Episode 84: Giftedness (Part 5): Navigating Giftedness in Marginalized Communities [featuring Sheldon Gay]
Dec 13, 2024
Show Notes
As a gifted, BIPOC individual, it can be uniquely challenging to navigate day-to-day experiences and find meaningful connections, especially prior to the discovery of giftedness.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, along with Sheldon Gay, an entrepreneur, podcast host, and the Vice-Chair of the neurodivergent-affirming non-profit, Umbrella US, discuss his unique perspective on being seen beneath our social masks, the societal impact of intellectual identity as a BIPOC human, and his personal self-discovery journey of giftedness.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover the complexities and societal pressures of intellectual identity and how they shape interactions and self-perception, as well as the struggle to find genuine connections while managing unique cognitive abilities.
- Gain a deeper understanding of the unique challenges faced by gifted individuals, especially within marginalized communities. Learn about the burden of expectations, code-switching as a gifted black man, and the journey of self-acceptance.
- Learn about Sheldon Gay's perspective on navigating biases in professional spaces, the importance of authenticity, and the impact of self-trust and empathy in both personal and professional settings.
As you explore the depths of your own identity and capabilities, remember the importance of self-trust and creating spaces where you can be your authentic self. Reflect on how societal expectations may have influenced your journey and seek communities that celebrate your unique experiences and perspectives.
More about Sheldon:
Sheldon Gay is an entrepreneur with a background in engineering and creating memorable customer experiences. He's worked in various fields, including healthcare, nonprofits and education-technology. In addition to growing multiple businesses, he is currently the Vice-Chair of the neurodivergent-affirming non-profit, Umbrella US. As a Black man who discovered later in life that he’s neurodivergent, he sees the world from a different angle than most. Due to his unique perspective, he knows all too well how it feels to be “the only one” in a room. After intense self-discovery work in his early 40s, he found answers to life-long questions and received freedom from burdens he'd carried since a child. Now, he uses his experiences to help others embrace their true selves and release their burdens as well. Sheldon helps his audiences become curious about their minds, combat loneliness through community and experience peace and joy through authenticity.
- Website: sheldongayisbugn.com
- Social Media: @imustbebugn and @imustbebugn.bsky.social
🎙️Listen to more episodes of the Divergent Conversations Podcast here
🎙️Spotify
🎙️Apple
🎙️YouTube Music
▶️ YouTube
A Thanks to Our Sponsors: iACTcenter, The Gifted Learning Lab, Resilient Mind Counseling, & Learning Nook
✨ iACTcenter:
The iACTcenter is an elite global ICF-accredited coach education and training program designed to train people to become confident, skilled, professional ADHD life coaches. They prepare aspiring coaches to make a living while making a difference in the lives of ADHDers and other neurodivergent people. Learn more at iACTcenter.com.
Julien Mussi, our student, passed away unexpectedly during our inaugural class in 2015. We offer Julien Mussi Scholarships to honor his passion for helping others. Visit: iACTcenter.com/scholarship
The Gifted Learning Lab is all about empowering parents to raise their gifted and 2e kids with confidence and less conflict. If you’re looking for real, neurodivergent-affirming strategies, you can check out Danika’s free email mini-course on reducing power struggles at giftedlearninglab.com/power. And for those wanting a deeper dive, her coaching program, 'Support Your Intense Gifted/2e Kid,' offers hands-on support for the journey.
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
💬 Join Divergent Conversations Underground
Divergent Conversations Underground is a space for messy conversations, real connection, and unfinished thoughts in a neurodivergent-affirming community. If you’d like to go deeper with us into more nuanced, searching conversations, join here: divergentconversations.substack.com
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we are continuing our giftedness series. And we have a really awesome guest, Sheldon Gay, who is an entrepreneur with a background in engineering and creating memorable customer experiences. He's worked in various fields, including healthcare, nonprofits, and education technology. In addition to growing multiple businesses, he is currently the vice chair of the neurodivergent-affirming nonprofit Umbrella US.
As a black man who discovered later in life that he's neurodivergent, he sees the world from a different angle than most. Due to his unique perspective, he knows all too well how it feels to be the only one in the room. After intense self-discovery work in his early 40s, he found answers to lifelong questions and received freedom from burdens he'd carried since a child. Now, he uses his experiences to help others embrace their true selves and release their burdens as well.
Sheldon helps his audiences become curious about their minds, combat loneliness through community, and experience peace and joy through awesome authenticity. Also, the host of the I Must Be Bug'n podcast. Can you tell the audience what that stands for? Because I was reading it on your podcast page earlier today.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for that introduction and just for being in this space. One thing, because otherwise my brain will be nagging me the entire time, just to clarify, it's Umbrella US. So, it's, you know, we're based here in the US, but yeah.
So, Bug'n is B-U-G-N where the B stands for black, U is for unidentified and underrepresented, and then the rest is gifted and otherwise neurodivergent. And so, that is my kind of playful reference to this kind of aha moment that I had where, you know, this duality of like, am I bugging or, you know, is there something here? And then, kind of owning that, and saying, yeah, no, I am, you know, black, gifted, and otherwise neurodivergent.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I think you've kind of already started here, but I will totally ask it.
SHELDON GAY: [CROSSTALK 00:04:00]-
MEGAN NEFF: We've been asking our guests, like, how do you enter this conversation? And I can already tell from your bio and from hearing you speak, you enter it with a lot of emotion that sounds like it comes from lived experience of discovering this about you at 40. But yeah, the conversation around giftedness, like, how did you get into this conversation? How do you enter this conversation?
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I get to this conversation because, you know, as you know, in my bio we talked about, you know, little over a year ago, you know, I was going through a lot, kind of, in my life where I was feeling stagnated in, you know, basically, every aspect. And so, I was like, "Look, I need to kind of dig in and really figure out what's this nugget, you know? I'm tired of feeling like I'm, you know, kind of spinning my wheels here."
And so, I began reading, you know, a lot of different books, watching, again, I probably wouldn't believe how many YouTube videos I watched. And initially, it was this idea of just, you know, I'll tell you, I knew I was an empath before I knew I was gifted. And so, a lot of my initial discovery was like, what does it mean to be somebody who, like, picks up on other people's energies and kind of follows these patterns that people are otherwise missing?
