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The Divergent Conversations Podcast is hosted by Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals and entrepreneurs, as well as features other well-known leaders in the mental health, neurodivergent, and neurodivergent-affirming community. Listeners know, like, and trust the content and professionals on this podcast, so when they hear a recommendation on the podcast, they take action.


Episode 39: Reflection and Intention: Mapping Energy, Setting Boundaries, and Finding Balance

Feb 01, 2024
Divergent Conversations Podcast

Show Notes

It’s important to take moments to pause and reflect on what is going well in your life and what you want to change moving forward, especially when you have more limited energy to invest into what you choose.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk about the importance and benefits of reflection and intention setting, as well as the shame, impact, and FOMO that can be experienced when addressing expectations and embracing limitations. They also share some of their own intentions and the emotions that accompany them as they move forward into the new year.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

  1. Understand the importance of being intentional with time and energy, and hear about Patrick and Dr. Neff’s struggles with workaholism and difficulty in setting boundaries.
  2. Identify some areas to evaluate in your life to help with assessing what will fill versus drain your cup, as well as address some of the emotions and challenges that can arise in facing them.
  3. See what plans and intentions Patrick and Dr. Neff have for 2024, as well as the emotions that arise with evaluating where to spend their energy, capacity, and focus.

It can be easy sometimes to get caught up in the excitement of making plans, but before the year fills with new activities, take a moment to pause and reflect on what you would like to include and even maybe remove from your life to help find more balance.

Pre-Order Self-Care For Autistic People: 

Dr. Neff is running a promotional this month. If you pre-order Self-Care for Autistic People you will also get a free digital workbook through Neurodivergent Insights. To learn more about this sign up here:


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PATRICK CASALE: So, it is the second day of 2024. And we are going to talk a little bit today about what we want more of in this new year, what we want less of, some intention setting, and kind of explain our own processes and behind-the-scenes for everyone. I hope you all had a happy, healthy new year. And we know this episode is not coming out until the middle of February. But I think it's a good topic that you just suggested. So, what feels important for you going into this new year?

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, gosh, so many things. Yeah, I've been thinking about this topic a lot. I don't know about you, I have mixed feelings about New Year resolutions. I think my demand avoidance kicks in around that. But I do really love the practice of pausing and reflecting like what went well and 2023, what would I like to do differently moving forward? So, kind of intention setting.

So, I'm definitely doing some intention-setting moving into 2024. For me, my biggest one is health. That probably won't be a surprise to you or for listeners. Like, ever since 2020, so I got COVID March of 2020. I was speaking at an event like the week the world shut down, and I got it at that event. I have so much regret. There's so much regret when you have a chronic illness. I wouldn't have gone but I was the keynote speaker. But I went and I got it. And I've been sick ever since. And in the last year, I feel like it's really spiraled. I think I'm in some unhealthy health spirals. And I've been learning more about POTS and just dystonia. And learning about how the like, you stop moving, because it's hard to move. And then that makes things worse. And I'm definitely in that spiral.

So, for me wanting to reverse some of the health spirals I'm in is a big one. But to do that, Patrick, I have to stop being a workaholic. And to do that I've got to work through some deep psychological shit. So, that's where I'm at for 2024. How about you?

PATRICK CASALE: I love it. I love that you just named it like that, because that's really what it is, right? Some deep psychological shit. Especially, I want to highlight the fact that you're still an active, working, licensed psychologist. So, when we're talking about like stepping away and finding out a new balance, and figuring out the way we want our year to look, where we want to put our energy, man, there's some deep-rooted stuff there, because I know when I stepped away from working as a therapist last fall before my throat surgery, it was hard. So, I can deeply empathize and resonate with that feeling.

And I know there's so much like, for me, there was like shame, abandonment, I'm I abandoning the profession? You work so hard to get this life and all the things. But prioritizing my health was so crucial to be able to do anything, especially, with this newfound like vocal capacity/restriction. I feel like my voice is like a cell phone battery at this point in time. And once it's gone for the day, it's just gone.

