Episode 8: Autistic Emotions
Dec 25, 2023
Show Notes
Being an Autistic human often pairs with a complex relationship with emotions.
Just the question, "How do you feel," can feel so uncomfortable and spark anxiety, panic, and avoidance, often resulting in pre-planned responses or an answer that makes you think, "What the hell am I saying right now?"
In her initial session with a new therapist, Megan Anna, an Autistic psychologist, unintentionally exposed her genuine feelings about emotions, inadvertently confessing, "I hate emotions."
In this episode, you'll hear the personal experiences and realizations of both Patrick and Megan Anna around emotions, communication, and navigating relationships.
If you or someone you know struggles with expressing emotions or feeling understood and connected to others, then this episode is for you.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Understand how Autistic people may display emotions differently and the challenges we face in navigating and expressing our emotions.
- Identify signs of sensory overload, what can trigger it, and some methods to help self-soothe and regulate.
- Learn how and which tools and technologies to use to improve and aid in communication
By gaining a deeper understanding of Autistic emotions, we gain the potential for greater self-awareness which can empower us to embrace our authentic selves and foster meaningful connections.
- 💻 Dr. Megan Anna Neff's Website: https://neurodivergentinsights.com
- 💻 Patrick Casale's Website: https://www.allthingspractice.com
Resources:
Resources for Emotion Identification (blog posts):
- The Emotion Matrix: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/arousal-valence-model
- The Feeling Wheel: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/the-feelings-wheel
- Increasing Emotional Identification: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/emotional-identification
Resource (Workbook):
- The Alexithymia Workbook: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/alexithymia-workbook
- Emotions 101: If you’re a nerd like me and enjoy learning the science of emotions this workbook is for you: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/emotions-101
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you're listening to another episode of the Divergent Conversations Podcast, stumbling over my words, I'm your cohost, Patrick Casale, joined today by…
MEGAN NEFF: Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And we are going to talk about autistic emotions. And Megan, you brought this up before we started recording. So, why autistic emotions?
MEGAN NEFF: Well, you know, in our most recent podcast, when we were talking about therapy and some of our experience with therapy, I was struck by, you know, both of us talking about how intrusive it felt when people asked how we were feeling or were in our bodies. And I just think it's a really interesting topic. I know I have really complex relationship to emotions. And so, I just thought it'd be really interesting to dive into the autistic experience of emotions, again, knowing there's obviously a diversity of how we all experience it, but we can talk about our experiences.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so I agree with you. And I know we brought it up a lot when we were talking about finding ND-affirming therapists and what it feels like to be in therapy, questions that are not appreciated, or that don't really land, or go over well. So, when we're thinking about, you know, the complex conversation around autistic emotion, where does your mind go? What are you thinking about?
MEGAN NEFF: I think the first place my mind goes is a memory actually. So, I think it was either my first or my second session with the therapist I mentioned on our last podcast, the one I worked with for four and a half years. And I was nervous going into, I think I'd been on his waitlist for like nine months. So, whenever you're on a waitlist a long time there's like built-up anticipation.
And I started talking, I started getting some emotion in my voice, which I hate when… and that's my first tell. I'm not really a crier, but you can hear it in my voice when I start feeling emotions. So, my voice started to shake. I don't even remember what I was talking about. But then I was like, sorry, I hate emotions, and then dah, dah, dah, and I kept talking.
My therapist, like, very just patient, curious man, after I stopped whatever rant I was on he was like, "I'm sorry, did you just say you hate emotions?" And here I am, like a psychologist in training, in my first therapy, with a psychoanalytic therapist. And I somehow without meaning to disclose this, like said, "I hate emotions." Which I just find kind of hilarious because A, I'm a therapist, emotions are my world. But also, very true. Like, I think I don't like… I mean, there's some emotions I like, but I do think I have this bias of I don't like feeling hijacked by emotions, I don't like the experience of emotions, I don't like the vulnerability of emotions. I definitely don't like feeling emotions in front of another human. I have a really complicated relationships to emotions, which is just kind of funny because I'm a freaking psychologist.