And that thread led me to, you know, other stuff like even in my entrepreneurial life, one of my biggest challenges is feeling like I'm working at a different pace than others. And being, like, really confused about that. Like, why is it that everybody I run into I feel like I'm running at a different pace? I don't feel like I'm, you know, Superman, or somebody, you know, that fell from the heavens, right? And so, how is it that this applies to me?
And so, through that discovery, particularly, a book called, or I'll just name one of the particular books, I should say, Living with Intensity. That was one of those books that, you know, spoke about positive disintegration and overexcitabilities where I was like, "Oh, wait, this is talking about me. Like, did you guys, like, set up a camera and, like, write this book about me, right?" Like, so, that's, you know, what really turned me onto it.
And then, being gifted, you know, not necessarily realizing at the time, but being gifted once we kind of get onto a topic that's of interest, then it's down the rabbit hole we go. And so, that's kind of what led me here is as I kept pulling back the layers I saw more and more of my true self, the self that I had been hiding for so long, the self that I had been denying for so long, the self that I hadn't been able to love in the way that I deserved for so long. And so, that's kind of what brought me here.
MEGAN NEFF: There's something you said that my brains kind of stick into, the idea that I'd been hiding. Like, I'm curious about that. Like, the hiding of the giftedness. Is that the part like, was there…
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I'm curious to hear more about that.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah. Man, you say that I come to this with a lot of emotion. This is a core piece of that. So, in general, a lot of gifted folks speak about, you know, kind of having to shrink for folks. A lot of that, you know, comes from other people's insecurity, if I'm being honest, right? And so, you step into a space, and actually, I'll give you the slightly less crude version of the analogy that I gave someone the other day, you know, particularly, after a bad dating experience, which maybe we'll go into.
But I said, you know, imagine being someone who every time you walk into a room everyone else belches. And so, you know that sound, that smell has nothing to do with you, but you're still having to be a part of it. You're still having to deal with it.
MEGAN NEFF: Actually, if you're an empath because then you're also picking it up. So, there's a reaction, and then you pick it up with so much intensity.
SHELDON GAY: Sparkle, super bright right now. Like, you're 100% on point, right? So, when you add, not every gifted person necessarily identifies as being empathic, but I certainly do. And so, that meant that, again, before it was ever about anything beyond, let's say, you know, picking up on other people's feelings, there was this thing of you walk into a room and it just feels overwhelming. And so, having to find a way to move into a space where you don't have that, feeling of overwhelm, where, again, without getting into any of the extra sparklines.
I tell people, one of my challenges has been, I can walk into a room, I can look at somebody, and just say, "Hey, what's up? What's wrong?" And they will be completely thrown off. And people don't like being seen past their mask, right? And so, it becomes a very awkward thing because I've been given this, you know, cape and kryptonite, you know, what I'm starting to call it, right? This cape and kryptonite around being able to pick up on those things. And so, when you know that it feels like it's hurting people, or it's causing, like, painful interactions, you find ways to kind of hide that.
And so, that becomes even more true when you think about, you know, having answers to questions, or, you know, being able to solve things quickly, particularly, because I think in that way, so much of how our society is set up is around… There is this anti-intellectualism piece, but what I really want to speak to that I don't necessarily hear a lot of people speaking to is the fact that we sort of [PH 00:10:20] DFI intellectual identity. And what I mean by that is everyone wants to feel that they are the smartest person in the room, but when it becomes clear that that isn't true, it causes a lot of pain for some folks if they're not in a secure place. And then, that energy has to go somewhere. And often, that's towards somebody who may be completely unsuspecting.
And I definitely felt that in a lot of ways as a child, especially. And then, like I said, you know, as an adult in work environments where your boss may not have the degrees that you have, may not be able to pick up on it. Like, again, we can go on any number of routes, you know, as it relates to that, but that's, yeah, like a lot of hiding. But that is not what I'm doing anymore. So, sorry, everyone.
MEGAN NEFF: I love the piece about kind of everyone wants to be the smartest in the room, and how intimidating it is to be around people who are highly, highly intelligent. And then, that can bring on human defenses, right?
SHELDON GAY: Absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: It was interesting, we've had lots of conversations about this in my community, and what a few people were sharing was the relief they felt the first time they were in a room and they realized other people were smarter than them. I was like, and I don't experience that because, I mean, sometimes I'm the smartest person in the room, but that would not be my normative experience. So, like, I definitely don't experience relief from that. But it was so interesting to be like, "Oh, that makes so much sense."
If you're always kind of, right, like masking the intelligence, the relief of, "I'm in a room and people are smarter than me." And that was such a flip for me because that wouldn't be my instinct.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, no, I love that you shared that because, you know, one of the things that people talk about was like, "Well, how could you not know Sheldon all these years, right? How could you not know that you were, you know, gifted or whatever?"
And, you know, to that point, one of the things that comes out of that is that there's this sort of… you've got to be able to be able to see outside of yourself in a way. But when you don't have a reference point that is properly, like, beyond where you are, or more so mirrored where you are, it can be very difficult. Like, I always thought that everybody had the same brain, right? That was kind of my kind of idea. But I just thought that, you know, maybe because of the schools that I went to, or maybe because I just sat down and read the books that I kind of just had that leg up in that way.
And then, again, when you get into these spaces where you see other people moving even faster, there's a lot of relief around that, you know, particularly, because, like I said, now you don't even feel like we have to bear the burden of carrying parts of the conversation, of, I mean, so many different things. And so, it is counterintuitive.
