Episode 83: Giftedness (Part 4): Parenting 2e Kids: High Standards and Emotional Needs [featuring Dr. Danika Maddocks]
Dec 05, 2024
Show Notes
If you are the parent of a gifted or twice-exceptional (2e) child, you know the unique challenges and pressures these children face.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, and Dr. Danika Maddocks, a gifted/2e parent coach and owner of The Gifted Learning Lab, discuss the complexities of raising and supporting gifted and 2e kids, including the internal and external pressures, the impact of growth vs. fixed mindsets, and the innovative strategies that can support these exceptional children.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Gain insights into the internal and external pressures that gifted and 2e children face, and how these can lead to intense emotional and psychological distress despite their apparent successes.
- Explore the influence and impact of a growth mindset vs. a fixed mindset, especially how understanding and fostering the right mindset aids in developing resilience and coping mechanisms for gifted children.
- Learn practical, neurodiversity-affirming strategies to support a gifted or 2e child's emotional and cognitive development, including effective validation techniques and the importance of environmental fit.
As you consider the best ways to support and nurture the gifted children in your life, remember to look beyond labels and standards. Focus on creating environments where their unique abilities can thrive, allowing them to grow and develop a healthy sense of self.
More about Danika:
Dr. Danika Maddocks is a gifted/2e parent coach and owner of The Gifted Learning Lab. She helps parents let go of standard parenting pressures and build a unique family life that actually works for their kid and themselves. She has supported gifted and twice-exceptional kids, teens, and their families for over 15 years as a teacher, therapist, school consultant, assessment provider, and coach. Her work is also informed by her personal experiences growing up gifted, being a late-identified autistic adult, and raising a young gifted/2e kid.
- Danika has a free email mini-course called Reduce Power Struggles with Your Gifted/2e Kid. All parents want to feel like they're on the same team as their kid or teen, but gifted/2e parents often feel stuck in negotiations and power struggles, no matter what parenting advice they try. In this free, 5-day mini-course, parents will learn practical strategies to prevent, reduce, and defuse power struggles with their gifted/2e kid or teen. Access the free course: giftedlearninglab.com/power
- Website: giftedlearninglab.com
- Instagram: instagram.com/giftedlearninglab
- Facebook: facebook.com/giftedlearninglab
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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: The Gifted Learning Lab, Resilient Mind Counseling, & Learning Nook
The Gifted Learning Lab is all about empowering parents to raise their gifted and 2e kids with confidence and less conflict. If you’re looking for real, neurodivergent-affirming strategies, you can check out Danika’s free email mini-course on reducing power struggles at giftedlearninglab.com/power. And for those wanting a deeper dive, her coaching program, 'Support Your Intense Gifted/2e Kid,' offers hands-on support for the journey.
Resilient Mind Counseling is a neurodivergent-affirming therapy and medication management practice operated in North Carolina. We specialize in supporting neurodivergent individuals, especially Autistic ADHDers, the LGBTQ community, and the BIPOC community. For mental health therapy, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield, UnitedHealthcare, MedCost, Aetna, and self-pay. For medication management, we accept Blue Cross Blue Shield and self-pay. We can see clients all throughout North Carolina. If you are looking for medication management services, you need to be within a 60-mile driving distance to the office in case you need to come in. All of our clinicians identify as either Autistic, ADHD, or Autistic-ADHD, or have some form of neurodivergence or are neurodivergent-affirming. We strive to create a neuro-inclusive healthcare community. You can text or call our main line to get started at 828-515-1246 or visit our website at resilientmindcounseling.com. We look forward to helping you along your healing journey.
Explore the power of the neurodivergent community with the Neurodivergent Insights Learning Nook—a neurodiverse space that welcomes all neurotypes. Our community fosters personal growth with access to workbooks, eBooks, workshops, and more. We also host body double sessions, parent gatherings, and monthly live events. Clinicians can join our special tier for exclusive resources and networking. Limited to 20 new members monthly. Enroll at neurodivergentinsights.com/membership. Scholarships available.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, and mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we have Dr. Danika Maddocks, who is a gifted 2e parent coach and owner of The Gifted Learning Lab. They are also a sponsor of this giftedness series, which is amazing.
She helps parents let go of standard parenting pressures and build a unique family life that actually works for their kid and themselves. She has supported gifted and twice-exceptional kids, teens, and their families for almost over 15 years as a teacher, therapist, school consultant, assessment provider, and coach. Her work is also informed by her professional experiences growing up gifted, being a late-identified autistic adult, and raising a young, gifted twice-exceptional kid. Welcome to the show.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I've been learning a lot from this series, so excited to dive in.
So, the way we've been kind of starting each of these conversations is just by hearing, like, how you entered this conversation? What's your context for this conversation? Kind of, how did you get interested in supporting 2e humans?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, that's a great question. So, I think for me, my conceptualization of, like, what twice-exceptionality is, and just where I come to this topic has changed a lot over time.
So, I was actually identified, like I was tested when I was seven because I was really bored in school. And was identified as gifted at that time. And my mom shared that information with me. And then, it became, actually, like a big part of the family conversation when I was growing up with me, and my mom, and my brother, mostly. And that had pros and cons. But it was like a big piece then of my identity and my framework for understanding my experience. My mom would often say like, "Well, that's because you're gifted." Right? Or-
MEGAN NEFF: And was your brother gifted?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Brother's probably also gifted, but he was the type of kid who refused to answer the easy questions, and so didn't earn a high score. And then, the psychologist asked him the hard questions, and he got them right. So, I actually don't know.
MEGAN NEFF: Like family dynamics, it was like…
DANIKA MADDOCKS: We're all gifted.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, well, I was curious because you were like, it became part of the family conversation. So, I was curious if it was like, Danika is gifted, and therefore [CROSSTALK 00:02:54]-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: No. No, it was more like we're gifted. I mean, the problematic parts are like everyone else is dumb, so like life is really hard that, you know, like we're smarter than everyone. And I think even [CROSSTALK 00:03:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: So, there's some, like, elitism in the family?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Totally, totally, yes.
MEGAN NEFF: First of all, like, thanks for acknowledging, I feel like that would be a hard thing to admit that that's…
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, well, it comes up so much in the giftedness space, I think, like, concerns about that. And I think it's really important to me to talk about giftedness as being just like it's useful information. And I work with a lot of families, and parents, and kids, right? So, it's like, it's useful to know that about your kid because your kid's brain does work differently and your parenting experience still's different for a reason. Your kid's not better than other kids, they're just different, right?
And I think even when I was a kid and growing up, like, I never liked that talk. You know, I was always sort of like, "I don't know." Also, I think, right, fast forward however many years, like at 39 I was like, "Hey, I think I'm autistic." But as a kid, I was like, "Well, I'm not better at everything." Or, like, "No, I'm not. That's not true. Like, that's not accurate."
