Episode 144 (Season 5): Neurodivergent Advocacy in Turbulent Times and The Future of Divergent Conversations

Show Notes

Living through uncertain times as a neurodivergent person can feel overwhelming, with the world constantly shifting and the weight of global and personal challenges piling up. In moments like these, knowing how to show up, preserve your energy, and find a sense of agency can be both confusing and crucial.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss navigating overwhelm, advocacy, and community involvement during times of societal upheaval. They explore the emotional reality of living through constant crises, the unique stressors for neurodivergent individuals, and how to find paths toward meaningful resistance, connection, and hope—even when capacity feels low. Together, they share candid reflections about balancing activism, self-preservation, content creation, and the ongoing work of staying regulated and connected.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Gain insight into managing overwhelm and advocacy as a neurodivergent person, including how to channel nervous system arousal into meaningful action, avoid shame-based paralysis, and find sustainable ways of resisting and contributing.
2. Hear real-life examples and coping strategies for regulating your nervous system amidst media overload, doomscrolling, and the nonstop news cycle, with practical suggestions for curating content and sustaining your energy.
3. Join a vulnerable, validating conversation about the challenges of showing up authentically as a neurodivergent creator and community member, especially when the world's demands feel impossible—plus, hear updates about the podcast’s evolving approach to sustainability and intentionality.

If you’ve been questioning how to take care of yourself while also caring about the world, or need reminders that community and connection are possible even in hard times, this conversation will offer solidarity, hope, and practical support.

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff. 

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. It has been a while. And there is admittedly a lot going on, both in our lives and obviously, in the lives of all of you. 

I don't know where to start with this. We've been like rambling off-screen before recording, because we're trying to figure out how to make this podcast work, make it useful, have it be timely in this moment, and also, honor our capacity. And it's feeling increasingly more and more challenging to do all of those things simultaneously.

MEGAN NEFF: I was literally just having the same thought around like, how do we enter this conversation? So much time has passed since we were recording. Like, our last batch record was in August. And the world, it's, yeah. I don't know how we're going to get into this conversation. I do trust once we get into it, it'll be a good and connecting conversation. But it is a bit hard to find, like our entry point or our foothold.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think what we had talked about was, for a while, we were going to rearrange how this podcast comes out because both of us have a lower energy season right now, and we have a lot of demands on our plate. Both of us are writing books with manuscripts that are due on dates that felt like they were very long ago. And they no longer feel that way, but…

MEGAN NEFF: It happens so quickly, right? At one point, like July 2026, it's like, “Oh, I've got all the time in the world.” Like, what?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, May 2026 felt like an eternity ago. And I was like, “Oh, that's so much time.” And now, the walls are really closing in and creating a lot of pressure. 

But I think that, although that is true, I think what's really, also coming up a lot for both of us and for a lot of you listening is just every day it feels like there is just a barrage of information, atrocity, a new horror, so to speak, stuff that just completely consumes and overrides. And I think that's really challenging to meet the moment as a source of media, as a podcast. You know, we wrestle with how much of ourselves to put into the show, and we put a lot of ourselves into it, a lot of vulnerability. But we've definitely tried to figure out where do we want to be in terms of how we show up right now, in this moment. Because-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, we've nodded to it throughout the last year, around like, fear for both of us, but also for our families. And it's interesting. I feel like I've hit a point where I'm less afraid. I think partly because there's so much that feels scary and terrible. 

And then, the thing that is giving me hope, like, it's the American people who are creating change right now. And it's like people standing up and using their voice. And it's people coming together in community, and connection, and organizing. Like, that's what is pushing, if there is any, like pushing toward better or goodness. Like, it's that. 

And so, I do feel like I've hit a threshold of like, okay, it's… And that might shift, right? But it's no longer fear that's holding me back. 

And my team and I were talking about this yesterday. And I want to, like, try to put my thoughts together in an essay on this, but just the complexity of, yeah, having a large account when all of this is happening. And, like, how to show up. And something I actually, I think about quite a lot. And one of the like, paradoxes I often feel or the tensions, is when everything around us is falling apart, one of the things, especially as autistic people, that can be regulating and soothing, is when we have, like, some anchors of normalcy, right? When we open up our phones or the news, and it's like re-reading the same headline over and over about the terrible things happening, that can be really dysregulating. 