PATRICK CASALE: It's one of those therapist's things, right? Like, where both can be true. You know how often we like to throw that fucking phrase out there, but that is true because I imagine that when you're in the room with someone you are really attuned to them, and really absorbing, and picking up on their own emotion, and their own sensory overload, and stimulation, and everything that's happening for them. And what that does, I think the introspective, like, worldview of like, "But I really struggle with this." Is really honest, raw, and that's really true.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It's way easier to enter someone else's emotions than mine.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah, for sure. It's a lot safer to do that. There's a lot less vulnerability in it so as well, and I also struggle with what you're saying. Like, I don't get it in my throat. Usually, I'll be by myself, like, tearing up and my tenuous reaction is to, like, close my eyes really hard, and then just, it's gone. And my therapist would be like, "What the hell was that?"
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I like your therapist.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, she's good, she's like so tracking all this stuff. And, you know, I think it also feels like if I'm starting to feel like water behind my eyes, right, like when I'm starting to feel like that feeling, but my instinct is always to repress, and always to dissociate, and always to numb, and, you know, all that childhood trauma mixed with autism, neurodevelopmental stuff going on.
But like, I really have a hard time with that. And also, very typically just flat affect, like not showing a lot, blank stare a lot of the time. And I think that, you know, for people in our world, I imagine people who are close to us that can be very challenging as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, a couple episodes ago we talked about like special interests and that's when a person becomes animated. Like, I think my affect in my emotions and my face, when I'm talking about a special interest I can get in my emotions, but outside of that, yeah, I'm pretty flat.
I remember seeing a picture of myself, I think, I was in seminary at the time or college. And I looked so flat. And someone had taken out, I was like, in a classroom, and I was like, "Why do I look like that?" And the person who had taken it was like, "You always look like that." And I was shocked and I think if I'm not trying to manipulate my face, like right now I'm seeing myself on camera, I'm manipulating my face a little bit, like, super flat.
PATRICK CASALE: When that person said that what started to come up for you around that?
MEGAN NEFF: Like, I was a little bit horrified because I didn't like how it looked. It looked very serious, it looked very stern almost, and also, I didn't see myself that way. So, it was kind of one of those moments of like, "What's happening here?"
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, what about like, intensity? I think that [CROSSTALK 00:06:38].
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I'm intense. Is that what you're asking?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's the word that gets thrown around a lot. Yeah, like tensity. You know, because you're kind of like, you're flat, you're like just staring into that person's fucking soul. It's like, "But I'm not meaning to do that, it's just how I show up." And it's like, very intense. So, I think for people who don't know you well or have just met you, it's like, "Ooh, this is a bit of an intimidation or like this feels uncomfortable to some degree."
MEGAN NEFF: It's bare, right? The flat affect, there's like a bareness to it, a vulnerability to it that I think can be uncomfortable for a lot of people.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah because I think a lot of people are like, what do I say here? How do I react in this interaction?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that if my therapist or someone was to ask me how I'm feeling most of the time, I can't name it. I'm very often like-
MEGAN NEFF: Same.
PATRICK CASALE: …how am I feeling? It's not something I've been thinking about. I'm feeling like, I wish I could put it into words, like the constant feelings of the way I experience living. So, I'm hearing myself talking like, "What the fuck are you saying?"
The way I experience like my day-to-day is like this constant buzz of anxiety, and discomfort, and feeling unsettled. And just like, I'm even feeling it right now. Like, my legs are really tense, and I'm like, really shifting my ankles a lot of the time and like, I'm just so uncomfortable all the time. And I think if you were to ask me how are you feeling? That's how I'm feeling. But that's not a feeling word. Like, that's not an emotion. It's just-
MEGAN NEFF: Right, it's a sensory, uncomfortable.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: But that's constant. So, it's like you're living in this constant discomfort sensory hell and then overthinking everything, and analyzing everything, and absorbing everything. And I guess the emotion is, it's fucking exhausting. Like, that's, you know, a word I would use for a feeling word.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. You know, I wonder if that's part of it. I'm thinking while I'm talking here, always a fun dynamic. You know, emotions are a sensory experience. And I wonder if that's part of why a lot of us do shut down emotions is like, I'm so overwhelmed by my sensory system and sensory experience. There's no way I'm going to also, like, throw in emotions on top of that because it is a sensory experience. And so, I think if we're living in a world and we're overwhelmed by our sensory experience already, it actually is kind of an adaptive coping strategy to like, I'm going to shut down the emotional experience because I'm not going to add to the sensory load.