But at the same time, a lot of the pieces did resonate with me, where it's like, well, I do learn faster than my classmates. I'm ready to move along. Like, I understand things that other kids don't seem to understand. But I do think, also, that a lot of the autistic experiences I had were attributed to giftedness by my mom, like misattributed to giftedness, right?
MEGAN NEFF: But I bet that would be a common defense of like if there's a difference, let's attribute it to this positive thing.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: So common. Yes, yes. And I think that's where the ableism and elitism comes in, of like, that's not a disability, right? It's a gift. So, like, it's part of your amazing brain.
PATRICK CASALE: You've talked about this, but it almost makes me feel like the HSP conversation around autism and how we often, well, not we, how a lot of people in society often say, like, "I'm just highly sensitive." Because they don't want to potentially acknowledge the autistic lens or diagnoses.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Totally, yes, yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons that it's so hard to identify twice-exceptionality is because there is a lot of talk around gifted people, a lot of overlap in the gifted profile and the HSP profile, right? And the gifted kids are highly sensitive and emotionally intense.
But I think I don't know that there's actually research to back that up, right? But I think a lot of times, that's probably contributed to, or that's probably related to other forms of neurodivergence that are being pushed aside or that people are unaware of. You know, I don't think it would have ever crossed my parent's awareness to even consider that about me as a child, right? That just wasn't in the societal awareness at that time.
But, yeah, it's interesting because my kind of lived experience was very much, like, interested in giftedness, interested in understanding that about myself. I was like a highly compliant kind of stereotype of a gifted kid, where I, like, went to school and I was like, "Great, I'm just going to get 100% and all the extra credit." Like, I can do that. That sounds fun.
But, like, whereas my brother was like, "Screw this. This is bullshit. Like, why would I do that?" So, I was also very interested in, like, wow, we're both so smart and this is so different for the two of us. And I became really interested in just, like, how different settings are or are not a fit for different people.
And then, I guess my dad told me that, like, when I was 15 I was like, "I'm going to grow up and be a teacher for gifted kids." And that I was really interested, like, even as a kid, I would say, like a lifelong special interest as kids, like as a kid, I was fascinated by other kids. I just find kids fascinating and kind of how their brains develop. So, I think I was always interested in other gifted kids and kids with special talents.
And then, when I went into education, I was really drawn to kids who seemed very bright, but like, really struggled in school. And like, didn't like to be there, or had big emotional meltdowns, or would just like cry and get overwhelmed. And when I was in education, these were the kids that I just adored, and thought were great, and wanted to connect with, and figure out how to make the environment work for them. And was really passionate about that.
And then, I decided to go into school psychology for my doctoral training. And in the first year, we had a class on educational disabilities in the school. And we each did like a presentation on, like a form of, like, you know, one of the educational disability categories, plus there was one on twice-exceptionality. And I don't know if that's the first time I came across the term, but that's when I did like a deep dive on, like, what is twice-exceptionality. And I wrote a paper for it. And we had to propose a research study. And I ended up actually doing that research study.
And, like, my study was all about, like, the debate around identification criteria for how you can tell if someone is gifted with a learning disability. So, then I got really into, like, the whole concept of, like, missed identification, and how often these kids are missed. And that was in 2013 or 2014. So, since then, I've been just like, fascinated by twice-exceptionality. I always asked to work with the gifted kids at all of my sites during training. So, I got, mostly, I would say twice-exceptional kids who were there for therapy or assessment.
And then, when I eventually finished my training and opened my private practice, my private practice is focused on gifted and twice-exceptional kids and families. And then, I created The Gifted Learning Lab to work with parents of emotionally intense gifted 2e kids, yeah. And then, two years ago-
MEGAN NEFF: This is a special interest.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: It's a special interest, like, and it's developed over time. Yeah, and then, of course, it's hilarious that, like, only two years ago was I, like, "Wait a second, could I be twice-exceptional? Is that why this is so interesting. And these kids have always made complete sense to me? Maybe, like…"
PATRICK CASALE: That's amazing. And I also have some envy. I'm always, like, envious of people who have known exactly what they've wanted to do for most of their lives, or have been, like, really clear on that interest. But can you deep dive the 2e component here for our listeners and really share what that means? And, yeah, give some context to that.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, I think, like, at the most just kind of like definitional level, right? That not everyone agrees entirely. But, like, being 2e is like being twice-exceptional with exceptional being like an exception to the norm, not meaning amazing. Although, some people are like, "I like it. I'll be twice-exceptional. That sounds great. Like, I'm just incredible." Right? So, it's gifted. So, it's like that difference from the norm, plus having, I used to say like a disability. You could say another form of neurodivergence, right? And another form of being different than typical or the middle of the bell curve.
So, I think, probably the most common twice-exceptionalities are folks who are gifted and autistic, gifted with ADHD, gifted and dyslexic, or some other learning disability. Some folks might be gifted with sensory processing differences, but not meet the criteria, right, for something else. And I think that's where my experience is within that realm. It could also be like, gifted and deaf, right? But I think those kind of neurodivergent characteristics we're thinking of.
And I think, like, that's definitionally what it is. Like, my mind is going in like a million directions. But I think maybe it'd be helpful to say some of just, like, the key thoughts that come to mind if I think about like what is it like to be a twice-exceptional person, or kid, or teen? And I work with so many 2e kids, and teens, and their families.
And I think a big thing, like, it's, well, I often say, like, hard things are easy, and easy things are hard. And talk about the confusion, like all the different forms of confusion that arise from that, right?
So, when you're gifted things that people think are like way too hard for you, or that other kids think are hard and they can't do, or, you know, even as an adult that like seem complex, right? Can come very easily and feel like fun, or interesting, or natural, or like effortless, even, you know? Like and you have kids who, like my kid watched like one number blocks video on multiplication, and then he was, like, applying it to everything around the house, right? We're sitting at dinner, he's like, "Wow." He was three and he's like, "Five times four is 20."
I was like, "Sorry, what?" He's like, "Well, look at the window. It's like, five by four and there's 20." I was like, "Yeah, that's true. Great." And he's not doing it to show off. He's not even aware that it's like hard for someone else. He's just like, "That's what I'm thinking about." Right?
And I think a lot of times it can be shocking to others where it's like, "Wow, you're so capable." Right? But then, things that would seem like they would be easy tend to be really hard. So, like families I work with, brushing teeth, so, so, so, so hard right? I've had so many conversations about kids who, like, take a shower and they say they shampooed their hair, but their hair, clearly, isn't clean, and what is happening in the shower, right? Like, what are the different things getting in the way, you know, that's hard.
Or like, for me, right? Like, any new social situation is so anxiety-provoking at this level that is like, beyond, like, what other people experience. You know, work to other people is just like, "Whatever. No big deal. You know, we do some small talk, we play." I know how that works.
So, that's confusing, right? But it's like, it's confusing for the adults around a child or a teen, right? If you're an adult who's 2e, it might be confusing for the people around you, like your partners, or your boss, or your boss who's like, "Why are you such an incredible therapist, but you can't keep up with your progress notes?" Right? Or, "Why are you so good at this, but you hate making phone calls. Like, you're behind in your phone calls, right? But you have the most amazing spread sheet that you've put together for us."