And so, sometimes I'm like, well, I want to offer, like, okay, this is a place you can come to learn about neurodivergence. This will be a predictable, amidst all the unpredictable, will be a predictable presence around what kind of education you're getting. 

But then, there reaches a point, and I think this is what we've struggled with on the podcast, where it's like, but it's so weird to be talking about like autism, or ADHD, or sensory when it feels like the world around us is falling apart. And so, yeah, if your world is making content, and you're not a journalist, but it's just like, how do you show up in this moment?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep, for sure. And I think sometimes some of this stuff feels kind of trivial. Like, how can I go on-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: …about something or talk about something when there's so much more happening in this moment that feels like it's so much more significant, and more important, and has more implication?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, than like RSD. And not that those things stop mattering on a personal day-to-day. But it's just it feels weird to talk about that stuff, you know, when the democracy is under attack. I think just before we started recording the… And that's part of it is, I also I don't want to be, like, just injecting. I know people are already, like, inundated with these headlines, so I don't want to be yet another, like, voice injecting more of it. But yeah, just when it feels like safe, secure elections, and democracy is under threat, how do we write books about autism and ADHD, or like content about it? And then, yeah, it's complex.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, there is a day a couple weeks ago… I'm going to, God, I don't even know what I'm following when I say, when the Autistic Barbie came out. And that was like waves within the autism community and very complex emotions around it. And so, that was one story, right? So, I'm like, do I weigh in on this? 

Then other stuff is going on. Then we have people being shot and killed in the middle of the streets while protesting, and standing up for their communities, and trying to protect each other. And mutual aid requests going on, and stories about whatever else happening in that day, and in that week. And I don't know, I think that sometimes it feels meaningless. 

And I try to think really hard around these times about if this feels meaningless, but all these people have all these opinions about everything that's happening, and I don't mean meaningless, like, it has no meaning, but like, what's the point of having certain conversations about certain topics when other atrocities are happening? I get into this weird mindset where I don't know what to do. And all I know to do is to support my community, to support things that I can control. Like, my mind goes into, “Okay, where can I donate money? Where can I donate resources? Who can I help? How can I amplify?”

Because I think that resistance is interesting, especially in the disability community, about, like, how do I show up? How do I resist? How do I advocate? A lot of people feel like they're not doing enough, or I can't resist in a way that is going to be acceptable for people around me, or I just don't feel like I can do that safely enough in any capacity. And it's such a mind fuck. It's just so overwhelming in so many ways.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, and that can be part of the paralysis, I think, is, I mean, before we started recording, we were talking about decision fatigue and decision paralysis of like, and especially with our all-or-nothing thinking, right? Of like, there's a right way to get involved or a wrong way. And then, there's so many different things happening. And there's so many different ways to respond that…

And I think that's also part of the design, right? I think we've talked about this in the past with the whole like, flood the zone is literally part of the strategy they use of, you know? Like, even today alone, I think there's probably three headlines that could lead to a reasonable impeachment. And it's like, well, if three of these things come out every day, people can maybe attend to one or two. But it's like, you can sneak in a lot of things that way, and it can create that paralysis. And that is part of why, in our content, I'm like, “Okay, how much do we talk about this? Is this contributing to paralysis, or is this helping?” That's one of the things I have to think about.

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

MEGAN NEFF: I am circling back to your idea of community. I think that is the question. And I've felt an energy shift as you and I have shifted in our conversations around, what does it look like to get involved in… I know you're doing a lot in your local community to get involved in supporting the efforts of people who are organizing. Like, there's beautiful things happening there. 

And I think that's so important, is finding the entry point to something where we have something to do with this energy that comes up. Like, I've been talking a lot about the nervous system and the stress cycle. And our bodies create arousal when we're under threat. And often, a lot, in like pop psychology and in psychology, we talk about how do we downregulate that? 