PATRICK CASALE: Right because that would just be way too much.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Because it already feels like too much a lot of the time. So, how can I possibly then tap into that world as well? And then, like, try to decipher what the hell is happening for me? I think that most people would describe me as, like, pretty calm and even-keeled a lot of the time. Like, I don't show the highs and lows very often. And like you said, special interests, maybe my energy levels will peak a bit, maybe my affect will, like, go up a bit. But honestly, it's pretty low most of the time. Like, I'm a pretty low-energy human being, and at least in terms of like, what I'm displaying, and putting out to the world, but in my mind I feel like it's going just constant, non-stop, thoughts just overwhelm, anxieties, panics, like ideas, creativity, like all the stuff, but it's like, very, very bare, and it's really not present or at least visible to the naked eye.
MEGAN NEFF: What do you… because I hear this a lot in autistic people, and I think it's one of the reasons we're often misunderstood in therapy. Like, what do you make of… So, internally, like, you're describing a very agitated, stressful, anxious experience, but people are reading it as calm. What do you make of that disconnect? And how does it impact you?
PATRICK CASALE: I don't know. I think it feels so just disjointed or just not congruent. Like, things feel so… I think, you can often feel misunderstood because your experience is not what they're experiencing because of how you're presenting. And so, you may be feeling like really agitated, or irritated, or stressed, but you're presenting very flat, and then you can sometimes… I should not generalize, I can sometimes then get frustrated with the receiving end of the other person because I'm like, "You're not, like, understanding how I'm experiencing life right now." But I'm also not giving you anything to work with, so it's really not on you to read my fucking mind.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's sort of like double reality. I imagine that adds to a lot of like, stress, and relationship confusion.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I know we've talked about that, too. Having, you know, difficulty in building and creating relationships because it's just a confusing… it feels like a, not a tornado because it's not the right word. It just feels like very scattered, like, everything feels like a blur behind the scenes. It's also, I don't know, it's hard to describe, and I realize that, like, as I'm saying that. I just think that it feels like there is a lack of congruency or a disconnect, like, between inner and outer world.
MEGAN NEFF: I really like how you say that, a disconnect between inner and outer world. Yeah, I feel that too, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It's hard.
MEGAN NEFF: It is.
PATRICK CASALE: What about for you? You know, like, when we're talking about this and you've mentioned before just being a high masking human being. And does it often feel similarly where, like, you're presenting one way in certain situations, but in the inside, it feels completely different?
MEGAN NEFF: I would say, historically, yes. My life has become really small. It's an interesting thing. I think when you have a lot of followers on social media or whatnot, people kind of assume a shiny, big life. Like, I rarely leave my house, I rarely interact with other humans outside of my immediate family and my clients who I see via teletherapy, everyone knows I'm autistic. Like, rarely am I in a space where people don't know I'm autistic.
So, I experience less of that now. But I experienced it all the time before. But so, it is interesting when you were talking about the inside and the outside not matching. Like, my default has always been like, "Oh, yeah." Because of masking. And I do think masking is a part of it. But it feels like more than that when I'm hearing you talk about it and when I think about, I don't have language yet for what it is, but it feels like more than masking, it feels like there's also something else. Like, the way our emotions are displayed and with the flat effect that you and I both experience versus like the agitated inside. I think there's more than masking happening there.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think you're right. I think we've also probably trained our nervous systems so well to suppress and repress, and like, really try hard to disconnect from what's happening.
MEGAN NEFF: It's adaptive.
PATRICK CASALE: It is adaptive, it is, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: It's not from the too-muchness, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I think what you're describing, and you talk about unmasking a lot, and sensory soothing, being around people who know who you are, in these small circles, I imagine, allows for a little bit of a reprieve or relief. Weirdly, like, you and I have talked about this. You mentioned Ireland before and now we're going to go into this world.
MEGAN NEFF: Awesome.
PATRICK CASALE: So, I think that when you develop a following, a lot of people can become agoraphobic or at least want to shut out the outside world even though you've created the outside world and your career is kind of dependent on. Like, I often say this all the time, I wish I could just disappear from it. Like, I don't enjoy-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, me too, me too.
PATRICK CASALE: …the parts that I've… But I've created this thing where I have to show up and I have-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, your livelihood depends on it now.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And, you know, Megan and I were talking before we were recording, I just got done hosting a retreat in Ireland, and we had 27 other people there that I was hosting and attending to, and I think it's become significantly more apparent to me how challenging that is emotionally.
And I try really hard, like, during the initial like, talk, where we are like, introducing ourselves and kind of setting tensions for the event, to just name how I'm experiencing life, and how I'm experiencing the sensory overload, and how I'm going to have to walk and like, step away more often than I would like to.