But it's also so confusing internally. And I think that's something I hear from kids a lot, where a lot of 2e people, like, start to basically, like, worry, like, "Maybe I'm a horrible person, or there's something really wrong with me because all these things that are, like, things that good people do like brush their teeth, and apparently say thank you, and you know, whatever they are. Like, I can't do those things, and I don't know why?" Right. And then, it can be really confusing, where like, the adults are kind of like, "You're so smart, why can't you do this?" But the kid too is kind of like, "I'm so smart and capable, why can't I do this? I'm probably awful." Is often the conclusion that people come to.
MEGAN NEFF: So, that's so interesting. I'm going to, like, tie some ideas together. So, we just did an OCD series. And we talked about, like, obsessive stories and how they can develop because of neurodivergent trace. And that, to me, feels like an equation for an obsessive story.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Oh, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And I anecdotally see a lot of kind of, like, moral scrupulosity OCD in autistic kids and humans, of like, "I'm not good." And that feels like a recipe for that sort of obsessive story to absolutely take root of, "I'm not good." Because the expectation is I should be able to be good at this because I'm good at these other things. That's really interesting.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, I listened to that series recently, and I was like, "This is very familiar to me and to my clients." Yeah.
And I think there's something that happens with 2e kids too, where, like… Tell me if this makes sense, like, I don't have like, proof of this, but this is my sense from and talking with their parents and things in my program, is like, I think that there's something that happens where, like, gifted kids perceive the expectations and can cognitively understand the like "right or ideal" way to do things at a higher level of complexity than their peers, or at a younger age than their peers, you know? And they can, kind of like, conceptualize the perfect outcome, kind of. Like, this is the best way to do it. Clearly, I've analyzed all 15 ways I can think of, and this is it.
So, internally, I think they're experiencing like an inability to meet standards way more often than other kids, right? So, on the one hand, they're meeting lots of standards that other kids can't meet, but they're also even aware of like, which is why you see, I think, gifted kids beating themselves up of like, "Well, you know, maybe I'm a five-year-old who can do multiplication, but I got that question wrong, and that is horrible." Right?
And everyone else is like, "Here's a five-year-old who could do multiplication, we're good." You know. But the kid is like, "Well, no, because there is a correct answer. I can conceptualize it. I can tell you what it is now. I should have gotten that."
You know, like, I remember as a kid, even just wanting to draw something that I can envision in my mind, and there was no way I could make it look like that. And it was so distressing because I had something so specific in mind that I wanted to do or create, if that makes sense.
PATRICK CASALE: It definitely makes sense.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Because that feels like being really misunderstood when I can't communicate that to the world, or I can't show that to the world. So, it's like, how come I can envision this so vividly, but I can't actually accurately portray this to the people like that are asking me for it? Which is, you're kind of describing a lot of my childhood.
And I think that creates like that almost internalized, like that shame spiral, that harsh criticism, especially, when your peer, your educators, your teachers, your parents, your relatives are like, "You're so smart. Look at your look at your report cards. You're so smart." You start to really have that experience where everything creates that good versus bad depending on performance, and if it's not performance-driven, and I'm not successful at this, then I'm clearly a bad human being.
MEGAN NEFF: So, sorry. I just got really excited. I realized I don't think we've talked about growth mindset versus, oh my gosh, [CROSSTALK 00:17:22]-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: [CROSSTALK 00:17:23] fixed mindset, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Fixed mindset. And I think that would be a great segue, Patrick, because there is so much focus on achievement, not process, which is something that feeds fixed mindset. I'm imagining this is something you talk about a bit. Can you unpack, like growth mindset and fixed mindset? And like would you agree with my theory that gifted kids and 2e kids are more prone to a fixed mindset?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: I don't know. Actually, that's a good question. But I did do my master's thesis on the growth mindset.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, there we go.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes. And you know the joke about, like, research is me search, right? Where it's sort of like, I'm like, well, I need to like, the growth mindset was fascinating to me when I was a teacher and as a grad student when I did my master's program. But partly because it's like, I am so distressed by my own mistakes that I was like, I need to look into this. Like, I would like to have a better growth mindset.
So, my thoughts about it have changed over time. And I know there is some research, actually, too, on like whether kids identified as gifted are more likely to have a growth or fixed mindset. And I'm not good at remembering specific details of things. But I'm pretty sure it was like you'd think they'd be more fixed mindset because they have this label of giftedness, but it doesn't actually work that way.
MEGAN NEFF: That's great if that's…
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Because I would think it'd be really important to have a growth mindset when you're gifted.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah. Well, and what I've noticed in my program, we spend a whole week talking about the idea of, like, resilience, and how do you build resilience? And what I talk with parents about, like, is… And this comes from my own experience, but then from working with people too. I think the growth mindset gets mischaracterized as… Like, I think it gets, like, packaged poorly, or like in just the way that it's described, that parents and teachers, like the adults, get anxious about their kid… How do I say this? There's so much emphasis on like mistakes are our friends. Like mistakes are great. They are how we learn.
And most of the gifted and 2e kids I know are like, "No, they're not. I hate them. They are not my friend. They are horrible. They feel awful. And I don't actually need to make mistakes to learn, so no thanks. Like I'm good." You know?
So, I feel like that marketing really does a disservice to the growth mindset because I feel like those kids could totally have a growth mindset. And I help parents notice where their kids are showing components of a growth mindset, like using strategies, asking for help, persisting when things are tough. You know, like, growth mindset is really just the belief that you can, like, grow your ability, right? Or your skills in a certain area. But those are a lot of behaviors that people with a growth mindset tend to do, and in their area of interest, and when they feel confident, gifted kids usually do do that stuff. And 2e kids do do that stuff, right? They persist on their Lego set that's really hard, or that fell over, or whatever. It's often more around, like, things that they don't like or that are distressing, or when they're low capacity, they lose it.
But I like promoting this idea that, like, I still hate mistakes. Like, I studied the growth mindset. I fully believe that I can get better, but my reactions to a mistake is like physiological. It's like an emotional physiological reaction. And I talk about it as being, I think, from a gifted lens, that you can perceive the nature of the mistake so clearly and quickly. And it's horrifying because it's wrong, and you can think about it differently.
But also, if you're like, autistic, there's something about something being off or wrong, and it's just like, distressing, right? So, I would try to create this space of like, and most of the parents are like, "I hate mistakes too. Thank you for saying that." Like, right, that you can hate a mistake and still persist, and still be resilient, and still have a growth mindset.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: And making space for that.
MEGAN NEFF: I haven't heard that before. You can hate mistakes and still have a growth mindset. I feel like that's a very, like, holding the both and.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Totally.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, because a lot of us also have obsessive tendencies. And so, I think that physiological thing you're describing, I absolutely feel that. And I make a lot of mistakes. And so, yes, the physiological experience of recognizing a mistake, that grips me in a way that views, like mistakes in RSD rejection sensitive dysphoria or like those grip my nervous system in a way that is, like, very unique.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes.