And that's, again, another reason why it's so hard to kind of discover because that's not where your brain would automatically go. It doesn't necessarily follow that you'd be relieved by that. So, instead, you feel broken, instead, you feel weird. Like, why is it that I feel this way in so many, you know, different aspects?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I can really relate to what you're saying, especially, when we're talking about intensity, and walking into the room, and immediately picking up on it. And it almost is like we almost have to dull ourselves down to kind of fit in, or belong, or adjust. And it's almost like turning the thermostat down, in a way, and not wanting to, like, really be authentic because there's so much judgment in that component, or there's so much pressure sometimes to be that person. So, it's mentally exhausting but it also keeps you small in a lot of ways too.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can talk a little bit about the pressure. I would say as well, you know, specifically, even as a black person, one of the challenges is, you know, some folks will be familiar with this concept of the talented 10. And if you're not familiar, you know, my black historians please don't, like, you know, get at me because I don't kind of give the full details. But what I would say is the talented 10 was essentially this concept of, you know, kind of the creme de la creme of the black community, the intellectuals. You know, just everybody, kind of being really successful. And that group was sort of asked to kind of lead the way, as it were.
And so, in many families, you can, you know, particularly, because how the systems of oppressions have structured, you know, life for a lot of marginalized communities where you're that one who gets out, you're that one who gets to do the thing. Well, when you get to be that one, there's a lot of pressure because everybody's looking to you to do the exceptional thing. And maybe you don't actually care about that thing. And so, now you may shrink to be like, "Okay, let me lower these expectations because I don't want to become a doctor, right? I don't care about that. I might have the mental capacity to do that, but it's not something I'm interested in."
And so, you shrink yourself so that people stop kind of holding you to that expectation, people stop asking me those questions. No one discovers, "Wait, why are you over here working in…" I used to work in retail. I'll tell you, I had a graduate degree, and I worked in retail. And for various different reasons. But imagine being in that position and people wondering, "Why are you here? You should be over there." And having to kind of navigate that conversation. And so, yeah, on many different levels, you can find all kinds of reasons to shrink.
MEGAN NEFF: That makes so much sense as you unpack that. And I really appreciate you adding that layer of nuance because that's been a theme a lot of people have talked about, kind of, the gap between, right, like what one "should be" capable of and then achievement. And how that gap can be confusing for a lot of folks.
But then, if you add in this layer of pressure, right? Like, of the people that we've talked to so far, none of them are like, "Like, I feel the pressure of representing a group, or I'm letting down my people." But adding in that pressure.
And then, I would assume there'd also be pressure from majority, like dominant culture as well that would be coming from both sides. Like, that just would make that experience around that gap of kind of cognitive ability and achievement so much more painful and so much more pressured.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and to that point, again, going back to the sort of the nexus of my journey here, I was working at great companies, but not being promoted, right? And so, now you're feeling this, you know, like you're running to this wall. You're like, "Well, I feel like I'm smart enough. I feel like I'm working hard enough, but I'm not getting there. Why is that?"
And at least a part of the truth, just as a an aside, is because of, again, how I showed up, and my need for complexity beyond kind of, like corporate kind of asked you to do this, like, this is your job. We give you these tasks. You go and do these tasks. But that doesn't really vibe with, you know, how my mind works. I'm kind of like, "That's cool. I can do that. But, like, I need a little bit more sparkle on top." And you know, that isn't necessarily always a vibe, particularly, like I said again, I'll say, as a black person, I've seen any number of instances where I show up in a space, the expectations for me are super, super low. When I exceed them, you would think, "Oh, this is great. Let's get this guy on it." No, no, that you know is an affront to many people's, you know, conscious or unconscious bias.
And so, now you're faced with people who are stealing your ideas, you're faced with people who are [INDISCERNIBLE 00:18:46] your ideas right because how dare you be the one who shows up and outshines me? I've been doing this for X number of years. And so, like I said, there's definitely a lot of that that gets added in there.
And I feel like I missed one piece that I was going to say, but yeah, I mean, I think because that's a really important point around that pressure.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I have a question, and I feel uncomfortable asking it, which makes me…
SHELDON GAY: No problem. Safe space, safe space.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, I've been thinking about this idea of both like gifted masking and code-switching. And correct me if this is a wrong assumption, but I would think as a black man with high IQ, gifted, like, there's the really terrible stereotype of black men not being smart. So, on one hand, I would think there'd be pressure to, like, break that stereotype. But then I would think, if you go into a room, especially, of white people, and you're the smartest one, that would invoke the white people defenses, which I would guess you also want to do.
So, is there this, like, double bind of like, I want to not play into the stereotype they might have of me of being unintelligent, but I also don't want to invoke their defenses by showing how intelligent I am. Is that [CROSSTALK 00:20:09]-
SHELDON GAY: Absolutely. No, yeah. And thank you for speaking to the discomfort around that. But I think you're perfectly fine and what you asked. And, like I said, again, you're definitely on point.
You know, I was even just the other day talking to somebody, like, you know, I was born in Philly, you know, North Philly, for those who are familiar, which, you know, most of North Philly is, you know, not well to do, I'll say, right? And so, you know, there's a cultural aspect to that, that when I come into a space that, again, right now, I'm wearing a hoodie, right? Like I tell people, like, I can wear a hoodie, I can wear a tux, right? I can talk to you as if we are, again, on a corner in North Philly, or I can talk to you as if we're, you know, in, you know, one of these ivory towers.
The problem becomes, you know, again, people's expectations when you walk into a room and what their level of comfort is. And that goes back to, like I said, the analogy that I gave, right? It's like, every time you walk into a room you're always assessing who's prepared for how I'm going to show up because how I show up is going to be so different than what is, you know, probably their expectation.
And that is tiring, that is a lot to deal with. That then, you know, turns into tension within me because anytime you feel like you're not being authentic, right, it creates this tension within yourself, which, again, all the energy has to go somewhere. And sometimes that will turn into an irritated response to what someone says to me.
And as a gifted person being highly sensitive to injustice, right? That's going to turn that dial-up. And so, yeah, there's definitely a lot of that that is at play. And so, you know, the beauty of having awareness now, though, is that I can do something about it. I can kind of know what's happening and I can know where to push. You know, when I talk to people I say, you know, know when to wear your hoodie.
And so, that analogy for me is a lot of times when people think about masking or navigating different spaces, they feel that they have to give a part of themselves up to go and be in a space that maybe doesn't look like them. And what I say is, know when to wear your hoodie. And that means you can bring your hoodie with you. But if I was going outside as 110 degrees, I'm not wearing my hoodie in 110 degrees, right? Like, I know that that's not the appropriate place with it. But I can keep it with me in case the temperature drops, right? So, it's always with me. I don't have to give it up. So, that fear of loss doesn't have to be there.