And I will also name like, you know, I'm autistic, I have no problem talking about that, and saying that, and sometimes in these small gatherings and social situations, I'm just going to have to leave. Like, I cannot stay here and make small talk or like, stare at you in your eyes, and like attend to you. I hope that nobody takes that personally. I say it very transparently, with the best of intentions, but I also know that sometimes inaction it may not come across as like caring and as attuned as I would like it to because of how overwhelmed you become and that is a challenge.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'm just thinking about how, like, going to grocery stores, or whatnot, or other people's houses was really overwhelming for me as a young mom when my kids were younger because I felt like I had to manage me, but I also felt like I had to manage my kids. And I'm just thinking about, like, there's something about when I needed to be, like, consciously aware of what other humans are doing. The idea of leading a retreat and like also thinking about me, like, you're not just in a room with 27 other humans, you're also, like, kind of managing their experience. Oh my gosh, like, wow, yeah, no, thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: It's a lot. And I think I've realized that I need a significant amount of recharge time in between because your system is just so overloaded with like, okay, you've got to communicate to the vendors, okay, you've got to manage… put out these little fires that are happening throughout [CROSSTALK 00:19:05].
MEGAN NEFF: And then to be social on top of that, that's the part. Like, if it was just mechanical, like, okay, logistics, dah, dah, dah, but then there's people coming up to you like talking when you're in your logistical [PH 00:19:15] brand, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It's really hard. So, I think that, you know, emotionally there are coping strategies, for sure, but a lot of them become unhealthy ones, as we've talked about, right? I was in Ireland, we have a keg of Guinness in the venue. I'm like, I'm going to drink the whole time because that's going to help me to show up in the way that I need to show up in and not just shut down. Not healthy at all, but certainly a reality for a lot of us, and yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'm going to do like the nerdy thing where I pop up into science here a little bit, but so, alexithymia or the difficulty… I actually don't know if I'm saying that word right, which is funny because I talk about it all the time. I've heard it pronounced a few different ways. I say alexithymia.
Alexithymia or the difficulty identifying emotions, not that uncommon, one in 10 people have it in the world, but among autistic people is like 50 to 60% of us have it. I have, at this point, I would say mild to moderate alexithymia because I've worked with it, like, I've done work around it to improve it. But those of us with alexithymia are way more likely to do what's called avoidant emotional coping, which is one of the reasons that we're more prone to mental health conditions. So, things like drinking, numbing out, like all of those, I'm avoiding the emotions, and we're just talking about our physical body, like our neurology that shuts down, like our neurology has taught us, like, shut down the emotion, shut down the emotion. So, it makes sense that then we'd also be drawn to more dissociative ways of coping, more avoidant ways of coping with emotions, which ultimately, does not tend to serve people well when we fall into these patterns.
PATRICK CASALE: No, it does not. But I appreciate it. I like hearing that. That's definitely true for me. I think, you know, like you mentioned before, trying to figure out why because it's not just the masking piece, right? And I think, like you said, it's adaptive, it's like, potentially, life-saving in situations and it's certainly protective. And I think that yeah, how often are you in a therapy session or in therapy, or, you know, in general, where someone's like, "Okay, we've got to get out of here." Like, my therapist says that to me all the time. She's like, "I know, you're going to talk about how you think about it, but I want to know how you feel about it." And I'm like, "Ooh."
MEGAN NEFF: Something… and I've said this before I knew as autistic, I was like, my thoughts are emotional. When I'm describing how I think about something, I'm feeling so much emotion in that, or when I'm describing a theory that I like, or a philosophy that I like, like I'm in my feelings. Like, right now just talking, I'm in my feelings, you can probably see it and hear it. So, I kind of feel like that's an allistic thing, this whole, like separation of thoughts and feelings that, personally, if I'm going to tell you how I'm going to feel I am going to use this.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And then, it's also a place of protection too.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I mean, I think that's what's tricky, is it can be a defense and like, this, I think, was one of Freud's, right, classic defenses, is kind of intellectualizing. But I've often wondered, like, is that applicable to autistic people? Not that we can't use it as a defense, I think we totally can. Also, I don't know, I think we've got more integrated emotion cognitive systems, or, like, I just see that more commonly where when people are describing their thoughts they are talking about their emotions.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense for sure. And I think you're right, it's an allistic viewpoint to say separate the two. And for a lot of people who can do that, that's fantastic. I find that very challenging to separate because if I'm putting the energy into talking about how I'm feeling or what's happening for me like that takes a lot of mental energy to do that. And I'm not doing it lightly to like dance around a thing, right? It's like, this is explaining my process. Like, you can already see how hard it is to explain my process. So, like, it gets even more challenging.