MEGAN NEFF: And awful.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: It's just they suck.
MEGAN NEFF: It sucks.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: [CROSSTALK 00:22:04] parents you can tell your kids, "This sucks." Like, I guess you're comfortable, right? Like, yeah, it's awful. And I think that's where we lose a lot of 2e kids, where we're sort of like, "You have to like mistakes. Mistakes are our friends." And they're like, "I just can't." But they can be like, "This sucks. I hate it." They can rip up their work. They can go to their room. And then, they come back 30 minutes later and just come back to it, and redo it, and keep working on it.
So, I think, I see, like a lot of distress, but if there's room for the distress, I think there is a lot of growth mindset there, actually, or the potential for it, if that makes sense, a lot of resilience.
MEGAN NEFF: Right, like there's this potential to have a fixed mindset about what growth mindset is supposed to look like.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes.
MEGAN NEFF: You can break through that, and embrace a complex growth mindset. Okay, yeah.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, totally.
MEGAN NEFF: And then, a fixed mindset, just because we haven't introduced that idea, do you mind briefly explaining what a fixed mindset is for our listeners?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, I think, like, a fixed mindset is the belief that your abilities are innate and don't change, right? That they can't change over time as the result of effort or things like that.
I do have like, a lot of it. I've never actually said this out loud, but like, I'll say it now is like, you know, and I'm all pro-growth mindset, and I'm like, well, I like to distinguish between abilities and skills because, like, your cognitive abilities, they don't really change that much over time. And when we're talking about giftedness, we're often talking… Like, giftedness, usually, is often based on some kind of measurement of cognitive abilities that are pretty stable over the lifetime, right?
And I think sometimes parents get confused, or they'll be like, you know, there's this belief, like, "Well, my kid has low processing speed, so how can we work on that and improve it?" It's like, you actually can't improve your base processing speed, really, unless it's the result of, like, illness or inflammation, or something else, right? But you can improve your ability to read quickly by practicing reading a lot, right? And you can be faster in that skill or that ability. So, I don't know if that's a helpful or an important distinction for anyone else, but-
MEGAN NEFF: I think it's really helpful, skill versus ability. And also, I think, radical honesty is part of embracing a growth mindset of like, yes, this is the processing speed I'm working with. This is the working memory I'm working with. And there's skills, there's accommodations I can build to myself, to my environment.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Totally.
MEGAN NEFF: So, really emphasizing the skill piece. And I know, like, that's a lot of the feedback I got in parenting when I first learned about this because the feedback is like, praise your child's, like their effort, not the outcome. And that's part of facilitating growth mindset. So, I almost became a hyper-vigilant of like, "Oh no, I can't tell my daughter it's a good painting. Good effort on that painting."
But yeah, no, I really like how you distinguish skill versus ability, and also, just, I think mindset around, am I going to collapse when I've bumped into something and it's a no? Or am I going to persist? So, I really like how you also emphasize persistence and resilience.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: This makes me think, too, of like a major theme of twice-exceptional experience. And like parents of twice-exceptional kids, I think, is that, like 2e kids are prone to challenges with things and distress, right? And emotional upset. And when I work with parents about trying to validate these really intense feelings and perspectives instead of trying to fight them, and this is just one great example of that, where it's like, if you can just say, like, "Yeah, mistakes are the worst, it's awful. I totally get it." The kid actually hears that, right? They have their feelings and they move on.
But if you say like, "Hey, don't get so upset. Everyone makes mistakes. It's fine. You don't have to, you know, worry about it." The kid gets stuck in their feeling and their distress. And they don't get to move on. And so many of my conversations with parents are helping them, like, unlearn the things they hear about what good parenting is. Like, good parents help their kids like mistakes. And like that's going to lead you all wrong. And it's going to make life so hard, right? Whereas, if you can just say, yeah, mistakes, you know, the kid will actually be able to get through that feeling.
And like, there's so much invalidation of the 2e experience because of the distress that's involved, right? Or the big reactions that are involved. And so much people are so often telling 2e people, like, "Don't be so worried. It's not a problem."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, don't feel what you're feeling.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. This came up in a parenting call in the community I run, where someone said, and I love this line of one of the most validating things you can things you can say to your child is, like, what you're feeling makes sense.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes.
MEGAN NEFF: And I think that is so deeply validating. There's this idea from… it comes out of really trauma psychology. But I've heard it applied more to neurodivergence, and I'm obsessed with this lens now. It's the idea of traumatic invalidation, and how there's many different domains in which we can experience invalidation. And when that is done on a persistent low-grade level, the idea is it is traumatizing on an identity level because we lose trust in ourselves.
So, if we think about even, like, just neurodivergent kids, let alone 2e, like, sensory invalidation. Like, "Oh, you know, that soup isn't too spicy." Or, "It's not too cold in here." Or, "It's not too loud in here." Or all the other ways, relational invalidation, emotional invalidation. And it's not because people are trying to invalidate, right? I think that there's also a lot of the parents are trying to follow the guidelines.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Like they've been told, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I think I've done that to my kid of like, mistakes, trying to reframe mistakes, and doing that, missing their emotional needs in that moment. So, leaning into validation of what you are feeling makes sense. I really like that approach. And that is pretty different than what I've come across in a lot of the parenting advice.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Absolutely. I love that, yeah. I need to look more into that traumatic invalidation because that resonates so much. I feel like that's what I've tried to explain about the 2e experience a lot, is that it's like there is this kind of chronic misalignment or invalidation because the kids are seen as, like, reacting wrong or doing things wrong. And I think when parents do that, they're coming from the place of really trying to help their kid be less distressed, have an easier life, right? But it ends up creating this sense of invalidation.
And that was, I think, my experience growing up. And it erodes self-knowledge and self-trust because, like, you can't learn. You know, for a kid to say, like, "I need help." They need to be able to be like, "This is awful. You know, like this feels really bad, and I could get an accommodation, or I could do something about it." Versus being like, "I feel really bad, but I shouldn't." That's not the right response. Like…
MEGAN NEFF: And then, feeling like the secondary emotion of like, I feel bad about feeling bad, because I know I'm not supposed to be feeling like that.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Which there's so much of that, yes, yeah, exactly. Can I say one more thing about the growth mindset-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, please.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: …before we move on? Because it was making me think, like you said, you got kind of hyper-vigilant around not raising the outcome. I had so much training in this as a teacher, and really learned to, like, narrate, and describe process versus an outcome. And then, I studied this, right?
So, with my own kid, it was like, funny, because I'm like, this is kind of like an experiment where I'm like, "I'm basically never going to praise outcome." And like, I'm sure I didn't do it 100% right, but it's pretty second nature to me now to describe process instead. And it was amazing for me to see, like, oh, he'll figure out how to focus on the product himself without any intervention from me.