So, I think similarly to you, for 2024, my goal is to continue to shift into more intentionality behind the things I say yes to. And when you're a, "Workaholic." Or, I mean, I think a lot of us as neurodivergent folks enjoy work, too. It's a means of connection with the world and people around us. So, I'm not always like a workaholic fan of that label. But-

MEGAN NEFF: We've talked about that before, actually. And I've only recently started embracing it, because actually, I'm finding it helpful to name it, because you and I, one of our first podcast, on your other podcast, we talked about work being play for us. And so it is really complicated. And it's more complicated than like classic workaholism, because I work to escape my overwhelm.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, escaping the overwhelm to help regulate your sensory system, probably, in some instances to dissociate when you need to, and to feel like you're a part of, right? Like, that, for me is so huge to feel like I'm a part of. So, it's hard to turn it off when that's a big source of your connection with the world.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: But I do think, for me, what's been helpful is to constantly do this almost like internal evaluation and analyzation of does this thing feel energizing? Does this thing feel like something that is going to cause me to have, is there going to be a cost associated with this? And then like you've mentioned before, like the green/red light system, of just kind of weighing out, is this going to be worth saying yes to because I think I get excited about things. I impulsively say yes or commit to things, and then we've talked about this, like, my autistic side part is like, "What are you doing? This is torturous. Like, this is too much."

And the ADHD is like, "Hell, yeah, this sounds so fun. Let's get on another plane. Let's go to another country." I was just texting you yesterday about, I don't know if I want to do this on air, booking a flight to Romania with my dad for July when I was like, "July is going to be my month where I don't do anything." So, not off to a good start.

But I think intentionality is huge, figuring out where I want to spend my energy, my capacity, my focus, constantly reevaluating that too, and giving myself permission to pivot, and adapt, and change as I go, because things that light me up today may not in six months, and I don't want to shame myself for letting go of something that I might commit energy to.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: That was long-winded, sorry.

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, I feel like usually I'm the long-winded one. So, please, never apologize.

Yeah, I mean, I think what you're getting at is so key when we do have limited… whatever the limited, right? Like, limited energy, limited vocal. Like, we've got to get so crystal clear about our values, and meaning, and purpose, and like what we're saying yes to.

And I think, for both of us, and I think for a lot of neurodivergent people, like, the knee-jerk reaction to say yes, like, that is a hard thing to curb. And my spouse recently, like, actually, just over this last week was like, and he doesn't make requests to me often, but he was like, "Can you please not say yes to anything until you get your work life, like, in balance?" Because I've been working just kind of ridiculous hours. And he's like, "I feel your stress when you're stressed."

And that was a big deal for him to ask something like that. And yeah, so curbing that knee jerk reaction to say yes is hard.

PATRICK CASALE: It's really hard. Especially I think, even harder at times when you start to develop kind of what we've developed in our lives where it comes to like having a following, having an audience, creating promotion, creating any sort of material that you're going to be publicizing, you're writing books. Like, you know, there's so much going on. So, it's so hard to be like, "Oh, if I turn these opportunities away, or if I do less of this, then therefore does that like completely shift the projection or the trajectory of my professional career path?"

I've had to get really comfortable with the uncomfortable with saying no, and I'm usually very responsive. There's definitely some people-pleasing tendencies. And also just the fact that I would also label myself as a workaholic.

So, major throat surgery has allowed me to have a escape from having to say yes to things like I'm no longer really doing one-on-one coaching or group coaching programs. And I'm really focusing my energy on the retreats, and the podcasts, and some other stuff that's going on. But other than that, I don't really know what else I could do.

And I think that, for me, is challenging, because then that feels limiting. And I hate that feeling of like, "Oh, I can't do this thing, or I don't have the ability to move through this next thing that I want to create." So, that has definitely been like an internalized struggle for sure over the last year.

MEGAN NEFF: Like the struggle of encountering your limits?


MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: I have a newfound perspective on like, you know, sensory struggles, and energy, and social struggles, and just the way so many little things can impact me emotionally, that I have to almost feel like I'm like so freaking vigilant all the time of every single possible scenario. And I'm like, thinking, right? "We're in January, my year is about to just get chaotic. And in the next five months up until June 3rd, I'll be in five different countries, speak at two different conferences, and host four different retreats. And just saying that out loud is a lot.