But then, when it's appropriate, I can know to go ahead and pull my hood up and have that conversation. And so, that's, like I said, a key part of it is just with my awareness now I know what I'm carrying with me, and I know that I don't have to give it up.
Before it was a lot of, like, I don't know what's going on, and I'm kind of, like, lashing out because I know there's injustice here, but I'm also frustrated with myself because I'm wondering, "Why are you so different?"
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like this discovery and the language you've developed has really helped you find a way to hold on to your identity while navigating these spaces thoughtfully.
And I think that, first of all, I just love that, know when to wear your hoodie. I think like that could be such a good mantra for, like, unmasking safely. Like, in the autism space, there's a lot of conversation around unmasking, and with that conversation has to be nuanced with safety. Of like, it's not always safe to unmask and-
SHELDON GAY: Absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: So, like, knowing when to wear your hoodie it's… But I get to have my hoodie with me as comfort. I just love that because you're prioritizing safety. You're not giving away part of yourself. It's actually a deep way of honoring it, of I'm honoring myself and honoring my safety in this moment.
SHELDON GAY: Yes, yeah. Thank you so much for bringing that word safety explicitly into the space because that's exactly what it's about, right? All of us in the broader, you know, neurodivergent community are familiar with those times when it's not safe to speak, you know, kind of let our ND flag fly, right? And so, acknowledging that that truth is there.
And again, particularly, you know, not to necessarily go down that rabbit hole too much, but I'll say that, one of the things that I appreciated about friend of mine who goes by Supernova Mama online, she is a black woman. She has many different neurotypes under her belt, but she, you know, identifies as autistic. And she has two autistic children. And she does a lot of work around helping people parent from a positive place, particularly, for neurodivergent children, autistic children.
And so, I bring her up because one of the things that she helped to bring awareness to is that the way that people from what I call melanated and marginalized communities, the way that, for example, we stim may be different. And those things that we do, maybe those things that are also already stigmatized.
And so, again, there's this extra layer of not being safe, not just like people may not like you, but now you're going to have to face the same, you know, BS that you're already facing in another way, but just amplify it now because you're not just black, you're a weird black person, right?
MEGAN NEFF: And again, not to go too deep down this rabbit trail [CROSSTALK 00:26:11] eventually. But I've learned so much from Tiff Hammond in this space as well Fidget and Fries talking about this. And I think this, especially, picks up heat when the ABA conversation comes up, of like, you can't have a conversation of pro-ABA or anti-ABA without talking about all of the systems of oppressions that we exist in.
And so, for example, a child learning to not stim, right? That can be a safety measure. And just we need so much space for complexity, which unfortunately, sometimes the way we're hosting conversations aren't able to hold a lot of space for complexity. But I feel like I've learned so much because the autistic advocacy space is historically a very white space. And so, I'm really appreciative of the voices that I've been learning from the last couple of years around, like, we just need so much more space for complexity in all of these conversations.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, no, thank you for saying that. And I agree. I mean, you know, again, let's call it out. I mean, one of the things that has been interesting for me as I move deeper into, again, the broader neurodivergent space is seeing how white it is. And so, it's another reminder of, again, these systems have impact across all the lines. And so, there's this beauty, and then there's this pain around that because it's like, "Dang, like, I was so excited I came into this room where I thought all my people were going to be."
And then, it's like, "Oh, wait." Like, I've got to fight this battle, right? I can't completely take off the, you know, justice warrior hat or whatever, right? Like, I've got to still do that.
But the beauty in it for me is now having my awareness, you know, having my able body, having all the things that I come with, even my male privilege, right? Like, bringing those things into the space and being able to advocate and say, "Look, you know, how I'm showing up is another voice and how I, you know, bring others into the space, this is how we kind of start to change the conversation to something that's much more inclusive." So, there's that opportunity to do that.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I have a question for you. In our email exchange, you had brought up a question that said something to the extent of like, is being gifted hard? And I just want to, like, put you on the spot asking just what your response is?
SHELDON GAY: Yeah. So, first, let me say that, again, I've listened to, you know, previous episodes. If you haven't listened, go back and listen. Absolutely fantastic episodes. And this was sparked by, you know, one of the questions, or one of the pieces of the discussion around, is it hard?
And, first of all, I love Emily, absolutely. Like, big, big fan, right? But what I would add to the discussion is to say that even what we've talked about so far, I think, that kind of definitively says that there are challenges with being gifted. And I know that that is talked about a little bit there. But I wouldn't want us to completely dismiss that because that's one of the biggest pains, is that, you know, as a gifted person it's hard to talk about the things that are challenging because everybody's like, "Oh, you can figure it out. You can do this. You know, you'll be fine." You know, cry me a river.
But it's like, I'm still a human being. I still have things that I need, that my needs aren't always met, particularly, because it may be that there is no one who can meet them, you know?
Again, you know, to bring up dating, for example, or even just friendship, right? But like, just broadly being in relationship with people. I think about it like this, and let me also say I don't believe that IQ is the definitive way of defining giftedness, right? Like, I'm not advocating for that at all. But if we said that this is a model that we're going to kind of just base this discussion around, if the top let's say even 5% or the there's a 5% I would say top. Like, let's not even put judgment on it. Let's say there's 5% of the entire population that can come close to understanding your lived experience, that means every 100 people that you meet, there's only four other people who have any chance of really being able to understand your lived experience and mirror you, which is a key part of being human, is having mirroring. Out of those four, how many of those will… It's not like every gifted person is the same, right? So, that number gets even smaller.
And fundamentally, what we're all running around here doing is looking for community. We're looking for connection. And so, this idea that this very minuscule group of people who can truly understand and mirror your lived experience, and that's really the core of what you're looking to do, like that's really, really hard. That's an existential burden that, again, is inescapable because there's no amount of books, or videos, or, I don't know, whatever you might give to people that then they may be more informed, but that won't necessarily, you know, bring out the curiosity, the depth, the complexity, the, you know, overexcitabilities, all those different things that won't necessarily empower them in that.
