Episode 135 (Season 4): Neurodivergent Identity Arc for Later-in-Life Discovery

Show Notes

The journey to understanding and integrating a later-in-life neurodivergent identity is often filled with relief, confusion, pride, growth, and other complex emotions—all woven together in a unique, personal arc.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the “neurodivergent identity arc”—a model that explores how people move from the state of not knowing they are neurodivergent to full integration into their identity. Drawing on Dr. Neff’s recent article, their own lived experiences, and patterns observed within neurodivergent communities, Patrick and Megan Anna unpack each stage’s challenges, risks, and transformative moments.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Gain a nuanced understanding of the four phases many neurodivergent adults cycle through—from pre-encounter to integration. Hear how these arcs differ based on privilege, intersectionality, and support needs.
2. Listen to deeply honest, relatable storytelling as both hosts openly share their own journeys with masking, diagnosis, community pride, and the tricky process of reconciling privilege with disability. Their vulnerability makes the conversation both illuminating and affirming.
3. Discover practical insights on moving through identity formation at your own pace—including common pitfalls and growth points—and why showing yourself compassion for “wherever you are” matters more than fitting into a perfect idea of thriving.

Whether you’re newly discovering your neurodivergent identity, feeling pride in community, or working toward greater self-acceptance, this episode offers an empathetic roadmap—and a reminder that your process is valid. Get insights about living, learning, and integrating neurodivergent identity in a complex world.

Check out Dr. Neff’s Article on Neurodivergent Identity Arcs: neurodivergentinsights.substack.com/p/neurodivergent-identity-arcs

 

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

All right, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we have our finality, like our final episode to the series that we've been doing. We're going to be talking about the neurodivergent identity arc. Megan Anna has created an article that we're going to be referencing, and linking in the show notes, and kind of unpacking our own experiences.

If you don't know, we've been batch recording for two weeks. We've done like 17 episodes together. So, we are, I think [CROSSTALK 00:02:04]-

MEGAN NEFF: We still like each other.

PATRICK CASALE: We still like each other. But you said crawling to the finish line, and that's real, that's real.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. We both have a bit of brain fog. And as we've reflected on like, it's felt like a heavier series to record. Like, I think, I know for me, I feel like I've bumped into things that I'm still in process of processing. So, there's also just been a heaviness. And the world feels really heavy right now. So, yeah, crawling to the finish line.

PATRICK CASALE: It really does feel that way. And you know, I think we got a lot of feedback from you all about our Burnout City series, about how much people really enjoyed it. And I think what you enjoyed was our, like, metaphors, and our examples, and our visualizations, and our creativity, and our jokes, and our laughter. And this series has felt very much on the opposite end of the spectrum, but full of a lot of nuance and complexity. I think that's what creates some of the heaviness sometimes.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah. Well, let's talk about identity. Actually, identity is one of my favorite topics to talk on. So, yeah, first of all, I guess maybe it's helpful to zoom out a little bit. 

So, identity models, kind of identity development, or identity integration, this is not unique to us at all. In the 1970s someone named Cass put forward, it was called homosexual identity formation, because that was the language being used right now or back then, that was the language being used. So, we've got queer identity models. We've got black identity models. There's different models out there. Cass is the person who, in the 90s, put forward a black identity model. But it's basically the idea, especially when you live with a marginalized identity, that experience of how you integrate that identity throughout the lifespan.

And I've had conversations with several people in the field of neurodivergence, of like, “Oh my goodness, we need a model for neurodivergence.” And in my head, I was like, "Well, we'd have to do research first, and blah, blah, blah." And then, I was like, "I just kind of want to map this out." 

So, these are just my initial thoughts from patterns I've seen, from my own experience, from what I've noticed as being in community with a lot of newly identified folks. But this is not like some gold stamp model. I'm sure at some point we'll have some academic version of something, but these are my noticings.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, yeah, that sounds pretty good to me, and that makes a lot of sense. So, I guess if you want to walk us through where to start and we'll unpack whatever comes up.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I was thinking we could talk about our own experiences. The other thing I'll say about this model, specifically, is I was thinking about folks like us, who tend to come to know this later in life and also tend to have lower traditional support needs. 