MEGAN NEFF: It's a lot.

PATRICK CASALE: And I know the cost of like, what that's going to do to me, and the in-between, and once it's all over. And I think for me, I'm like been mentally preparing for this thing and now it's here. It's so hard because then you really don't even live in the present moment of like, here are all the things you should be enjoying and experiencing. And instead, I'm thinking about like, can't wait till June 3rd when it's all over.

MEGAN NEFF: That's so sad. Like, you've set up this career, this business to have the life you want but it doesn't sound like you want it.

PATRICK CASALE: Mixed emotions, for sure. Parts of me really do and parts of me really don't. And I think that's really this polarizing feeling and experience of like, okay, I've created this thing. Your name is associated with like putting on these really high-quality events. They're good moneymakers. You get to meet people and get to travel the world, etc.

And then the flip side, the other side of the coin is like exhaustion, depletion, dissociation, probably increased substance use to deal with said experiences. Travel is just exhausting. I mean for anybody, let alone people, and our systems, all the things, all the social contact, all the small talk, all the everything. It sounds fucking horrible as I'm explaining it [CROSSTALK 00:11:23]-

MEGAN NEFF: It does. And maybe I'm like putting my own stuff on you, but it almost sounds like when you describe it, right? Like, you know, good reputation, travel, like you should want it, but you don't which I feel like, I mean, I can relate to that. And I feel like it's a really common autistic experience. Like, I should want this really glamorous thing. But in reality, the reality of it doesn't live up to the hype.

PATRICK CASALE: That's so true. And that's so much of my existence is like this glamorization or romanticizing, of like, how life could be or be experienced. And this happens constantly. I've talked about this, of like, get excited. I told you, I was excited about planning the trip to Romania. I'm probably more excited about the planning piece than the actual experience piece. And then once I touch down I'll be like, "This wasn't what I wanted it to be, it didn't go as I wanted it to be. I'm more overwhelmed or I'm more overstimulated than I had intended." Now I have to do constant work to regulate myself. And I think that's just such an exhausting experience to like, constantly be regulating, and constantly be like having to be one step ahead, just to like, make it through the day.

MEGAN NEFF: One the letdown, and this reminds me of… and now it's going to be a while since our listeners heard this but the attachment episode released recently, and this idea that in fantasy, we get to experience things in a way our bodies don't actually experience in reality.

So like, say my fantasy of travel, again, I'm going to put it like in a pretty, like, polarizing way, but in my fantasy of travel, I'm not autistic, I don't have sensory issues. I'm like, oh, I can be flexible with change. And then the reality, it's like, "Oh, wait, no." Yeah, your body doesn't love this. I mean, part of your part of you loves this. But there's so many experiences like that where the anticipation, it's like I forget my limits, because the anticipation and fantasy are so intertwined. And then the reality hits and like, so it's interesting.

One thing we know from brain chemistry and I'm diving into this right now, because I'm doing some work on habits, it's really interesting. It's the anticipation of something we're looking forward to where the dopamine starts releasing. So, even for someone with like, like a substance addiction, it is the anticipation of the coke or the wine. So, like we desire better than we want, or no, what was it? We desire better than we like. I read that in one of the books, I can't remember the author.

And this idea that there's more dopamine in anticipating. So, when you're anticipating a trap, right? So much dopamine.

For a natural like neurotypical brain, there's going to be that fallout of like, and then the real things not as good, but now I'm thinking about okay, but for the autistic person where it's not that it's not just as good as the anticipated, but it's actually a letdown, because it's hard, it's sensory dysregulating. I'm just thinking about that experience of that juxtaposition of this thing has gotten me through the last month, because I've been looking forward to it, and here it is, and I'm disappointed, and there's this drop.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and good juxtaposition is the fact that, like, upon landing, arriving, checking in, whatever, the letdown is almost immediate. It's like, everything just hits you sensory-wise, and you just absorb the energy at the airport, and the stress of travel, and being around all the people, and all the things, and all sudden your system is just like so out of whack that you don't know what to do. And I so often find myself being like, can I come home now? Like, I just got here? Can I come home now?