And so, you know, maybe that's a simple way of kind of putting it, is that, again, if we're all looking for connection, and, you know, off the bat that, like, your ability to connect with people is significantly diminished that's tough.
There's certainly a lot of privilege. And, you know, I want to say this piece, and we can talk about this a little bit more, if you want. But like, I do want to acknowledge the privileged part of it, one of the things, and I think I say this in some of my early episodes, and if I don't let me say it now, which is that one of the things that also emboldens me to speak up is that I know that despite all of that, me having a label of gifted is very different than a label of dyslexia, of autism, of whatever. And so, how I bring light and humanize our collective neurodivergent experience I leverage that. I leverage that. I totally get that it's challenging, but there's certainly a level of privilege that comes with it.
But I would absolutely say that, yeah, I mean, again, there's no way around. I can't feed anybody a book that would help them mirror me in that way. So…
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I-
MEGAN NEFF: And that, oh.
PATRICK CASALE: Sorry.
MEGAN NEFF: No, go ahead, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: I think you're spot on. I mean, from all the episodes we've done, the one thing that continues to stand out to me because I would identify as gifted, but twice-exceptional as an autistic, ADHD-gifted human, the relatability piece, right? Like you're saying, especially, when you break it down with like, if it's four out of every 100 people, right, or however many people, they already struggle to relate to people in general. Then you add on the complexity of it all, and it makes a lot of like fake it till you make it situations happen where you're like, "I want to fit in. I want to relate in some way. So, I'm going to, like, maybe dull myself out over here so that I could, like, put all of my mental energy into this one thing that people are either talking about or connecting around."
And then, you find yourself just feeling like vacant in a lot of ways and missed in a lot of ways. And it takes an enormous amount of mental energy to do that, like, song and dance over and over and over again.
SHELDON GAY: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, finding spaces where you don't have to carve out any piece of yourself is a blessing. You know, there are a couple of different places where I've experienced that. And I will name this school because I love this school so much for a lot of different reasons. But there's a school that I attended when I was younger in the DC area called Lowell. And I tell people it's my favorite school. There's not even a close second at all because when I was there, I never had to feel like, and this is like elementary school, I never felt like I had to carve out a piece of myself. I could always be my authentic self. And the curriculum there as well is much more experiential, right?
And so, it's not just about, you know, "Okay, kids, we're going to learn about, you know, whatever, math today." And go just kind of rote memory kind of stuff. It's no, "Like, let's bring this math alive. Let's bring the science alive for people."
And so, having that experience, even at a young age, where I was like, "Yes, this is what I've been waiting for. Like, I don't just want to sit down and read a book. I want to actually, like, get my hands dirty and see all the different, you know, colors here." Going through your life and realizing how rare that is, it's tough. But when you find it, you know, you really, really get to appreciate it.
But again, that's something that, you know, it's tough. And the amount of energy that it takes to, you know, be comfortable in spaces that aren't going to meet all of those needs as it were, that's an unspoken truth.
And I'll say this this fast and really quickly because you just reminded me one of the experiences. I've always been gifted, right? Like, this is who I've always been. I've received a label. I received a level of understanding. And I can tell you those first couple of months, it was like this weird emergence from a cocoon experience, like literally, right? Because, all of a sudden, I started to hear the things, and see the things, and taste the things that had always been there in the background, but I had no way to really understand what the heck it was.
And so, a lot of this is these unmet needs. A lot of this is, as well, these learned patterns of shrinking that were there that now my body was like, you know, "I don't want to do this." Or you're realizing how much weight you've been carrying, so your body, like, literally wants to fall asleep because you're realizing now you're aware of this big boulder that's on your shoulders, you know? It's kind of like, you know, like, you know, they say the adrenaline or whatever, when you get hurt. And once that wears off all of a sudden it's like, "Oh shoot." You know? So, like, that's really what that was like for me. So, hopefully, that [INDISCERNIBLE 00:39:42] but…
MEGAN NEFF: I'm having lots of associations, so I'm going to try to rein one of them in.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, yeah, go ahead, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, it's so interesting to me. And one of the ways that you're different from the other guests we've had so far, as far as you know, and I know you said you're open to it, like you're gifted, but not otherwise neurodivergent. So, it's been so interesting to hear about your process and how closely it parallels my autism discovery process. And like, the process I tend to see, in general, around an autism or ADHD discovery, around, like, the liberation, the like, I can finally take my needs seriously, therefore I can care for my needs. But also, the heightened sense of like, all of a sudden we become aware of our sensory issues that we've perhaps been associating from. And it's like, life all of a sudden it's like, "Wait, I don't know how to life anymore." Like, it just goes really hard all of a sudden because now I have language and awareness.
So, it's just so interesting to me because I've been curious about this as we've gone through this. I'm like, okay, so far we've talked about the 2e experience, but what is the gifted neurodivergent experience? And not that there's just one, but…
So, it's really interesting to hear how profound this discovery was for you, and how it did similar things, of all of a sudden things felt hard, but also there was, like, permission to not have to carve out parts of yourself in the way you've been doing, not have to hide. Yeah, it parallels it.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah. Sorry. You want to say something else?
MEGAN NEFF: No, I was just [CROSSTALK 00:41:12]-
SHELDON GAY: [CROSSTALK 00:41:12]. No, no, no. Okay, no, no, no. So, what you reminded me of is an analogy that I gave folks early on, which is that, it was like waking up in a spaceship. Like, I literally felt like I woke up in a spaceship and all of a sudden you see like all these flashing lights, like buttons are all over the place, and you're like, "What the heck?" Right? Where before in my life I was told that I'm… Or I felt that I was in a car, I had a car. And so, you know, life tells you, you know whatever, you change your oil, you, you know, rotate your tires, you do all the different things.
And so, I'm doing those things, but it's not having the same impact that it's having for others. And I'm like, "I think I'm doing this right." Like, I'm following the same steps everybody else is, but it's not having the same impact. And then, when you wake up in the spaceship you realize, "Oh, I don't even have time." And that's why that didn't work for me.