And I also think this model applies more so to white folks, partly, because a lot of people who have entered the neurodivergent space, especially if you don't have another marginalized identity, folks who enter the space and they've already done some identity work, they perhaps come more naturally to this process. But if this is your first marginalized identity you've ever integrated, this might be a process that unfolds more often.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure. That makes a lot of sense.

MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so the first phase that I outlined is this idea of pre-encounter. So, that's assimilation, masking shame, and again, a lot of the other identity models also have some version of pre-encounter.

So, some of the common experiences here would be when we don't yet know that we're neurodivergent, and so there's a lot of internalized ableism that's running the show. There can be a strong drive to conform and to mask. Our support needs tend to be pretty heavily minimized or misinterpreted by other people, so that could show up as things like overachieving or people pleasing, or burnout cycles, or denying our struggles would be another common experience, and then a lot of shame around our perceived failings.

So, I would say the emotional tone of this part of the arc there tends to be a lot of confusion, loneliness, self-doubt, shame, isolation. And I would say some of the risks of this stage are things like chronic stress, delayed diagnosis, identity confusion, because we don't know what's happening, co-occurring mental health conditions, exhaustion, things like that. Pre-encounter, assimilation, masking shame, does that sound familiar to you?

PATRICK CASALE: I would say, you know, you got it to a T. And I also see that you have perfectionism burnout on here as a risk and identity confusion, delay… Yeah. I mean, this is my life in a nutshell. So, thank you for wrapping that up in a nice little bow.

MEGAN NEFF: It's a lovely place to live.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah? I mean, people pleasing to a T, you know, prior to discovery for me, masking exhaustion, although I didn't know that's what it was, perfectionism burnout, that's actually what led me to diagnosis. I remember the exact day and time where I was just like so much in that space of workaholism, perfectionism burnout, absolutely fucking exhausted and depleted physically and mentally from a big event that had just happened, laying on my bed thinking like, "I'm not doing enough. I need to be doing more." 

And then, literally, like, verbalizing out loud, of like, “But you just had this, like, huge soccer tournament weekend. You're physically exhausted, you're mentally exhausted, you're emotionally depleted. You don't need to do anything.” And I was like, “I think I need to get back into therapy.” And that was kind of my-

MEGAN NEFF: So, that was the moment, like, that was the moment that got you back into therapy, which is, like, the pathway toward discovery?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I was just in this burnout space, and I just didn't know why I was struggling so much. And I was really grappling with, like, coming to terms with capacity. And I just kept saying to myself, like, "You should be able to do more. Like, you're so used to doing more. Like, why is it not feeling possible? Or why is it feeling so exhausting?" So, absolutely.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, well, I was just thinking, so you've had that experience, and then you went to therapy. I would say I had that experience in my early 30s. And I try to solve it through the medical route of, and I was going to natural pass, I was going to my primary care doctor. I wasn't getting answers, but it was the same question, why am I so exhausted? Why can't I do more? Why does everything feel like such a heavy lift?

And I bet that could be a comment to either try to get our answers through the medical system or through the mental health system.

PATRICK CASALE: And to be explicitly clear, like, when I decided, like, I need to find a therapist, it was certainly not to unpack autism. It was like, yeah-

MEGAN NEFF: Right. You're like, what's wrong with me?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I just kept thinking, like, "Why do I never feel like anything's good enough? Why do I feel like I'm so connected to like my productivity? Why am I such a workaholic? How come I never feel proud of myself?"

MEGAN NEFF: I should add that to this stage of the what's wrong with me era. Like, that would be part of pre-encounter, because I'm yet to meet a late identified person who wasn't asking some version of that question, what is wrong with me?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that was the big pervasive theme, what is wrong with me? I felt really broken. I felt really defective in those moments. And yeah, I just remember that was the reason I decided to pursue finding another therapist at the time. And then, simultaneously had my friend, like at lunch be like, "You should go get tested for autism." And that kind of overlapped and interwove with each other.

MEGAN NEFF: And this is also the stage, I would say, where we can experience a lot of invalidation and confusion through mental health providers and medical providers, which then adds to the confusion of this stage, because we're like seeking answers, what's wrong with me? And the answers we get rarely feel like they're answering that question.

And so, I think it’s also a stage where we can develop a lot of mistrust of traditional systems, but especially medical and mental health systems.