But there's times that we don't want to downregulate it. There's times that arousal is there for a purpose. It mobilizes us to act. And so, I know that's been so huge for me, is figuring out where to channel that so that I don't fall into that paralysis. And so, that I am channeling that energy towards something that makes me feel like I have a little bit of agency amidst this hellscape.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think having a little bit of agency is vital, because otherwise, you know, there can be days where I personally can spend days doom scrolling through social media and listening to reel after reel, or reading story after story, and that becomes really overwhelming, really quickly.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's so jarring on the nervous system. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And, you know, I can get consumed by it. I can hyper-fixate on it. And before I know it, it's like two or three days of, you know, just flooding your nervous system with imagery, and story, and narrative. And all of a sudden, like, I'm dysregulated, and I'm not sleeping, and I'm more irritable. And, you know, all of these things, it's like a domino effect, and trying really hard to figure out different ways to move through the day. 

And I'm not saying, like, don't go out and protest. Don't go out and resist. Don't go do the things you're doing. But like, maybe there are subtle changes that we can make that allow us to stay a little bit more anchored in and more regulated. Like, starting your day a little bit differently, instead of opening the phone and immediately scrolling through stories. 

And like we said, community, and just getting into community, whether it be… And you know, it can be so many different ways that you can participate in your local community, whether you're fundraising, whether you're donating, whether you're supporting a local mutual aid or nonprofit, whether you're making phone calls, or sharing information, or being one of the people organizing, or actually out on the front lines protesting. Like, there are lots of ways. And it really does not have to look identically across the board. And I think sometimes we can get into this almost like shame or guilt mentality of I'm just not doing anything, or I'm not doing enough. And that's certainly not helpful, not only [CROSSTALK 00:14:46]-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: …in general.

MEGAN NEFF: And like, the way neurodivergent people might get involved, like most things will likely look different, you know? It might not be the front lines protest, but you know, there's ways of using our creativity or our spreadsheet skills for those who are systematizers. Like, it might look different. It might look quieter. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

I'm glad you're naming that, because I think when we live through experiences like this, it can bring on shame. And shame would be another emotion that would demobilize us and get us stuck. And so, if we fall into that shame of, like, “Well, I'm not doing enough.” Or, “I'm not doing it how, maybe even we want to be able to do things.” Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And with that, you know, like, I can get into that mentality of, “I'm not doing enough.” Right? And that can be brought on by that three days of doom scrolling. And then, I start to get into this storyline of, like, “Okay, platform and privilege, you need to be doing more.” And then, I will tell myself, like, “You're doing nothing at all.” And if I'm more regulated, I can look at it from the perspective of, here are all the ways that you are helping the causes that you care about. 

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And I can come at it with a very different approach, opposed to that, like black and white, all or nothing, catastrophic thinking. And I just know that I can have more of an impact in how I want to show up and support if I'm doing it from a place where it feels really intentional, and value-centered, and anchored into the things that matter to me. Because we can't support all the causes that are going on at all the times. There's too many to count, not just here, but everywhere. And it's really important to try really hard to figure out what feels important to you. And I think that's another piece of this as well.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: I also, like, have been paying attention more and more to just people who are a part of more marginalized groups, who have more marginalized identities, and how they resist, and how they show up. And we've talked about this on here, but I think white people being oppressed is relatively new for us. And-

MEGAN NEFF: We don't do it well. We don't do it well.

PATRICK CASALE: We do not.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I notice a lot of my friends and family members, especially who are black friends and family members, for them, a lot of times, resistance can be joy. Resistance can be-

MEGAN NEFF: Pleasure. Like, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Pleasure. 

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, it was a year ago I started reading Adrienne Maree Brown's work, who's become just like an anchoring kind of voice for me this year. And I think they talk about it. I think the roots are in the black movement around the idea of pleasure as resistance. 

And I love that idea. And this is also when we've talked about, I struggle in knowing how to show up. I feel like I've broken record, but I'm always like I want… Because we've recorded some political podcasts that we haven't chosen to release. And the reason I didn't feel comfortable releasing was I was like, I feel like I'm asking listeners to hold my emotion. Like, it's not metabolized enough. 