And so, it was this beautiful thing of like, I don't need to worry about that. I can let that expectation go. I cannot even try to worry about that. I can then say, let me take care of all these things that are flashing now, get those things in order in the way that works for me.
And, you know, even now, like, I've started to listen to things at higher speed. So, like, if I listen to a podcast, like, I'll listen to it at a higher speed, where before I might have felt weird about doing that or any number of things, but now I'm like, "No, like, this is how I prefer to listen to things." But it also makes me realize, "Well, shoot."
Like, actually, literally the other day, it was the weirdest experience because I moved back down to like, you know, regular speed, and it sounded like it was in slow motion, literally. But I was like, but I was like, "But this is the, you know, the normal speed." So, again, just having those kinds of realizations about yourself, and then kind of like, how you're operating within the world is a blessing, so…
MEGAN NEFF: I love the spaceship. I love a good [CROSSTALK 00:43:12] so I love the, like, "I thought I was driving the car. It's a spaceship. Turns out it needs different care."
So, I, actually, think that segues well into our next question. I wanted to ask you about your thoughts, about, like, how self-care or therapy might be different for a gifted person. And thinking about the spaceship, it's like, well, yeah, a spaceship needs different maintenance, different care, a different approach.
SHELDON GAY: Yes. Thank you so much for bringing this. This is, man, so again, going back to this whole thing of, like, this journey to self-awareness, one of the most frustrating things is I was going to therapy. I was going in and sitting in therapy, and I was doing work, but I felt like I wasn't making enough progress. Like, I felt like I was kind of just like, "Okay, like I'm here because it's healthy to do." But not really feeling the benefits.
And some of that is because the ways in which I was showing up, let me say a lot of the stuff is because there was a lot of pathology that was applied to things that were just natural for me, right? You know, a simple example is catastrophizing, you know, sure that can happen when someone's kind of just trying to read and too much into the leaves and dah dah dah dah. But if you actually have a mind that can see patterns, and that's what's actually happening, then a therapist telling you to stop doing that can make you feel a certain type of way, and can also be unhelpful to you because no my brain's really seeing these things.
And one of my biggest traumas in life, in fact, is around me seeing things, people telling me that I'm bad for saying it, you know, pointing that thing out, or that I'm completely wrong, and then coming back, and like the truth being what I said years ago, or months ago, or however long ago, and having to live through that loop, like constantly on that loop.
And so, therapy can be a challenge if someone's not aware of what's happening. It can also be challenging if, I mean, again, you sit in a room, and you're pouring out all the things that are inside your head. But if inside your head is this like mega kaleidoscope of thought, right? Therapy, all right, what were you going to say?
PATRICK CASALE: It almost makes me not want to say it out loud [CROSSTALK 00:45:32]-
SHELDON GAY: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:45:32].
PATRICK CASALE: …where I've sat as a therapy client thinking like having that mega kaleidoscope, I love that. I'm like, I don't think I want to put any of this out there, like, because I know how it's going to sound, but I know this is also happening, right? And those associations are so real. I'm so glad you named that of seeing those patterns of like, potential worst-case scenario in all scenarios [CROSSTALK 00:45:57]-
SHELDON GAY: Mm-hmm(affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: …to a tee. And that means, like, friends can say, like, "There's a downer. You're always thinking so cynically. You're always, like, thinking worst-case scenario." And I'm like, but I see the pattern. Like, I see where this is going 10 steps ahead. Like, this is [INDISCERNIBLE 00:46:13].
SHELDON GAY: That's exactly it. And so, again, you know, let me shout out my therapist, obviously, by not by name, but like he knows who he is, and if he does listen this to this episode, like, I tell him all the time, thank you so much. Like, I even feel the emotions. Being able to work with him is a truly, truly special experience. If you can find someone who can digest and at least humanize that, you know, mega kaleidoscope that you got going on, like it is a special thing because I don't know if you've all watched this movie. It's on Netflix, it's called Stutz, where, what is this? I'm bad with names. I think Jonah Hill speaks to his therapist. It's like a movie about him speaking with his therapist and like his therapist's wife. But long story short, like the point is that, you know, if you're in therapy and you're lying, you're keeping a piece of you hidden, you can't really make progress, right?
But, again, going back to this thing of, like, no amount of reading will give them that ability to fully grasp, particularly, if you're showing up in spaces, it's so hard to find a black therapist. It's so hard to find, I mean, sure, a gifted therapist, right? Like, when you're showing up with all these things that you need, and that person on the other side that you're paying good money is not giving it to you, you're not able to get what you need. And it's not through effort all the time, right? It's not because you just didn't try. I tried to pour it all out, and I didn't get what I needed. And sometimes I got something bad in return. And so, yeah, that definitely is [INDISCERNIBLE 00:48:08]. Therapy can be really challenging, or one of the reasons, right? [INDISCERNIBLE 00:48:10].
PATRICK CASALE: I think, like, there's not a lot as painful as like just feeling unseen, especially, by someone supposed to be, like, unbelievably trained, and skillful, and well versed, all of the things, and even uses some of the buzzwords or language that you want. And you go through the entire process of finding this person, and then you just feel like you just don't see me at all. Like, I can't be my authentic self because you just don't get it, yeah.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, I left many sessions very frustrated. And again, because the dynamic that's set up is that this therapist is supposed to be the one that, like, has the answers, and so you're the one that's messing up, you're the one that's broken, you're the one that's got to go figure out why is it that you're feeling this way? And so, now, it's like, no. I know what's happening. I know myself. I know that I'm not just, you know, wanting to see the bad things or whatever, right? Like, just the way that my mind works. In a similar way, I can see lots of the great things, right? It's just a pattern. And so, having that space to feel seen is super powerful.