PATRICK CASALE: This stage, for me, when we did our Not Your Typical Wellness series, what do we call that again? From, like, Burnt Out and Worthy, something like that, I don't remember. I mess it up every time, doesn't matter. But that was a lot of what was happening, right? Where it was like medical or mental health providers, like, "Oh, have you tried maybe taking a day off of work? Or, like, maybe you should try some mindfulness on the porch? Or, like, try a yoga class. Or, like, relaxation techniques." And I was like, "No, that that is not what is happening here."

MEGAN NEFF: And that deepens the shame, because it's like, we're asking what's wrong with me? We're getting advice. It's not solving it. So then, it's like, well what's… Or, I also think another reaction, like, we're both more internalizers, to be like, what's wrong with me?

I think another reaction could be anger here, of like, where, instead of the anger getting turned inward, it actually gets turned outward toward, like, systems. And so, that could be another expression of the pre-encounter phase is like, what's wrong with people, not what's wrong with me, but like, what's wrong with the world.

And I don't think we talk about that a lot, because that's not necessarily our experience, but that, I think, could be another way this could certainly show up, would be bitterness, like, maybe the self-esteem is a little preserved, but bitterness toward the world is really elevated. And so, a lot of distrust toward the world.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, well said. And again, yeah, because it's not typically our experiences, we're much more likely to go in words of like, there's clearly something off here for me, it's me, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's a pretty intense stage, which is why, I think, so many of us feel so much relief when we finally do get to identification, because, like, there's all that context, which is why it confuses people when they're like, how are you excited that you're autistic? Like, that doesn't make sense, because they're not understanding that under that tip of the iceberg has been years often of confusion, and struggle, and not having a name for it.

PATRICK CASALE: And just to piggyback on that, years of it. But oftentimes, this is like, I mean, for me, rumination of like I was thinking about this all day, every day. And it consumed me. Like, it was often times what I was thinking about is like, what the fuck is wrong with me, and why is life so hard all the time?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, very similar to me. And then, also, always trying to reconfigure my life to make it work. And oh my gosh, I tried so many different, like, health diets. Like, I've literally, like, listed out, and I've been on it, like, vegan for years, keto, bulletproof, because for me, so much of it was about the fatigue. But beyond that, there was also the social aspect, too, of like, trying to build a life that worked, but not knowing why it wasn't working, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, I just feel like it's coming up short constantly. Like, and you're rearranging your life, and that can really have an impact on partners and friends when they're like, “hat? You're making these massive, like, life-altering changes and decisions, and you're doing it constantly.” 

And you're just like, "I'm just trying to feel okay. Like, I'm just trying to figure out how to make things a little bit easier for myself." And you're so desperate in that way, you know? Like, you're just so desperately hoping that something is going to click.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think part of why the seasons felt so heavy for me, there's a phrase that popped in my head after we recorded a few days ago, of like, it's hard living a life that you don't want to be a part of. Like, realizing that so much of what I've been doing the last handful of years is like desperately trying to cobble together a life that I want to exist in. 

And I think that is what often gets missed in this pre-encounter stage, is that it can be so common for us to be having an existence that we are confused by and that we don't necessarily want to be a part of. And so, then we're desperately trying to like, well, let's move or let's do a career shift. Because we're looking for answers for this deep angst and discomfort that is so hard to articulate. And when we do articulate it, it's often like, "Oh, well, everyone struggles." And blah, blah, blah. And it's like, not capturing the experience quite.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Okay, so that's pre-encounter. I imagine there's a lot of mental health conditions that take root in that era. And it can also look like mental health conditions, understandably, but it might not be. But also, there would be organic mental health conditions in there as well.

And then, there's the encounter phage, oh my gosh, words, really crawling to the finish line.

PATRICK CASALE: Friday.

MEGAN NEFF: Then there is the encounter phase, which, like disruption and recognition, and that's where something disrupts the existing narrative or question. Maybe it is something we've seen on social media, maybe it's a book we've read, maybe it's getting a diagnosis we weren't expecting, or maybe it's hearing like a friend's story. And then, through that comes the experience of recognition, of like, I recognize myself in this identity.