And I like to tell parents that because I… And I don't know if that's a gifted quality, right? Where they can, I think some of it is, or it's just really common with gifted kids of like, like I said, they can envision the way it's supposed to go, and they're going to get upset about it, and it's like those kids are shaming themselves about doing not a good enough job even without the parents doing anything. So, in some ways, just letting parents know like, it's not your fault. You didn't create this. Your kid is probably wired this way. Because I see that so often with gifted kids and adults of like, shame and distress around not getting the product they want right, or doing things perfectly. And a lot of it is even in the face of parents being like, "We don't care. Get a seat. Do what you want." You know? But it's like an internal distress at not meeting that standard.
MEGAN NEFF: I can imagine that creates another tricky, like, invalidation moment of… Like, one of my kids is a really great artist, but I know this idea that you're saying of like, when you're gifted, you have a very clear idea in your mind of what you want it to look like, and when it doesn't, you're disappointed. That's really interesting to me because there would be times like that, maybe there's a small mistake in it, and then it'd be like, "This is terrible."
And I want to come in and be like, "No, it's not. It's really good." But like, then again, there's some invalidation there. For her, it is terrible because it is not the experience of what she has in mind. So, rather than leaning into like, "That must be really disappointing that you can't get it quite like you want it." The urge to come in and say, like, "No, it's good."
DANIKA MADDOCKS: I know, and because it probably is really good, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: One of you is, like, "It looks amazing. Like, this is so good." Yeah, when I tell parents, too, you don't have to agree with your kid, right? You're not like, "You're right, it's terrible." Right? But you're just like, "Oh, that's not how you wanted it." Right? Or that's like-
MEGAN NEFF: You're narrating. You're narrating. Like, you're reflecting back like this there, that's not what you wanted, yeah.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Totally, yeah exactly, exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. I feel like I'm already, like, learning a lot and taking some ideas. I know one of the things that we talked about was, like, I really like how you worded it, the subjective experience of 2e. And I feel like we've kind of dipped into that, but was there kind of some more thoughts around that that you wanted to explore?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, right. Because I was talking about, like, hard things are easy, and easy things are hard, and how confusing that is. I think-
MEGAN NEFF: Confusion, validation. Okay, we're creating like a stack list here.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah. And I do think the lack of self-trust is part of it, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Sure.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Where it's like, I think, I was thinking about this this morning where I was like, "How would I describe this like, especially…" Well, so, right. I now identify as, like, gifted autistic, but I could see that someone who's like gifted ADHD could experience this as well.
And I know I heard your interview with Emily Kircher-Morris, and you touched a little bit on this idea of like gifted masking, where you're trying to hide the way your brain works so it doesn't fit in. Or you're just trying to fit in as best you can, right?
And I was thinking so much of my life, like a lot of my experience is like one of having to have, like, a very strong filter to feel successful in situations where it's like, I have one million things I want to say at all times, and many of them are not welcome here, it turns out because other people do not want to hear them, right? So, learning to filter and mask.
And like a lot of kids and teens I work with who are, you know, there's often experience of high anxiety going along with a twice-exceptional profile. And I think some of it comes from this, like, constant self-monitoring and filtering. And this idea that, like, the unfiltered you is bad. Like, unfiltered you is embarrassing, shameful, says the wrong thing, does the wrong thing, doesn't get it. It is too much, right? And that you need to, like, really be thoughtful all the time. And that's exhausting. And it's so hard to trust yourself, you know, of like, well, here's the thing I would say. Now I need to put that through for some gifted and autistic folks it's like, I need to now filter that through every social rule I've ever heard in my life, you know? And see if it passes the test. Even if it was just one thing my aunt said to me this one time, and one thing I read in People Magazine, you know? And I'll have kids say like, "Well, my friend is sad, and I really don't know what to say to them."
And it's like, "Well, what's going through your mind?" "Well, I thought about saying, I'm sorry that happened, but then once I read that, you shouldn't say that, you know, and then I thought about this." And it's like, "Oh my gosh, I understand this internal process so much."
PATRICK CASALE: I walk my wife through that all the time. And she just looks at me and she's like, "I'm glad I'm not in your brain."
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Sounds tiring in there, like…
PATRICK CASALE: It's so tiring. It's so exhausting because I'm a gifted ADHDer. And it's often times like the brain is just giving me all of these outcomes and results. And you're right, it's just better to sit, and process it, and try to filter it through. And then, you're waiting for that one opportunity that could be the one in to the conversation. You miss it, and then, you ultimately interrupt at the wrong time, or you just don't say anything at all, and you leave feeling like very unseen, and it's a lot of fun.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you like, say sometimes, because I think, like, when I learned the autistic lens, I was like, "No wonder I feel that way." Like, and figuring out I was autistic reduced so much of my 2e shame, I think, that I had been carrying my whole life because I was like, "I'm actually not as good as everyone thinks I am." Right? And I was like, "Oh, I'm different." But there's-
PATRICK CASALE: Ooh.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, [CROSSTALK 00:35:56]-
PATRICK CASALE: Sorry. I've been thinking about this point the entire time, and I really hope this is not diverging too much, and we can cut this if this just does not feel applicable. But we haven't talked about this at all, and what you just said really highlights it for me. Do we think there is so much this topic can be so polarizing and create a lot of mixed emotions? Because I just quickly Googled, searched exceptionality definition, which states like the state of being exceptional, rare, one of a kind, or unusually excellent. And then, it says in education, it can also refer to a person who requires special schooling due to intellectual giftedness, or physical, or mental disability.
Now, obviously, that's not the most affirming definition that came immediately up. But do you think there's so much polarization in this conversation because of what exceptionality means to different people, in terms of an ableist lens and elitist lens, when we think about exceptionality versus the ableist lens of like, well, we're actually talking about someone who is not only gifted but has a disabling condition, who then we start to unpack that piece?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: I think [CROSSTALK 00:37:08]-
MEGAN NEFF: Like, exceptional from the norm. You're the first person I've heard say that. And I'm like, I get that, that we're talking about, like, it's statistically exceptional, right? Not character.
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, if you hear 2e, it's like, "Damn, you're full of yourself."
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly, and that's exactly [CROSSTALK 00:37:25]-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: That is so exceptional. Like, twice-exceptional.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:37:30]-
MEGAN NEFF: That sounds terrible.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, that's so interesting. I don't know. Well, I feel like most of the pushback I've gotten has been around the giftedness piece. I've also really set my life up to not interact with that many people. So, I don't think that I, yes-
PATRICK CASALE: Sounds [CROSSTALK 00:37:49]
DANIKA MADDOCKS: And I appreciate that, Megan Anna. I'm like, "Same, yes." Like, so I don't know, and I do tend to, like, a lot of the talk in the gifted 2e world stresses me out. So, I tend to, like, I consume carefully, I guess.
So, like, I don't know as much about pushback on 2e or twice-exceptional. I do know I've seen lots of people, like, feel really uncomfortable around the idea of giftedness, and even parents I work with, right? Who, like, are aware, like, "My kids seem really advanced, but I wouldn't say they're gifted, or I don't know. You know, I don't like that term."