And so, the thing that I think black and brown communities really model in their organizing is, at the heart of it, they're so good at staying connected to their humanity. And they move from that energy. 

And these are broad, sweeping statements, but I think it's a little bit easier when white people, when we experience oppression, I think we often lead in our anger, in response. And not that our anger isn't justified or valid. It absolutely is. And there is a difference when it's a movement, if are we leading with our humanity and inviting others to, like, reconnect with their humanity. Like, basically creating an image of hope, of like, look at how beautiful, like, community can be. And it can be when we anchor into this versus leading with anger and spreading anger. 

I've been re-listening to some dark comedy, because that's one ways I cope. And I re-listen to it. I don't know that this would be dark comedy, but Hannah Gadsby's Nanette, which is just so well done. And Nanette is like, it breaks the model of what comedy is. It's really also about advocacy. 

And throughout, they talk about how laughter is contagious, which I think is part of like pleasure. But they also talk about how anger is contagious. And they say it so well. They talk about how, like, their anger is valid. But they're like, “I don't want to spread anger. I don't want you to all leave here angry.” And they talk about the power of story, that story is the thing that can like, mobilize people, you know, toward action. So, story, humanity, pleasure, laughter, yeah, these are the things that are inspiring me right now.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very good stuff, because I think that stuff is the stuff that gives you some semblance of like light at the end of the tunnel. It's really easy to go into hopelessness, demoralization. It's kind of the goal, honestly, is that people become so hopeless, that they feel so defeated, that there is no other outcome than to just stop and to cease resisting in any sort of fashion or form. 

And one thing that makes, you know, even just watching some of the protests that are happening across the country, the thing that feels beautiful to me is the unification of people from all different walks of life showing up and supporting one another. And I think that's really wonderful to see. 

And I see that happen after disaster, you know? Like, I saw that happen here after Hurricane Helene. Like, community came together after catastrophe. It was a hellscape. It was horrifying. And it didn't matter who you were. You were just supporting each other, because that humanness kicks in. And I wish we saw more of that, but I don't think we see none of that. And I think that's really important to acknowledge, of like, I wish that we saw more unification. And I also acknowledge that we are not seeing zero unification.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a thought the other week. It was kind of a sad thought, but it's also, I don't know, this is maybe the silver of hope I'm holding on to that like it's so unfortunate that it often takes, like, the worst of humanity coming out to bring out the best of humanity.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: And I feel like that's so much of what we're seeing now is. And it is amazing when we do see that, when we do see how it brings out the best of humanity. Like, yeah, I found myself choking up when I'm reading about, or, like, watching about some of the things happening in Minneapolis with the way people are caring for neighbors. Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It's unbelievably powerful the messages that are sent when people are standing up for each other, and protecting each other, and doing whatever they can to support one another, in times where it might feel like there are no outcomes that feel positive or favorable. And I like seeing all the people, like, singing, dancing, playing music in the streets, like supporting local businesses, like just doing everything you can not to let this destroy you or tear you down. 

And I think that is just such a beautiful representation of what this country can be at times, where there truly can be unification through culture, and race, and identity. And I think that is the stuff that makes all of this worth continuing to fight for.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, in a like weird way. I don't know if it's like, I've been overton windowed, which is when, like, you get so exposed to the bad that something that was less bad all of a sudden looks really good. I have to be cautious, because ever since my like 20s, I've been kind of overly negative of America, and I've been very outspoken about it, of like, all these other countries do all these things better. 

But I found myself, like, appreciative of aspects of America. It's hard to explain. Maybe it's just I'm like, you know, the fact we used to have checks and balances seems pretty cool, things like that, or even like, I think, what is it? I'm finding myself moved by like members of military who are actively protesting and saying, “No, this is not the American way. I will not do this.” Or, yeah, just…

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think we'll see more and more acts of defiance as things potentially intensify. And we're just going to have to rely on each other. And I think that, for me, is the, like, message that continues to be pretty pervasive. 

And I think it also means, like, I'm just thinking of all the ways you can do this, like donating to charities. Like, I donate to ACLU, and Democracy Forward, and SEEMA, and all of the immigrant’s defense council organizations that I can. Like, there are so many ways to feel like you're are doing something. 