And so, that, again, given everything we just described, can bring an understandable huge amount of relief for a lot of us, but also, quite a bit of disorientation, which I think we unpacked pretty well when we talked about, like, the messy wardrobe and everything we're unpacking.

So, I think some of the common experiences here would be this significant shift and beginning to connect the dots. Again, this would be that wardrobe stage where it's all of a sudden, you have this new lens to revisit the past. And so, there can be a lot of disruption that happens in that, which, again, can be relief, but also disorienting. So, this can be a common time where people begin to consume a lot of neurodivergent content. Maybe it becomes a special interest. Maybe they start listening to our podcast. And they start recontextualizing their life through this new lens. They start addressing or questioning internalized ableisms. Maybe they seek out a diagnosis during this phase. Maybe they don't.

So, a lot of the strengths of this phase is things like our self-awareness increases because we finally have the right language for it. So, there can be a lot of hope and relief in the sense that I can actually now build a life that I want to be a part of because I have the language and I know my needs.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, yep.

MEGAN NEFF: I would say some of the risks of this phase are things like a lot of overwhelm because it's so much to process, and because it can be destabilizing in our relationships, or in our careers, or in our sense of self. And I think we can also lean into kind of overly idealized views of a neurodivergent identity in this process, because it is so new and exciting.

So, that's kind of how I am envisioning this liminal space of encounter. Does that resonate? Are there things you'd add to that?

PATRICK CASALE: I'm just reading what you wrote, and I see that this is a luminal, tender space. The old identity no longer fits, but the new one isn't fully formed. They are between worlds. It's really well said. And I agree 100%. 

This is often, like we talk about like grief relief, right? The paradox that comes with that. I think that's a lot of this stage is the grief, like you're saying, or the relief that you're saying. And sometimes it's grief of unpacking your entire existence, and just being like, laying it all bare, soul exposing, re-shifting, complete perspective.

I said this in my TED Talk, but I said, like, oftentimes an autism diagnosis, it feels a lot like it gets worse before it gets better, type of thing, because it is that epiphany aha moment. But then you are met with like, the immediacy of like, the burnout, the sensory overwhelm, all of the things that come with it. And you're just like, "Holy hell. I thought this acknowledgement and final, like, understanding that I've been seeking for my entire life was going to alleviate all of the things that I've been struggling with.” But in reality, it just gives us language and understanding about all of the things.

MEGAN NEFF: So, I'm glad you said that, because I kind of want to add that too. I think that's one of the risks of this phase, is starting to believe this is going to solve everything that's hard about my life. And I definitely fell into that of like, "Oh, no. I know what autistic burnout is. I know what these things are." Yeah, no, my mental health conditions did not go away. Like, I have more capacity to hold them. I work with them a bit better, but I still struggle with several mental health conditions that I have to manage, and that I live with, and I hold, and those don't magically go away.

PATRICK CASALE: No, no. And I think that this is one thing that people seem to get confused about sometimes, of like, I'm unmasked, I'm learning how to be myself. How come things have become so much harder in a lot of ways?

And for me, I can certainly relate to that. I think, post-discovery phase, the unmasking process has led to feeling like significantly more overwhelmed and impacted by things in my day-to-day. And we're no longer masking and using those accommodations that we may be subconsciously built into our lives, or we're pushing ourselves way beyond our capacity. I mean, everything starts to feel like a domino effect.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. This is something I often hear from people. And people often ask like, why is this? Where people's sensory sensitivities, they'll talk about how it becomes worse after like discovery.

And so, I've noticed that as a really common trend with speaking about things getting harder, is it like… And I think it kind of makes sense to me, of for one, we might be reconnecting from our bodies, and if we had a really disconnected relationship to it, we're going to feel things more. But I also think, and this took me a while to realize, is I started having stressful thoughts about sensory overwhelm, and that I think was making it more stressful, right?

So, if I go into a grocery store and now I have language of I'm dissociating, I'm sensory overloaded, those stressful thoughts are now amping up my nervous system as well. So, now I'm also flooded with that cortisol. I'm going to have a more intense experience of that, those sensory experiences, versus before it was like, "Oh, yeah, I feel like I'm in a dream. This thing that happens to me is happening." 