So, yeah, but that makes sense. Like, you're thinking of it as, like, exceptional in that way. Because I think what I used to… I was thinking this morning, too, like, I don't know, I think I didn't think that much around the term 2e, but since identifying as autistic the term has bothered me more because, you know, it like, erases the disability and makes it a special gifted thing. And I think, like-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I think that's [INDISCERNIBLE 00:38:56].
DANIKA MADDOCKS: So, I feel like, what's that?
PATRICK CASALE: So, that's kind of what I'm getting at. And I think that's what it is for me too, is like, and it comes back to exactly what you said, which is hard things are easy, easy things are hard. And when I zoom out into a lens of like, being both gifted and autistic, well, autistic, ADHD, I'm like, it feels like everything is really hard for the most part. But then more are these things that just come, like, naturally or instinctively, or do not require a ton of [INDISCERNIBLE 00:39:24] or lots of effort. So, it's just confusing a lot of the time, if I'm being honest.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Well, and I think if you… I heard in the conversation with Emily, you said, like, schoolwork was really easy for you growing up, right? I think that's a weird thing too. Is like, not all gifted kids have that experience, but if you are that subset, like, that was me too, right? The giftedness piece, I think, like, that's where you get the baddest high move of like, "Well, school comes easily." And that's what most children are asked to do with most of their day. So, that can come easily.
And then, once you're an adult or go into, like, work tasks are not the same as school tasks. School tasks tend to be highly structured, right? Like, I remember as a kid, and I've seen it with my clients, like, you can grok the entire assignment like the second you see it as a gifted person, and you're like, "Cool, I'm good. I got it all, right? Like, I'm ready to be done." But like, most work tasks don't work that way. Or, I don't know, I guess it depends.
My brother did, like, at all the jobs he's had there's jobs where he's like, "Cool, these are my tasks for the month I'm done. It is the third of the month." Like, you know. And they're like, "Well, you need to keep working." He's like, "But I finished my tasks. So, do what, though?" You know? So, I guess it depends on what you're doing in your job.
But I think, like, those benefits of being gifted are kind of, I think, Emily was saying this in her interview too, is, like, it's very similar to, like, being neurodivergent in another way. Like, I think a lot about the concept of fit, and I talk with parents about that a lot, and trying to find the right fit environment for your kids, or make the right fit environment. And it's like, you know, if you are having a poor fit between your gifted brain and whatever you're being asked to do, or your gifted autistic brain, right? And like, that's what determines whether it is a benefit or a detriment in that moment. Is like the fit with the situation you're in.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that you're bringing in the environment piece. I think that piece is so huge. And that's where parents can really step in and intervene. Like, I've just been having so much, like, personal soul searching and also, like conversations with my spouse around this. One thing I shared in a more recent episode was I always talked about my spouse is neurotypical but his IQ would put him in the gifted range.
And so, we had a conversation of, like, "Oh my gosh, I have to stop talking about you as my neurotypical spouse." Like, and it was really interesting for him to talk about, you know, "I don't really resonate with the label of gifted. I don't really resonate with the label of neurodivergent." And also, like, I don't know that he would resonate with a lot of the struggles. After this airs, I could ask him, that is being brought up around gifted people. But then, I also pointed out, "You, like, went to private schools with really smart kids. You've always been around really intelligent people. There is, like, an environment match there."
But it is interesting to realize that, like, I've been thinking about that too, there are also gifted people for whom they won't resonate with some of these struggles, and perhaps those are the folks for whom there's more of that environmental match, or gifted folks who don't have executive functioning struggles. They're also probably going to have less of that internal confusion, less of that kind of async I'm really good here, but I really struggle here. But yeah, so I've been thinking through… Like, there's just so many complexities to how this can show up.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, and I think some of it is personality, right? And I think it's really hard to tease apart what is, like, level of cognitive ability, like giftedness or not, right? What is other forms of neurodivergence, right? I think also the fact that, well, let me finish that one thought first, start the next thought, right? And then, some is personality.
Because I think what has been an interesting journey for me is like, I've known a lot about giftedness and gifted kids, and I've been interested in it my whole life, right? But only once I recognized that I might be autistic, right? Was I, like, "Oh, shoot. How much of those things that I thought were about being gifted, or highly gifted, or actually autistic characteristics in myself and in these other children I have known that I worked with as a teacher, or, you know, that I'm using as my, like, diverse anecdotal case data that I'm like, you know, amalgamating and, like, you know, synthesizing in my mind?"
And that has been interesting, where I'm like, oh, a lot of those characteristics, I think, were, actually, autistic characteristics that get attributed to giftedness, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. And I mean, this happens to all humans, right? Confirmation bias. And this happens like in the mental health world where we have a lens we see someone. Like, right now the big one in the mental health world, and probably over the last 15 years has been trauma. So, this is one of the reasons misdiagnosis happens, right? Is when we're kind of primed to see something through a lens. Like, if you're primed to see something through trauma, and someone comes in, and they're talking about dissociation and relationship struggles. Like, "Oh, trauma, if that makes sense." I'm not thinking like autism or ADHD.
So, it makes so much sense the same thing would happen with giftedness. And it seems like that's kind of happened with the overexcitabilities framework, which, because, to me, I so relate to the overexcitabilities. But I think it's because I'm neurodivergent. I don't think it's…
And so, there's all of this overshadowing that happens when we have these complex identities coming together, and whatever is our, like, home framework, I think it's so helpful to be aware we're prone to confirmation bias. Like, I'm probably prone to see things as autistic or ADHD because that's my home lens now.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Totally.
MEGAN NEFF: And so, yes, I love awareness of like, okay, yeah, we're going to be looking to confirm the belief this is the thing. But I bet that happens so much with gifted kids because autism and ADHD often aren't recognized.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Totally, yes. One, it's interesting, like, maybe for your audience too, because I'm thinking like, you probably pull out of folks who are right interested in, like, neurodivergence in general, and ADHD, and autism. And I will say, so I'm like, this is relevant to share is, like a lot of the parents I work with who come in with these 2e or gifted kids, they're like, "But I'm not gifted." And I'm like, "Well. Like, I don't know you, maybe not, right? Like, but also, like, it's highly heritable the same way these other forms of neurodivergence are."
And I even see this with gifted teens I work with. I think for a lot of gifted folks, there is like, and you were saying like for your husband, maybe like not identifying with that, like if it goes well for you, I think you don't notice that you think that differently than anyone else. You just think you're normal, right? And if you have a few friends who think like you, or you do well, or whatever, it just feels normal, right? And a lot of parents don't recognize their kid is gifted because they're like, "Seems normal to me." You know, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:46:11] and that that gets missed a lot.