MEGAN NEFF: I think I feel that anytime I leave. So, we went to Canada for a month in August, and the first few days I was really dysregulated. And that was a really calm, like, we got an Airbnb, but it was just like the routine disruption. The house was actually next to a highway which I wasn't expecting. And I just was like, "When do I get to go home?" Like, and then the added pressure of like, I spent so much money to like take time away from work, to come here, and like I just want to go home. This, Patrick, is why I like barely leave my house, which I don't know, maybe I should do more of in 2024, but…

PATRICK CASALE: Is that one of the intentions being set? But I get that because then there's like all this pressure to "Enjoy." Or at least, like, get the most of it, right? And I imagine for you, just like for me, if I have this free time, like yesterday was New Year's Day, I have nothing to do. And I'm like, "I should go do my content. Like, I should go do something." I struggle so much to just be like, "You have a free day on your calendar, you just get to relax." And like that could not feel further from relaxation for me, so…

MEGAN NEFF: A free day for me on my calendar means I have time to do a deep-focus project. It means like no meetings, that my inbox is somewhat tamed, like, and then it's like, oh, God, I got to like, you know, do a deep dive into something where it's not the pings and the pongs, it's flow state.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, which is great. Like, I love getting into that flow state. And I also recognize how hard it is for me to say like, I'm going to try really hard in 2024 to be less of a "Workaholic." And then in my free time, I'm going to work, or I'm going to do something, or I'm going to be productive. And it's so hard to just be like, I'm just going to relax and be that's not a thing.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, I think it's probably got to be more active. I think I'm thinking about that too. Like, I have to replace work with something, because relaxing, I know we've talked about this, relaxing and doing nothing, it's not actually relaxing for either of us.


MEGAN NEFF: So, for me, it would have to be like, I'm going to go… Like, I actually live near a green space. So, it's like, I'm going to, like, go on walks for X amount of times on days my body will allow that.

So, for me, I have to fill the space with other things, otherwise, my default is work. So, yes, I think it does have to be more active planning than, "I'm just going to relax or do nothing, I'm going to do this."

PATRICK CASALE: Totally. I agree, 100%. And the interesting thing is you live near green space. I live in the mountains of western North Carolina. Like, there's green space everywhere. Yeah, first go and take advantage of it as often as we could or should, and we end up doing the things that we're talking about, like, and maybe it's dissociation sometimes, maybe it's just hyper-focus, maybe it's just flow state, but that's where I end up defaulting to I think so often.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me, like, the idea of, I get a lot of FOMO when I walk away. So, it's hard to walk away, because it feels like, if my default is work, it feels like anything I do outside of that is taking time away from the thing I want to be doing, should be doing. And again, my work is tied to special interests. So, it's also that whole, like, you're taking me away from my interest to go do this other thing. And so changing that mindset.

I think for me it's the FOMO is going to get, I think, really intense. It already has. Like, it's this weird thing, Patrick. Like, I honestly don't know why I have the following size, I do. Like, there's a lot of other wonderful autistic educators out there doing amazing things. Like, I don't know why I have the following size I do.

But because I do I'm getting increasingly like more prestigious opportunities. And those are the things that it's like if I say yes to this, this could like, you know, elevate me as this autistic psychologist, blah blah blah. Like all these grandiose fantasies. And then to say no to that feels like, I don't know, there's so much FOMO now and I think that's what's driving a lot of my difficulty walking away. So, I've got to like maybe some of my deep psychological shit is working through like grandiose fantasies of self.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that makes so much sense though. Like, that grandiose fantasy of like, look at what life could… again, this is similar to this travel thing and this romanticized idea of like, if I, I don't like to use the word level up, that feels like, very mainline market, but if I prop myself up by having these relationships, you don't know where that's going to take you, right? What opportunities that's going to lead to.

And there's a lot of positive that comes with that, there's reinforcement, there's definitely validation, there can be monetary, you know, gain as well, there could be prestige in that. So, like, I get why that feels alluring and appealing. I also understand how that can prevent you then from saying like, how do I step away? Or what do I say yes to versus what do I say no to?