And I also think it starts with, like, we talk about this all the time, but curating your content. Like…

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, go ahead.

PATRICK CASALE: There are content on both sides of things, on both extremes that make a lot of money, creating content, creating controversy, stirring up emotion. [CROSSTALK 00:26:08]-

MEGAN NEFF: And that's what the algorithm rewards, is like things that stir up emotion.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, I always want to be cautious when I say this, because social media can be so good for so many things. I think because the algorithm rewards things that hijack our nervous system, especially during moments like this. Like, I just don't open social media often at all. So, I went on for the first time in a long time because I was wanting to. Because here's what social media is really good at, for me to find, like, where are the mutual aid places, I needed to do that on social media. That's one thing that's social media is really good at, is like the quick collective action. 

So, I was on it, because I was wanting to see what are some of the mutual aid projects happening? And I felt almost like vertigo so quickly just by scrolling. And I was like, “Well, this is so overwhelming.” I think especially, you know, I'm more autistic forward. It’s like the context shifting and the visual shifting, but then, it's not just that like every 30 seconds is a new visual, and context, and voice my system is adapting to, but it's also typically an attention-grabbing headline, because that's what's in the algorithm. And I also might encounter the same headline like 10 different times, so it's just constant injection into the nervous system. 

So, I think for getting news during hard times, like I know, for me, finding long form, that works better for my system. And then, Brett, from Neurodivergent Insights, they shared this idea with me that I really liked is… And I think they heard it’s somewhere of like, finding two to three sources that that's more regulating. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, yeah, that's what I actually intuitively do.” Like, it's Heather Cox Richard.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, Heather Cox Richardson. 

MEGAN NEFF: Heather Cox Richardson and like Pod Save America. Those are kind of my two go-to. And part of it is I’m not hearing the same headline over and over that way. But it's also like, I know their voices, I know the context, and so my system's not needing to adapt as much. 

So, I think if people are really kind of struggling with there's too much arousal in their bodies and they're feeling immobilized, that might be something to play with, of, because I do, it's really hard for our system to take in this kind of content with that much change over and over and over.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. Yep, I like both of those accounts as well. And then, Amanda's Mild Takes is another one. And the way she lays out information in such a calm way, and just understands the moment so well, is super important for me. 

And listen, social media, for those of you listening, I am not knocking it, has a lot of benefits, like Megan Anna said. And some of the benefit right now, given the moment and the time that we are in, is capturing stuff that is happening in real time, and having people be able to access it, and share that information if our media is not going to do that job. And if there is going to be suppression of information. So, that is absolutely wonderful, because without that, I mean, you would not know any of this stuff was going on if you weren't right there, in the middle of it.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And that is unbelievably important right now. But I also think, like, what will happen, right, is, like, you'll like a post, you'll share a post, maybe you'll hit that new Instagram thing that shares the stories with people you know, and then all of a sudden, your whole algorithm is full of it.

MEGAN NEFF: Is that, yeah, yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: So, I've started to reclaim my algorithm by doing that on all the animal videos I see, all the Lord of the Rings videos I see. Like, I'm just trying to, like, make my social media accounts and algorithms feel at least a little bit more regulating. Because, admittedly, as we've talked about, I spend a lot more time on there than you do. And that's not in a good way. But like, the only way I can do that is to create a little bit more of, like, calm, and ease, and just joy too. Like, I watch my wife on social media. She just scrolls through things and is laughing constantly. And I'm like, “How is this happening? I don’t understand.”

MEGAN NEFF: Because her algorithm is probably so different. 

PATRICK CASALE: I know, I know. It's like it’s amazing.

MEGAN NEFF: Luke and I did that once, where we were like, “Let's just swap algorithms for a moment.” And like, his is like European football. So, soccer and like vegan cooking. And it's like, so peaceful. And he's scrolling through mine. He's like, “Wow, that's really [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:21].” Yeah.