And I think a lot of adults have just never considered that they might be gifted, right? And so, sometimes it could be, like for adults who maybe know that they have ADHD or autistic, right, but they've never identified with a twice-exceptional piece or the giftedness. Sometimes exploring that as an adult can be really helpful for understanding certain aspects of experience.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, yeah. Katie talked about that a little bit last week around kind of late identification of giftedness, and how that can also help melt some of the shame because of the shame that can come with that identity in a lot of ways. And it does seem that it makes sense in the same way that a lot of adults are coming to understanding around their autism or ADHD that a lot of adults would also be coming to understand around their giftedness.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're at a conversational lull. Is this a transition point or is this?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, I'm trying to think if there were other things about the subjective experience to share that I didn't say yet.
MEGAN NEFF: Patrick, you look like you were chewing on something.
PATRICK CASALE: No, I was just checking the time. I was like, [CROSSTALK 00:47:28]-
MEGAN NEFF: …checking the time.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: …to talk about parenting, if that would be a good one?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh yeah, let's… Yeah, I think that'd be-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: If there's time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you do a lot of different things. You have a practice, but one of the things you do is you run this Learning Lab for parents, helping them support their kids. And I know you have a parenting framework. Are you comfortable sharing, like, I think there's four pillars that like…
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: What are some of the kind of foundational ways that you encourage parents to show up differently for their 2e or gifted kids?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, I can tell you kind of, right, the four-pillar framework that we cover that in the program, and then we apply it to different experiences. But so, it was like me trying to distill, like, I would say, like, every 2e kid is different, right? Like, I don't want to say, like, "Well, I have these ideas and they're going to work for every 2e kid or every intense gifted or twice-exceptional kid out there." But I try to identify, like, guiding principles that I think are relevant for every gifted or 2e kid and parent. And then, in the program, we talk about, how do you actually apply this to your kid and your family, and how does it get adapted.
But the first one is just kind of understanding giftedness and twice-exceptionality, like kind of what a gifted and twice-exceptional brain, what the characteristics are that tend to manifest as intensity. Because I also am, specifically, focusing on people who just intensity is not… Like, intense is not a technical term, but just like, you kind of know if you've got an intense kid or not, right? So, it's like, that's the people it would exist for. But sort of just the characteristics that underlie it because a lot of times it does. Like, these characteristics get attributed to, like, personality or, you know, like, oh, these kids are lazy, or they're rude, or they're defiant.
It's like, well, no, there's actually, like, neutral brain characteristics that underlie those things. That's just like, your kid focuses better on things that are interesting to them, right? And it's really hard to focus on things that aren't. Or like, transitions are hard, and helping parents understand these more neutral characteristics that can give rise to intensity when the situation is not a great fit, right? When it's like, "Let's get through eight steps of the morning routine." That's going to be intense for a kid who doesn't like transitions, right? Or who finds those tasks sensor, like, distressing from a sensory perspective.
So, we talk about trying to, like, understand their kid's brain through that framework, so they have a better sense of, like, what works and what doesn't work for their kid or what's hard.
And then, one week is all about validating intensity without trying to teach your kids anything in the moment. So, we talk about how to validate intense feelings. But also, for 2e kids, I find that, like, most of them don't like if you name feelings. Like, a lot of them experience those things more cognitively.
And I know that, you know, that can be common for a lot of autistic folks too, but really trying to validate your kid's perspective and where they're coming from, which is different than a lot of parents have learned, like, maybe emotion coaching, but they find that when their kid is upset and they're like, "Oh, you're disappointed." The kid is like. "Shh."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I tricked their [CROSSTALK 00:50:46]. Like, I read a lot, like the whole brain child. And I remember when I tried that, that often did not go over well. And it's interesting, I thought about it from kind of like a PDA lens, or like, I think if someone mirrors my emotions kind of clumsily. Like, it feels intrusive.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes, condescending [CROSSTALK 00:51:07]-
MEGAN NEFF: Condescending. Like, don't tell me how I feel.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And maybe that's my demand avoidance, that's interesting. I hadn't tied it to like a giftedness element. Yeah, do you-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: [CROSSTALK 00:51:17]-
MEGAN NEFF: ...notice that for adults too? Like, adults because one of the conversations that's also come up is like gifted therapy like for adults that are gifted, do you feel like they also have that kind of knee-jerk reaction to having their emotions weird?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: That's a good question. I don't know because [CROSSTALK 00:51:33]-
MEGAN NEFF: What's your response?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: I don't know enough gifted adults [INDISCERNIBLE 00:51:35] yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I hate it.
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:51:39] size too here.
PATRICK CASALE: I really hate it. Really makes me uncomfortable. It makes me feel, I don't know, I get really frustrated. I think I get really irritated by that, especially, if it's inaccurate, or if it's just, like, completely missing the mark, or furthermore, if it feels like it's just placating and just like, then it's like…
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Patrick, you seem really irritated right now as you reflect on this.
PATRICK CASALE: I have no emotions right now other than, like, having to pee really badly, that's my only emotion.
MEGAN NEFF: But that's [CROSSTALK 00:52:13]
DANIKA MADDOCKS: …everything else.
PATRICK CASALE: … feeling.
MEGAN NEFF: The physiological sensation.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: But that's a great example-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:52:18] sensation-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: …of what a 2e person might tell you, right? How do you feel right now? I really have to pee.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Like, that's my only feeling I'm having.
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly, which can lead to a lot of confusing conversations [INDISCERNIBLE 00:52:33].
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to know because I think, like I think my kid has PDA characteristics, and so do I, and a lot of the families who come to my program with an intense gifted 2e kid. We do end up talking a lot about PDA. So, it's hard to know how much of it is that, right? But also, and honestly, most of the kids in my private practice seem to have some of those characteristics. So, it's one of those things where I'm like, "Oh, wait, I thought this is all about-
MEGAN NEFF: It's a mixed giftedness-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Oh, maybe it's probably-
MEGAN NEFF: It's autism and alexithymia.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, I think it's all of these things because I very much relate to that, again, as a non-gifted person. And for me, it's alexithymia, it's demand avoidance because my emotions tend to be more expressed through ideas and cognition than like, I feel X emotions.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: One-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: It's an oversimplification, often, of, like, all the things that are going on for the person at the moment.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Right? So, yeah. And I think it's helpful for parents to know that because they're trying to do the right thing, right? They've read that you need to help your kid label their emotions, right? And you need to see them. And it often just leads to so much distress and fighting. So…
MEGAN NEFF: You have ways of teaching parents to validate that is not the classic, like, mirror the emotions, name the emotions.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, exactly.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: And for some kids, they don't want you to say anything. So, you know, you can just validate in your mind and try to accept, like, yeah, they're upset right now. That's valid.
MEGAN NEFF: Do you do more process? Like, you talked a lot about narrating process. Is that one way that parents can validate?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, yeah. And I think we kind of experiment to see what works with their kids. But, like, I do talk a lot about trying to, like, understand where your kid is coming from, and to validate their perspective in some way. So, it could be, right, by trying to name it.