And I think that's a challenge constantly. What do I say yes to? What do I say no to? What do I want more of? What do I want less of? And I'm trying really hard this year, and all years going forward to really think about that before I like, say yes, to take that step back to really reevaluate it, because otherwise, your schedule becomes like a game of Tetris. And I think that feels like the walls closing in a bit, in a lot of ways.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. There's a kind of reflection prompt I came across recently that I really like. And I've been experimenting with it, usually, through like more, I try to do kind of a free-associative, like visioning around it, because I access my unconscious mind better that way. But it's what is your ideal day? Because the idea that like our life is made up of our days, and right? You and I can talk about like, this is what we want in our businesses, this is what we want in our professional life, but like at the end of the day, what is the ideal day?

And I think about that a lot in the sense that I think professionally where I feel pulled toward does not align with what my ideal day looks like. And I actually am having a lot of difficulty even getting clear about what my ideal day is. But I love that as a thought experiment for crafting a life is going back to that really fundamental like, what's your morning look like? What's your afternoon? What's your evening? Like, how do you want to spend your day? Because that says how you want to spend your life?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that a lot. And I agree that the difficulty is there in like accessing it, and really getting clarity on it, because so many of us are like, analyzing moment by moment, we're experiencing how we move through the world moment by moment. And if we are so zoomed out on like, projects and what comes next and future plans, it gets so easy to just overlook the fact that like, day-by-day, it's just kind of we're just skating through it or just not even paying much attention to what's happening around us.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. How would you answer that? What's your ideal day? Can you answer it?

PATRICK CASALE: No, I think I think it depends on the day. I do think that, you know, I'm not a morning person, so I wouldn't start anything before 10:30, which I hardly ever do. And I would end everything before like 3:00 PM. But I need more balance. I think that's the reality, like you mentioned, being more or having more active stuff in my calendar. I think getting more physically active for me is important.

So, playing soccer twice a week is not enough. We are on a major break right now until the end of February. So, I have nothing going on. And for me, soccer has been so important that like, I have to replace that with something. So, I'm yet to figure out what that is in 37 years of life. But that is something I want to actively work towards, like that social component, that physical component. Like, just that thing to look forward to, which I don't have right now. If it's not like, oh, here's the next trip, here's the next retreat, here's the next experience. I need something like that to have more consistency in my world.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: My friend keeps trying to get me to play pickleball with her and I really don't understand what pickleball is, but [CROSSTALK 00:24:22]-

MEGAN NEFF: It's fun.


MEGAN NEFF: It's fun. Yeah, the house we were at last year there's pickleball court right next to it. And we got into it, particularly, my son and spouse. But yeah, it's actually pretty fun. I recommend.

PATRICK CASALE: So, yeah. You know, might do that. She's been asking me for a while. So, I think I'll try and take that on. But yeah, I don't know what my ideal day looks like. I think that's the challenge is the clarity piece. And it's hard to have clarity if you're always busy or you're always immersed in something, too.

MEGAN NEFF: Or if you're always letting the fantasy make things seem better than they are.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, how do we stop doing that?

MEGAN NEFF: I think reflect. Like, paying attention, paying attention, reflecting. Like, okay, I was excited about that. How was that in reality? Is there a way to make that experience different? I feel like I've been doing a lot more of that the last few years, just paying attention to what feels good, what feels bad, what feels neutral? How does it stack up to my fantasy of it?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. I know that you and I are kind of actively or passive, I don't know if the word's passively or actively working on a community for neurodivergent entrepreneurs and thought leaders. And for me, I continue to revisit that to say like, is this something you really want to commit to? And the answer continues to be yes.

The challenge for me is time. It's always time. That's always my struggle is like, even the things that I want to do and say yes to more of like, but where does it fit? So, that means I have to start eliminating things that prevent me from doing the things that are yes and the things that I'm definitely interested in, because the things that I'm just kind of like, "I'm doing this." Or, "I feel like I should be doing this." That doesn't really work for my life anymore.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's what I want to do more in 2024 is like actually an inventory of where my time's going. I've started doing that. Like, I do a ton of admin tasks that I should be able to outsource. But I struggle with outsourcing. And starting to track like, okay, is this something I can outsource? Is this something that I need to be doing versus can I hire someone to do this? To like, yeah, get clear about that, so that I can architect my time to where I'm spending more of it in things that… like the community we talked about.