MEGAN NEFF: What if that's why we're more protective around our words, if because our words are like, more like metabolized, combined states. And I realize I feel like I'm starting to get into like, autistic people are better than… which I think is a dangerous territory. But like, I don't like to talk unless I want to talk. Like, I'm very scarce with my words. Like, I don't like to talk just to talk. And I think, I don't know, what if, what you're saying of like, you process your words and you metabolize them, like, before you use them. Maybe there's a more laborious process happening for us around our words.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that sounds like that makes sense to me. You're having a lot of profound moments today of these revelations but I think that-
MEGAN NEFF: I mean they're just theories. Like, let's not, this is like just Megan Annaisms theorizing, let's be clear about that.
PATRICK CASALE: I'll give Megan more credit than that. But I think that you're right. I think there is… because I mean, you know, I think that's why so often we're looking away before we talk, right? Because we're metabolizing what we want to say. We want to say it in a certain way, we want it to come across in a certain way. But there's a lot of intention that goes into speaking and communicating in general. And, you know, I think that also plays a role in terms of like not wanting to have small talk or wanting to have artificial conversation. It's like, there's so much energy that goes into communication. I don't want to lose that to-
MEGAN NEFF: Then there's no point to it.
PATRICK CASALE: …the stupid shit.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And it feels like a mini self-betrayal to say words that don't matter or that I don't mean. And I think that's what I mean about the integrated emotion and verbal systems of it feels really artificial, it feels like paper, it feels like that's the image in my mind when I'm saying words that I don't mean.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so it feels really thin and flimsy. Not a lot [INDISCERNIBLE 00:26:20] to stand on, it's not sturdy. Yeah, I think that makes sense, you know, because I've said it, you know, I know we all think this and say us a lot, but just the inability to have that small talk because of how torturous it can feel to be trapped in that conversation or it's just like, we really have to have these pleasantries to, like, have a conversation. I don't see the point of it, and it's so challenging, and I also know how often we, and I'm generalizing, can come across as rude, or dismissive, or like we just don't care. And there is a part of that, like, I just don't care. Like, there's a part of that.
MEGAN NEFF: There's a part of that that's true.
PATRICK CASALE: Or that's true, like, I don't fucking care, but like it's not because I don't care about the person it's just the amount of mental gymnastics my brain has to do in order to have the conversation isn't worth it to me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I like that distinction of it's not that I don't care about the person, it's just this isn't feeling… it doesn't feel like I'm contacting the person, so I don't care about this. Now, if it's a conversation where it feels like there's true contact or encounter then it feels different.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah and then you'll see the energy level change drastically and the engagement too, opposed to, like, the mentally or very, obviously, checked out, like, how do I get out of this conversation?
MEGAN NEFF: So, do allistic people feel like they're contacting each other through small talk? Because that would be, like, if they are then it's like, I have empathy for them. It's like, oh, no wonder they do this strange thing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I guess we should have some allistic people on here to ask them because I can't answer that, I have no idea.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that would be actually amazing. Like, I feel like I heard, this is not my idea, I know someone else had this idea that I'm borrowing it from, but like, interview an allistic. Like, there needs to be some way of, like, calling up your allistic person and be like, is this an allistic thing?
PATRICK CASALE: Like a little concierge service that you have [CROSSTALK 00:28:25]. You know, I really do want to know that because like, does this actually satisfy and feel like connection? Or is does this feel like expectation, but that it doesn't bother you enough to have this, like, very transactional conversation?
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I've seen it somewhere in some study that they get dopamine from it. So, I mean, that's cool.
PATRICK CASALE: And I appreciate that you mention, like, I have empathy then because I think that just sounds so exhausting.