MEGAN NEFF: Also, reminds me of self-trust, which I think has come up a few times in this series. And that's a topic that comes up a lot, in general, in neurodivergent later-in-life identified spaces of just how hard it is to trust ourselves because of the disconnect, because of not being mirrored, because of the invalidation. So, even the ability to, like, have that experience and to be able to trust yourself, of like, I'm not getting out of this therapy what I think I should be, that's really hard for a lot of people.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, yeah. That self-trust piece, I mean, daily, daily, daily. I tell people I've got this, like, virtual vision board, as it were, it's not even necessarily the perfect word for it. The bottom line is that there's a list of, like, Google slides that I have where I read off to myself to remind myself of different things. And one of the biggest things is to trust myself. And that's, like, spelled out in multiple different ways, like to trust myself because I spent so much of my life doing the complete opposite. I'm like, "Okay, Sheldon, like, you know, here you are trying to pull your magic again, right? And it's like, but it's not magic, Sheldon. This is not, you know, a random happenstance that you're able to do this thing, or see this thing, or, you know, whatever, right? Like, trust that what you're seeing is what it is, trust that you can make sense out of what you're experiencing, and not, you know, beat yourself up about it. And love yourself from that space."
MEGAN NEFF: I love that that's part of your vision board. I think all of us could absolutely benefit from cultivating more self-trust.
SHELDON GAY: It's really, really helped me. So, yeah, please, you know, even if it's a little Post-it note for yourself, like, I definitely recommend it.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think that ties into what you started with, too. With, like, being an empath. I think when we're kind of hyper cued into other people's signals, it can also make it hard to, like, know what's us and what's others, and to get [INDISCERNIBLE 00:51:23] across. And there's so many layers to trusting ourselves, even from like, whose emotion is this right now that I'm feeling?
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, yeah, whose emotion is this and whose burden is it to carry it, right? Those are, like, two really key points. Because, you know, again, if you walk into the… Like, I'm at the point now where I am much, much better about drawing that boundary.
And so, again, even if someone else's emotions takes up the room or is just kind of very present in the room, I'm very clear about I'm not abandoning them if I don't tend to those needs, I'm not, you know, doing something bad to them. It's not that I'm uncaring. It's just that that's their thing to carry, and I can't solve that for them no matter how much I see, you're feeling this way. Like, one of the things that I read to myself, I'm trying to remember it off the top of my head, but I forgive myself for using empathy as an excuse for being other people's punching bag, right?
Because, again, I know what's going on within you. I want to help you. I see. Like, let me help. But there's, like, boxing with me. And it's like, "Sheldon, you got to step outside of that boxing ring. It's not for you to fight that battle. They've got to do that work for themselves."
You can offer that space, that safe space, that container that. If they're open to feedback, like, sure, but otherwise, that's their stuff. Sit it in their lap and let them run with it.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm having a little bit of an aha moment. And we'll see if this idea sticks or not.
SHELDON GAY: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: But earlier in the conversation, we were talking about like the statistics, and it's hard to find people that can mirror and connect. And if you're in any kind of neuro minority, that would be true.
And I'm just now thinking to how so many of us adapt to disconnected by becoming people pleasers. And I'm thinking about how often I would tune into someone else's rhythm. And I wonder if it's partly because it was so unusual for me to feel in sync with another human? If it's like my way of accommodating of, well, I can sink into your rhythm, and then, for a moment I'm going to feel rhythmically connected to another human. But the problem is, I'm always sinking into other people's rhythms to feel that connection.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, no, that is a light bulb, like, beautiful light bulb. Because, yeah, again, when you have that ability it's like a, if I were a multi-talented dancer, right? Like, okay, I'm going to salsa over here. I'm going to, you know, whatever, do hip hop dance over here, and not like that famous like, you know, video of the woman. Anyway, if you all know what I'm talking about, you know, you know that meme.
But you know, maybe I'm doing all these different dances but what's my dance, right? Like, and if I never tune to what dance I want, I'm going to feel that loss consciously or otherwise. And so, yeah, finding that way to, you know, know when to let other people dance by themselves, as it were, can be really, really powerful.
MEGAN NEFF: Interestingly, I actually spent a lot of high school dancing by myself in my room. I now know it's like, "That was one of my favorite songs." It's like, I would put on music and I would dance for hours.
SHELDON GAY: I'm so glad you said that because that was definitely one of the things that Supernova Mama talked about, is just a different dancing, which, again, in a larger conversation can be had around, for me, I'm very passionate as well as helping, you know, melanated and marginalized communities create more awareness around this because some of the language that we've been using for years has actually been referring to neurodivergence, but we've been calling it other things. We've been looking at it in other ways.
And it's sad, but interesting to see times when people are kind of pointing this stigmatized finger at others for neurodivergence explicitly. And then, if you held up a mirror and they could see themselves, and be like, "Dude, like you're one of us." Right? Like, so, you know, but the language that we use, if we can find ways to, like I said, help people create that awareness and that love, the most important thing is for people to be able to safely love themselves from that space because otherwise the shame and all that stuff starts to creep in, and then, you know, no progress can be able to be made.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, this is kind of an abrupt pivot, but I'm looking at our time and knowing it's about up. And you had said something in our exchange that got my interest, which was more specifically around dating while gifted, which I have some thoughts about where you might go with that, but I'm really curious, kind of, yeah, what has been your experience? What are your thoughts about maybe how giftedness impacts dating?
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, it's a journey. I mean, all dating is a journey. All of this, kind of, like, uncomfortable dance of figuring each other out is a journey. But it's also… Even going back to what I was talking about earlier, one of the challenges is, I'll give you a couple of different things that are really kind of interesting that stick out to me.
One is, first of all, you can be pathologized. I mean, I know the person that I'm talking about will not listen to this. But I went on a date and I literally had this person, you know, due to their own insecurities get uncomfortable and say, "Well, oh, I should have known, because your name is Sheldon just like the guy from Big Bang Theory."
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, shit.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah. And I'm like, "Wow, I don't consider myself to be very much like that part." I don't watch Big Bang Theory, but I watch Young Sheldon. But so, I can't necessarily speak 100% to that. But if it's Young Sheldon-
MEGAN NEFF: You know, Sheldon. I know Sheldon is like very kind of not masochistic. That's not the word I'm looking for, misogynistic. Like, you [INDISCERNIBLE 00:57:54].