Like, the one thing in 2023 that I loved was I launched my Neurodivergent Insights learning community, which is more interactive than the membership I had before. And I'm realizing that's the one place that it doesn't feel like work. Like, I laugh when I'm in there. I like feel connected, it feels so meaningful. And I think that's why I started Instagram. But then that just got so big, so fast that it lost the community feel.

And so community, that would be another intention for 2024 is I really am craving more thoughtful community. And so I think that's partly why I'm excited about the project we've talked about is it's a slightly different community. It's a community of, yeah, kind of thought leaders and artistic entrepreneurs, because there's not really a lot of spaces for us, like, and I think there are some spaces for ADHD entrepreneurs, but not, yeah, so, yeah, community, that would be another intention for 2024, for me.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that. Yeah, I think community feels really grounding to kind of anchor into and I would agree, I would add that to my list. So, community and intentionality. And I think just more, yeah, community and intentionality. And just really being more introspective about the things that I want more of than the things that I want less of working through some of that, like you said before, some of that deeper shit, and some of the guilt with saying no to things. And I think that's natural as human beings, we typically don't want to like let people down or let opportunities slip by.

But I've learned in the last couple of years that the more I say no to things that I don't really want to do, it opens up space for the things that I want to say yes to. And it allows for more energy, it allows for more clarification, it allows for more intentionality. So, I think that's my goal.

MEGAN NEFF: I love that as a goal. Yeah, okay. There's some like clever quote out there, I can't remember it. But it's like, when you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else, but making that front and center, like making it visible what you're saying no to. So, like, for me, I think I've been saying no to my health for a long time, because I've been saying yes to a lot of other things. And so I like that practice of getting clear. Like, if I say yes to this, what does it mean I'm saying no to?

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Yeah. And I like the ability to, like, circle back to things and take a look at them again, and kind of do like an internal scaling or weighing of like, okay, this idea felt really great, but does it still feel good today? Is it still a nine out of a 10 today? Now it feels more like a five. Well, it's probably more likely I can cross that off the list or I don't have to prioritize it right now. And I think we've talked about this, but the beauty of that is like, you can always circle back to this stuff like something you feel energized about today and then use that drive for. Doesn't mean it goes away forever. You can circle back to it two years from now. And it can be a completely different perspective, too. So, I try to look at it from that lens as well.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Folks with the FOMO, I imagine.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure, because I think so many of us have heard like, 'Oh, you're lazy, you get so easily distracted, you don't follow through on things." And then like, you can say yes to things specifically to combat that narrative, but if reality is like, I don't really want to do it, you're setting yourself up to put yourself in a position where your energy is going to continue to get drained. So, try to avoid that, too.

MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: So, let us know on Instagram or wherever you find our podcast what your intentions are for 2024 and what you want more of, and what you want less of, and let's hold each other accountable. And stay tuned for the Neurodivergent… What are we calling it?

MEGAN NEFF: I don't think, like we don't have a name yet. We have played with like Divergent Minds because it's a play-off of Divergent Conversations.

PATRICK CASALE: That's right.

MEGAN NEFF: But then I realized there's that book Divergent Minds, so we don't have a name yet. Maybe people can help us come up with a name. But yeah-

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, that would be good.

MEGAN NEFF: …a community for autistic entrepreneurs and thought leaders.


MEGAN NEFF: ADHDers are welcome too, but I think we'll probably center the autistic experience a little bit more than the ADHD knowing us.

PATRICK CASALE: Probably so. So, stay tuned for that. And keep us posted. Let us know, send us a message and put a comment in our Instagram stories or our feed, and we'll happily circle back to this stuff. And I'm kind of excited to see next year if we stay the course. And where this goes from here.

MEGAN NEFF: Same, same.

PATRICK CASALE: All right, everyone. Well, new episodes are out every Friday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Happy New Year. And, goodbye.


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