MEGAN NEFF: Right, right. I would love to experience small talk as an allistic person just to understand, like, what other people are getting out of it because I can't understand it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think, you know, we can also segue into, eventually, like, top-down versus bottom up thinking too, and like do people really think this way? And it's like, oh, yeah. I mean, clearly, they do. But I don't and I think that the small talk thing is challenging and I think when we're trying to name emotions, if I was to name an emotion around small talk, I would say it's like, irritation, frustration, but it's visible because I am like, not good at, my wife would say that I'm not good at fixing my face, but if I want to get out of something, I'm going to make it very clear that I want to get out of something. Like, I'm like looking for the exit point and like, backing away physically or like, whatever the case may be, and someone's like, "What the fuck is happening?" But I can't do it.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm a little bit more discreet than you. It sounds like I get claustrophobic. Like, my feeling, I would feel claustrophobic, it starts to feel a little bit dissociative for me not on like large scale, but just like that kind of settle fogging out. It kind of feels like I'm, like, telling myself what to do and walking through, like, okay no, dah, dah, dah. So, I feel really trapped, but it takes me a while before I'll get to the point of backing off and leaving.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah. I mean, I try to do a better job, but I have such a hard time because it really does become like this visceral physiological reaction where I'm like-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, totally.
PATRICK CASALE: "I got to get out of this. Like, this is torturous." So, yeah, we need to do some further exploration of like, I would like to have allistic people on to ask these questions, too. I want to know, like, if it really feels satisfying to be like, "Hey, how's your day going? How's the weather? Like, how was work?" All the questions that like make me just cringe and want to crawl out of my skin.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we should find an allistic person to come on, if you're listening, and you're allistic, and you want to come be our spokesperson for all allistic people.
PATRICK CASALE: I have a perfect person in mind. My partner in hosting a lot of my retreats is the exact opposite, a neurotypical, bubbly as hell, happy all the fucking time. And I'll say this, you know, to Jennifer's face, and if you listen to this episode, I love you. But, like, in the morning, in Ireland, like, wants to make small talk, and I'm just like staring at her like, she's like, "Are you okay." I said, "Jen, I really just…"
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, let's have her on.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I just-
MEGAN NEFF: I love that, ask an allistic, I will do the [CROSSTALK 00:32:07].
PATRICK CASALE: I was having this conversation, like, that'd be good. I'm going to [CROSSTALK 00:32:11].
MEGAN NEFF: Let's wait for, okay, but we should wait till we're live so that people who are listening to this can also put in their questions.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. Okay, that's fair.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I think we can make some captions for Insta just asking questions that people want answered because I really want these answers.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, what do you want to know from an allistic? I really need to, or there's some times where I'm like, I think this is an autistic thing. But like, I don't know, and so there's some things of like, is this normal human thing? Or is this an autistic thing? Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I think it sounds fantastic. So, something to be curious about, and I, again, just circling back, you know, if you're listening, and you're allistic, and you're having any sort of, you know, emotion around what we're talking about, we don't mean any disrespect by any means. But I think that it would be nice to know the complete different perspective in terms of how you move through the world because I personally was thinking about, like, sending emails and how I have to like, I want to get right to the fucking this point. And I have to like, circle back. And I'm like, "How are you?" And it's always like, "Hope you're doing well." Then [CROSSTALK 00:33:25]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …emoji [CROSSTALK 00:33:28] like-
MEGAN NEFF: Totally. Okay, this is total rabbit trail. So, I know we're both in the creator space and there's a lot of thoughts about ChatGPT and I don't want to get into that. But here's a thought I've had, I think ChatGPT, if used well, can really increase accessibility for autistic people.
So, for example, something I've done a few times is I'll put in an email and be like, "Hey, this is the email I want to write." And I don't always use it. And if I use it at all, I'm manipulating it quite a bit. But just seeing an example of like this is what an email, this is what a business email should look like has been so helpful because a lot of autistic people we need to see a visual example to really understand it. So, that's one way that I've been using ChatGPT and that I'm encouraging some people depending on their context of like, if you don't know how to write that email, throw it in ChatGPT, tell them who you're sending it to, at least just to get a sample. But I think ChatGPT, one thing it does is it translate autistic to allistic speech.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a great idea. I had never thought about using it that way. I've just been using it to like write marketing emails and I had it write a 20-page kid's book for me just to see if it could. It's really-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think we hopped on right after you had [INDISCERNIBLE 00:34:49] from that, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: World-changing stuff, honestly, but that is such a good idea because I'm thinking about the emotional labor that goes into trying to communicate in an [INDISCERNIBLE 00:34:59] neurotypical world and how much, like, questioning, and self-doubt, and stress, and frustration, and overwhelm goes into communication? And it gave me the simplest stuff. And I think it feels so freeing when you can just be like, here's the point, like here. I'm sending it to you because that's what I need to get across.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've started to send more emails that way, too. Like, there's some times where I will put in the effort to make it sound more allistic. But I've started just sending more direct.