SHELDON GAY: Okay, yeah, no, that, yeah, thank you for saying that. That makes me feel even better about the universe, you know, pivoting away from that. But that's the kind of stuff that, you know, just in general, right? When you show up, and again, you have all this complexity going on. Like, just a simple question in dating early on, especially, it can be overwhelming for people. But again, where does that energy go? Are you dealing with someone who's secure enough to just say, "Hey, like, I didn't quite grasp all of that. Can we talk?" You know, whatever. Or is it somebody who's like, "You're trying to browbeat me." And you're like, "I just shared like what I thought was a really cool insight, right?
And so, that can be difficult. So, now, again, going back to this whole thing of hiding, it's like, I've got this whole big thing here? How do I carve off this little piece?
But as well, like, one of the things I'm always mindful of, too, is I don't want to ever sell anybody across from the short, right? So, there's that dance as well. It's like, if I've got this big packet of stuff going on and I give you this little piece, what does that feel like on the other end? And as well, it may be a missed opportunity. They might have [INDISCERNIBLE 00:59:12] man, I wish he had more to say. And I'd be like, "Shit." You know, like, there's this really interesting piece of it.
What I would also say is, you know, their dating can be hard because, ultimately, with romantic dating, again, you're looking for that super intimate and without even getting to, like I said, the physical aspect what intimacy is, but like just true, expansive intimacy, you want to be able to be across from somebody who is able to mirror you. And again, that can be difficult, and you can get bored, not because you dislike the person, right? Not because you don't enjoy time with them at all, but now you're always kind of in the back of your mind, like, how much further can this joy ride go?
And so, yeah, whether it's kind of dodging the insecurities that everybody deals with, but then again, just kind of gets amplified because, you know, as I said earlier, with the thing around how we deal with intelligence as a core piece of our identity. Like, it's hard for people to detach from intelligence as a core piece of their identity. And so, when you question that, it can get really nasty in dating experiences. And so, yeah, I mean, those are some of the challenges.
But the last thing I would say, I always like to leave with a good piece of it. It could be really beautiful because then when you enter in spaces where someone does have that capacity, or at least, that curiosity, you have something to offer that is distinctly different, like distinctly distinctly different than what any of the other people that they probably have encountered will offer. And so, there's a lot of beauty in there and finding that match. So…
MEGAN NEFF: I keep finding parallel to autism, probably, because it's my reference point, but it's really interesting. I hadn't thought about that with giftedness. Like, so with autism, there's often this experience of like, I either answer with one-word or two-word answers. Or like, I give you all the context and I say too much. So, it's like, either say too little or too much.
And I think with a gifted, complex brain, it would be a very similar experience of I can either give you a two-word example, or I can let you in on my kaleidoscope. And that's a really interesting kind of shared experience.
The other thought I had when you were talking, I feel like I've seen this tension pull out with folks in general. Like, people with complex minds, I think, on one hand, we like finding another complex soul, but then sometimes that can feel like too much. So, then sometimes I think we gravitate toward partners who will like balance out our complexity, but then they can't see our complexity. So, I often find like, and I feel like I did that in my dating of I would go between like finding someone who could match my complexity, but then it's a very like, intense, kind of heavy, existential dynamic, or I'd find someone who could balance out, but then I'd get bored. And it's like, yeah, there's…
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, no, that is definitely the dance. And I think for me, finding someone, again, regardless of whether or not they identify or recognize what might be going on with them or whatever. But finding someone who, for me, is curious and who honors and respects what's coming from within me is super, super important. You know, I say if you don't understand something, but you're curious about it, like that, for me is like a big, big, big thing because none of us is going to know every single thing, right? There's always going to be something that you're going to be something that you're like, "Oh, I don't… Tell me more about that." Like, that's a kind of a core thing about dating, right? It's like being curious about the other person, but finding people who, again, are willing to go beyond kind of that normal layer that most people say, like, "I'm curious about your favorite color. I'm curious about your…" And I don't mean to like, down play the like-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, they're curious about your mind. And I think that's not to tie the conversations too closely between therapy and dating because that's uncomfortable. But also, I think a good therapist is curious about your mind. And I think same thing in a partner, it's someone who is curious about your mind, curious about your experience. And curiosity, like, spans across IQ, it spans across neurology. And so, that is to me, like if I were to look at kind of human characteristics and values I look for curiosity is such a big one for me.
SHELDON GAY: Yeah, no, I love that you pointed out, again, you don't need the same exact like level of sparkles, right? It's just across neurotypes. And it doesn't have to come from the same angle. So, that genuine curiosity is gold.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think we talked before we started recording that we felt like sparkles of ideation. And I think it's partly I could tell off the bat that you are a very curious human. And I can feel that in how you talk about ideas. And yeah, I really appreciate that.
SHELDON GAY: Thank you.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, where can folks find you if they're wanting to learn more from you? I know you do speaking and you've got a podcasts. But yeah, where can folks find more of what you do?
SHELDON GAY: Yeah. So, the best place to go is my website, which is sheldongayisbugn.com. And there you can find my podcast, where you can actually listen to it directly from the site, or listen to it from your favorite podcast player.
And then, you can also learn about my speaking, you know, business, so that you know, I can come and speak to your job, to your university, to your elementary school, or whatever, right? About how we build community and honor and humanize, you know, what I call unconventionally brilliant minds.
And then, you can also follow me on IG, @imustbebugn on IG. And so, yeah, that's the best place to go. And please do reach out, you know, if you have a question, if you have a curiosity. Definitely, if you have curiosity, I'm always down for more curiosity. So, please do reach out.
PATRICK CASALE: Awesome, and all of that information will be in the show notes so that you have easy access to everything that Sheldon just listed. Really great [CROSSTALK 00:06:04].
SHELDON GAY: Sorry, one last thing. I would be remiss if I didn't say, I also have some merch there some, some neuro-inclusive merch and intersectional inclusive merch on there too. So, please go check that out. So, anyway, sorry, go ahead, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: No, good for everyone to know. And again, all those links and information will be in the show notes so you have easy access to it. Thanks for listening to Divergent Conversations. Sheldon, thanks for being on this giftedness series. It's been a great conversation.
SHELDON GAY: Thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: Really enjoyed it a lot. To everyone listening new episodes are out on Fridays and all major platforms and YouTube. And you can like, download, subscribe, and share.