Well, and like, we talk about intentionality a lot. Maybe it's zooming out to be like, what is the purpose or the function of social media? So, if the function is like, I use it to get like views of what's happening on the ground, then I think that's a great algorithm for that purpose, especially if they know this is why I use it. I think what gets complex is we use social media for so many different things. 

And I think one of the myths I'd love to bust is this idea that scrolling is relaxing. People are like, “You know, I'm going to relax for a little bit.” There's nothing relaxing about scrolling unless you’re like your spouse or my spouse, where their algorithms are, like, beautifully curated to be that. 

So, I think it's zooming back to be like, if social media is something we want to be relaxing, a place we escape the world, helping tailor our algorithm to be that. If it's the place we go to, to stay like, up-to-date. Because there's also, like, a lot of independent journalists now who curate those videos for us. So, like Midas Touch Network, that's another one I will watch when my system can tolerate a little bit more visceral, because they will, like, curate the clips. So, if that's not what we want to use social media for, there's other places we can access that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yep. It is a moment that's for sure. 

MEGAN NEFF: It’s that moment, yep.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's was just January forever. I felt like we were in January forever.

MEGAN NEFF: It was a long, long month. I mean, okay, so we actually did record a January, New Year's episode. And it was going to release this Friday. And we were like, “It feels so long ago, and it feels so out of touch.” Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, just, you know, that's something that we both wrestle with on here sometimes, is just trying to meet the moment, and also, do so in a way where it's like, “I'm already running on fumes and low capacity. How do we figure out a time to record between both of our schedules and lives?” And I think that's challenging, while also trying to preserve your peace and peace of mind, you know? 

And then, the flip side, of course, is like, once we get into a rhythm and I'm like, “Oh, I feel really connected to Megan Anna. Then I start to feel like, “Ooh, this is really energizing. I should do this more.”

MEGAN NEFF: I know. Like, even I'm thinking about, like, from when we started recording to now, I'm like, “Oh, I've got more energy because I'm in connection.” Connection is what we as humans need right now. 

But, yeah, it probably is a good time to kind of fill listeners in on, like we're not completely sure what the next six months will look like with the podcast, but we've talked about restructuring it to make it more sustainable, because the releasing weekly, I've kind of been saying for a few years that that felt unsustainable, but I think with this year that just has felt harder and harder.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Harder and harder for a lot of reasons, and energy capacity, other projects, just life getting in the way. And yeah, it's felt more heavy trying to figure out ways to continue it in a way, even when we went to batching at first, that felt really good. And the first run, like the divergent or the [CROSSTALK 00:35:10]-

MEGAN NEFF: The burnout city. That was like, I think my favorite season we've done, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And somehow, we just synced up perfectly for that. I don't know. And I think that's what you always try to recreate, you know? Is like, how do we recreate that moment? That energy level? That shared-

MEGAN NEFF: Like, in our early days, like before it got big, because neither of us were expecting it to get big. So, it was, like, no stress. There's very little stress on, like, all of the kind of production around it or sponsors. And it's like, I kind of want to go back to those days, but also, maybe with like, we record when we have capacity, and we release when we have a new episode to release, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I think that goes back to what we’ve said a lot during this hour of like intentionality. So, not just releasing because we have to, because we have people who are paying us to release episodes, or not just releasing because we feel the pressure to do so, but just releasing episodes that feel good to us and feel congruent with both of ourselves, and our businesses, and our platforms, and just what we want to put out into the world, I think. It's a privilege to be able to get to be picking and choosing in terms of how we want this to go.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And I'm thinking, now that we're doing this, I'm like, we should have made that an intro in case people didn't make it all the way through. But, you know, that's okay. We can clip it.

MEGAN NEFF: We can clip it. Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. We'll figure it.

MEGAN NEFF: Yes. Or people will figure it out. People will see that they're not dropping, yeah, yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:37:07].