The other thing I've started doing, this one's harder for me, so as a kid, I definitely had surface-level dyslexia and I'm seeing it now that I have that lens. I'm like, "Oh, I see it." Like, I'll misspell words or… I have a lot of grammar errors, but also, like, I'll spell a word that I wasn't meaning to spell. And I used to get really obsessive in looking through my emails for all grammar errors.
At this point, I probably get 100 emails a day. So, like, I can't do that. So, I'm sending, it's like, either don't respond or I'm going to be sending off like grammatically incorrect emails. And so, that's something I'm doing, of like getting more comfortable sending off imperfect emails.
PATRICK CASALE: I like that. I sometimes mess my emails up, like, purposefully to [INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:21] some of that rigidity and perfectionism that shows up to be like, send it. Like, you know, what's the end of the world here? And 99% of time people don't say anything, 1% of time, someone's like, "Oh, you spelled this wrong." I'm like, "Well, I guess you're probably not someone who we're going to work together with."
I was thinking, I don't want to diverge too much right now, but I was thinking about, like, allistic business meetings at work. Like, I used to be in leadership. And I felt like we just had meetings to have meetings to have meetings [CROSSTALK 00:36:56].
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, oh, my gosh [CROSSTALK 00:36:57] so physically painful.
PATRICK CASALE: …had five meetings scheduled today about the same thing. [INDISCERNIBLE 00:37:03] just, like, talked about and figured out in 10 minutes, but yet, I spent seven hours doing this. And I remember years ago I asked the meeting coordinator, I'm like, "Do you just enjoy scheduling these things so that you can just sit here and like, socialize and connect with people all day? Because we are talking about the same fucking thing over and over, there is a solution, we've come to it. Why are we still here?" And she just looked at me like, "What is wrong with you? Why would you say that to me?" But I couldn't handle it anymore. I just can't get behind that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think that's one reason I worked for myself is meetings are so painful. Talk about the physical pain that you sometimes describe. When I'm in a meeting, I feel a lot of like physical discomfort. I'm often trying to like… like, I'll often be sketching out a to-do list, but my brain has to be productive if it's a pointless meeting because it's so aggravating in my body.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. When I hold staff meetings for my group practice, I have a bullet point list and I'm just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, like let's get this done, I don't want to sit here for an hour. And yeah, we need to have this episode for sure. I want to have her on. And I want to know these thoughts about like, what feels commonplace? What feels like very typical? What feels like very comfortable and what feels uncomfortable about all of this stuff?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited for this episode.
PATRICK CASALE: She's going to be the perfect person because Jennifer is the epitome of like, yeah, everything we're talking about right now, perfect person.
MEGAN NEFF: We could do a mini-series, we could do ask an allistic. Here's the other thing I'd be curious about is ask an ADHDer, someone who we know is not also autistic, and then, ask an autistic, someone who is autistic and not ADHD because I'm also always like, is this ADHD? Is this autism? And we could have a like-
PATRICK CASALE: I like this.
MEGAN NEFF: …ask a allistic, ask a ADHDer, ask an autistic.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, we're going to do this. For all of you listening, if you've been listening so far please send us your questions. We want to have them answered from different perspectives and different neuro types. So, I really would like to have these conversations and hopefully, they can be eliminating to some of us including ourselves.
So, emotions are challenging, like we've talked about. I think that Megan's brought up a lot of good points for me to consider too in terms of the way I've been thinking about things. And I do think to continue having these conversations around how emotions show up and how you can express yourselves without having to name your feelings because I think that is a really important part of this too.
MEGAN NEFF: Sorry, I'm just having a moment and I could be totally wrong, did we hit record?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, we did.
MEGAN NEFF: We did. Okay, I'm sorry. I just wanted to know, like I don't remember.
PATRICK CASALE: We're trying to record on a Saturday today, to batch some recordings. I think we're at our limit so…
MEGAN NEFF: You said something and my brain went off, I'm like, did we hit record? I think you said something nice. I'm sorry, I don't know how to respond because I missed it.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, so I think-
MEGAN NEFF: Sorry, I totally ruined it.
PATRICK CASALE: …we're at our awkward transition point where we don't know how to say goodbye and…
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yes.
PATRICK CASALE: …all of you listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast, new episodes out every single week on all major platforms. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Goodbye.