And there are some, like, phrases that work for lots of kids, right? Like, you were not expecting that. That is a really useful phrase for most like-
MEGAN NEFF: That's a great phrase, you were not expecting that.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, because that's often upsetting to our kids, right? To 2e kids. They hate things they're not expecting. And if you're not saying, like, gosh, you're really sad that happened, or you're so disappointed, you're just like, "Oh, that was unexpected." Or you were not expecting that.
Or even with your daughter's art example, right? Like, "Oh, that is not what you had in mind." Or one that I like that some families have had success with is like, "Who designed this." Right? They're like, "This game is so hard, I did that. Who made it that way? That doesn't make any… that is way too hard." You know? And they're like, "Yes." So, like, one parent used it with her daughter's hair brush, right? Who, sensory nightmare, right? And she's like, "Who designed hair brushes?" And the kid thought that was hilarious, right? And it's like, this is terrible, and it's kind of bringing on their thinking mind, of like, there's a better way to do this, and this is awful. So, sometimes blaming the object is really useful, right? The sandals-
MEGAN NEFF: I'm going to use that.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Like, those sandals are, or like, those winter boots are so hard to tie, they're so stiff. Like, you know, you're just trying to explain and, like, depersonalize a lot of times because I do think part of the 2e experience is like a real vulnerability to feeling shame, and just like feeling ashamed at like, I can't tie my boots, I'm a terrible person. It just goes to the, you know, and I experience that. So, I know it's not logical, but it's like, you know, "I can't tie my boots. I hate myself." And so, trying to-
MEGAN NEFF: So, learn to hate the boots.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Learn to hate the boots, yes. Exactly, yeah. So, the validating is a big piece.
And then, we talk about, when I started out, I started with kind of, like, helping with strengths and challenges. But I've reframed strengths as, like, really incorporating your autonomy and your kids interest as much as you can in life because those are two huge 2e strengths, and they're so regulating. So, the more you can give your kids autonomy, and the more you can incorporate things they like, even if it's something as simple as, like, when you go get them up in the morning just talk with them about their interests while you all get ready, right? So, then you're just asking, like, what is going on in the Warriors cats' books, and they are telling you all about it, then, you know? And you're like, "Great, just walk with me to the bathroom while we do that."
So, sometimes it's little stuff like that, but that's the big principle, right? The more autonomy and the more their interests are there, the better they feel, usually. And then, supporting challenges by embracing neurodiversity.
And I will say, like, a big piece this isn't a subjective experience, exactly, but when you're parenting a gifted 2e kid, it is so easy to underestimate how hard things are for your kid. And it's just so easy to just not be able to tell. Even for me, this is my job. I think about it every day. And sometimes there are things where I'm like, there's a moment where you know, and you're like, "This is too hard for me. This is going sideways. Oh, shoot." Right? Like, I could have provided more structure, or we could have left 10 minutes ago, or shouldn't have done this today, it's too much in a day, or whatever it is. And so, helping parents think of different ways to, like, make hard things easier and just figure out non-traditional ways to do things that work for your kid. So, those are the four big pieces.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that also is really helpful. You might be getting an email from me. [CROSSTALK 00:57:56]-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: [CROSSTALK 00:57:56].
MEGAN NEFF: No, it's been interesting as we've been going through this series. I realize I've put a lot of attention to my kid's autism and ADHD, but less so to the gifted element, and that framework, first, it sounds really like neurodiversity-affirming. But also, it sounds really practical.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And now, because I think in, like, resource curation, I want like a cheat sheet of, like, go-to sentences that are validating for like gifted kids of like who designed this? And that makes sense. And like all the parents need that.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: That would be great.
MEGAN NEFF: And maybe we need it for ourselves, like validating sentences for ourselves.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Oh, my gosh, yes. And often at the end of my little eight-week cycle with parents it's like, cool, now, if we could all just go back through and apply all these to ourselves, like, all these principles, all these ideas, practice validating ourselves, giving ourselves autonomy, incorporating our own interests. Like, yeah, it's really helpful for us as grownups, too. So…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: I would make that sheet with you, if you want. That'd be really cool.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, yeah.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: I like that idea, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: That'd be great.
MEGAN NEFF: Let me know if you want to, yeah, I am trying to make more, like, one-page resources. And-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: So thoughtful.
MEGAN NEFF: If we get it out in the next few weeks, we could even attach it to the show notes.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: I would love that. I like practical. I really do. Like, I like big ideas. But then for parents, it's like, you just need something that you can literally you can literally do and it helps. And you're like, great, that helped, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and this is partly because, like, I shared in a newsletter recently one of my kids, this was years ago, but we drove past a sign that was like slow, disabled child here. And my child asked, "Am I disabled?" And my brain, which is also a very complex brain, was like, "Okay, social model of disability." Like, I'm thinking through all the models of disability, and I'm like, "How do I respond to this question?" And sometimes in moments like that, you just need like a concrete inquiry.
And I was able to think through it enough to be like, "Well, what do you think?" And then, that led into conversations which, you know, that's always a good solid [CROSSTALK 1:00:05]-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: It's a good go-to.
MEGAN NEFF: …to give you time, especially, for me, like my processing speed is lower. So, also sentences that give us time to process.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yes.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yes, I love a good sentence script, especially, because our brain can want to go 1000 different ways and see all the complexity. So, it can be very soothing to have, that go to sentence.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, sounds great.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, thank you so much for your time today, and this has been a really interesting conversation. We've dived more into the 2e experience. And this is the first conversation we've had explicitly around parenting. So, thank you for that.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Where can folks find you if they're wanting to learn about The Learning Lab, or learn about your practice, or your work? Where are the best places for folks to find you?
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, so The Gifted Learning Lab is giftedlearninglab.com. I have a free weekly, or mostly weekly email that folks can sign up for there. And also, I put together like a free five-day email mini-course for reducing power struggles that cover some of those big principles that applied, specifically, to power struggles. And so that's at giftedlearninglab.com/power.
I am on Instagram and Facebook. If you search Gifted Learning Lab, I have limited capacity these days, so most of my energy goes towards my email list and the actual coaching program. And the coaching program is Support Your Intense Gifted 2e Kid. So, that's giftedlearninglab.com/kid. People can find all the details on things there.
And people can schedule, if they look at it, and they think it might be a fit, but they have questions about it, they can schedule a free Zoom chat with me. And I also offer to pay-what-you-can spots for each cohort because the program is pretty high touch, like highly interactive, so it is a more expensive program, but there's two slots each time for pay-what-you-can.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 1:02:04]. That's awesome.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And because Danika has been a sponsor of this series, not only will all of that information be in the show notes, but it's actually in every single episode show notes. So-
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: Make sure to go check that out and get all of those amazing resources because that sounds like a really incredible program.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Awesome. Thanks for having me today. This was so fun.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, thanks so much for coming on. I really enjoyed this.
DANIKA MADDOCKS: Yeah, awesome.
PATRICK CASALE: And to everyone listening to Divergent Conversations, new episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. Bye.