MEGAN NEFF: And one thing we have talked about is, especially once both our manuscripts are in, like, doing like an actual proper season. Like, a 10-episode season, and releasing that, which would probably be in the fall. And like shifting more toward, like actual seasons where there's a break and then there's more episodes. I think we've both said like, we'd love to be more intentional with the podcast, but then I think, with how many episodes we've been doing, and with how busy we are, it's been hard to do that. So, I think that's kind of like a guarantee that we'll be back with a slightly different structure, with a like, smaller season at some point this year. And in the meantime, we've talked about, if we want to hop on, and talk, and record, and upload it, we will.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It takes a lot of the pressure off of playing like calendar Jenga as well, and trying to figure out time zones, and all the things that we're always navigating behind the scenes. Because, I'd say, three and a half years in, we never really found the right like flow in terms of, how do we make this seamless? 

MEGAN NEFF: We didn’t.

PATRICK CASALE: I just don't know a way, unless we're in person.

MEGAN NEFF: That and also, I've thought about this a lot. So, like, one of the criteria of autism is difficult with reciprocity, and like that actually is a thing. And I think one of the challenges we've had is we both run businesses, and then we've come together to create Divergent Conversations. And it's like, your team does half, my team does half, but no one clearly owns it. 

And I think for both of us, like I've said, I feel like, as we were talking about this, I was like, I feel like this will probably always feel like a side hustle unless I, like, found a way to integrate it into Neurodivergent Insights workflows. 

And I imagine in some way, you maybe feel similar, of like it's weird to half own something, and that's part of the autistic experiences for a lot of us. It's like, if I don't fully own it, it's hard to know which pieces to move, it's hard to coordinate that with someone else. And I think it's weird. I mean, it actually it makes sense to autistic people struggling with the reciprocity. Like, it would make sense that this, like, third little thing we've made that doesn't fit in either of our businesses has just kind of been hard to fully find a flow with.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, 100%. And I think that's just always been the X factor of, like, the challenge of it, which I appreciate for us, like, for the last three plus years, navigating it in a very wonky way. Because, you know, I've been in just unbelievably grateful for everything this podcast has offered in terms of connection and community. And how much support has been offered to so many different people. Like, I'll never lose sight of that. And I think, you know, that's always what helped us keep going when we had to navigate all of these complex, behind-the-scenes, like logistics of two humans who own businesses, who have different time zones, different scheduling needs, different [CROSSTALK 00:40:46]-

MEGAN NEFF: Different circadian rhythms. Like, by the time I wake up, is when your body is like shutting down.

PATRICK CASALE: I know. I can already feel it right now.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And now my body's finally like, “Oh yeah, we can be awake now. I'm okay with this. It’s 11:20.” 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I think we've thrown around the idea of potentially trying to find a recording studio and do our seasons, maybe potentially in person together, and mess around with that idea. So, we're kind of trying to figure out what comes next. But we expect to have another season out in the fall. We just don't know when. And we'll, obviously, keep people updated when we have that information. 

And, yeah, like you said, if the moment is right, then we can both hop on and record about something that feels good, and finish these manuscripts that, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, do you want to do the final awkward goodbye for now?

MEGAN NEFF: I think I just did it. 

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:41:56].

MEGAN NEFF: I think I just did it. I was like, I think that awkward pause was [CROSSTALK 00:42:01]-

PATRICK CASALE: I don’t think.

MEGAN NEFF: No, I think it was hitting me of like, this like feels more like a goodbye than I was thinking it would feel like. So, like, I think I was just noticing that. I wasn't even at the point in processing. But it's not a goodbye. But I guess it is a goodbye of the way we've done it the last three and a half years, as we shift to something that will hopefully feel more sustainable.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm happy to do the awkward goodbye and-

PATRICK CASALE: Okay. I think it’s been done. 

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I guess, so we always do our like, subscribe, blah, blah, blah. If you do want to, oh my gosh, my voice. See you. We're definitely at our time limit. If you do want to subscribe, like, when we come back that way, you'll see the show. Otherwise, it'd be easy to miss. So, if you subscribe, when we're back in the fall, we'll be in your algorithm. So, wherever you find podcasts, that would be a good time to do that if you're not yet.

PATRICK CASALE: Well done. Well done. Yeah. So, we will see you in a couple of months. Be safe. Do what you need to do to get through. I think that's important right now. And don't do it alone. Community and connection are going to be absolutely crucial. So, all right.