And so, there was actually something about sensory overload, or then I'd be bracing, because I'm like, I know I'm going to get sensory overloaded, the lights and the smells. And all of that mental stuff I was doing was actually making the sensory overwhelm so much more intense.

So, it was about reconnecting with my body, but it was also about how, like, bracing I was, which activates the fight/flight, and the narratives I was sharing about that experience to my body, which signals threat response. So, I'm going to be experiencing it more intensely.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. It's almost like, you're like, hyper vigilant and preparing and thinking about it at all times. And it takes up that extra amount of cognitive energy. And then, you're also like, on defense mode all the time of like, how do I build in all of the supports under the sun, acknowledging that I now understand that I am so impacted in all of these ways, it's a lot. But you said it perfectly. And as I was dropping my fidget toy on the ground and looking for it. So, apologies.

MEGAN NEFF: Mics that don't work, fidgets dropping, thoughts dropping.

PATRICK CASALE: There are magnets too, so I got caught to like, doesn't matter anyway. But yes, you said that perfectly. And I think that's something that a lot of people kind of struggle with, because I think, again… And I think myself as well, just thought this was going to be the answer. Like, I was going to get this diagnosis. Life was going to get easy breezy, life was going to get manageable.

MEGAN NEFF: I think we're always looking for the answer. And I don't know why, but I associate this to my ADHD part of like, always looking for the fix, the easy fix. Like, the vitamin that is going to fix me, or the diet, or the diagnosis. Like, it is so tempting to look for the one thing that is going to, you know, magically cure my life and make it a more comfortable existence.

PATRICK CASALE: If any of you find that answer, please let us know. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

MEGAN NEFF: That will become our sponsor for the podcast forever if anyone [CROSSTALK 00:26:17]-

PATRICK CASALE: We will pay whoever that is to sponsor us, we will do that.

MEGAN NEFF: My gosh. So, yeah, that is the encounter stage. Let's see, I feel like I kind of went through that stage pretty quickly, in the sense that, I mean, I went through aspects of it longer, but just because it was such an intense process.

And then, I think the next stage that often comes for many of us, again, this is the one that I think happens more so for those of us who have more privileged identities, or I would say we fall into the risks of this stage a little bit more. So, that's the immersion stage, which has to do with reclaiming and pride. I feel like I went from encounter to immersion quite quickly.

So, this is where that new narrative is starting to take hold, and we're getting a lot of validation from the community, from being able to connect with other neurodivergent folks, realize we're not alone in that. So, this is typically what we see here is a lot of deep engagement with neurodivergent identity. And that could look like pride for many of us. Maybe we're telling everyone we're autistic or ADHD, maybe not, but some connection to the community that tends to give us pride.

Some of the behaviors we might see here would be things like unmasking, maybe joining neurodivergent communities, or doing advocacy work. And it's also common here is where we start seeing more like rejection of neurotypical norms.

And I mean, this can be a really powerful phase in the sense that it can be really empowering, which there's a lot of reclaiming that happens through that. There can be a lot of liberation from shame. We can have a sense of belonging, which is huge for us, and just more kind of clarity.

But there are some risks to this stage. And this would be things like kind of falling into like us versus them thinking, or reverse othering, where we're kind of talking, you know, the big bad neurotypicals is how I talk about it.

And I see a lot of this energy in the community, which is, for me, I'm very sensitive to this kind of energy, and so like I can only take in so much of that content. So, it's like, we are good. Neurotypicals are bad. This is also where kind of that Aspie supremacy can creep in, of like, if autistic people just ran the world, it would be so much better. There can also be some rigidity around engaging in nuance around some of these conversations, around neurodiversity, or we might fall into the superpower rhetoric of like idealizing ADHD or idealizing autism. And a person wouldn't necessarily fall into all these risks. These are just some of them.

Another one might be to have kind of to fall into a victim mindset that makes us feel really helpless, of like my life is hard because the world's not built for me. And this sense of like there's nothing I can really do about it until the world changes, kind of because it's putting a lot on the systems.

And then, I think in this early phase, there can be what I'm calling support needs invisibility where I think, because, again, for so many of us, we're finally getting language for our needs. And there's an understandable desire to kind of front and center that legitimacy, that in doing so, it can be really easy to invalidate those in our community with higher support needs, and to say things, again, any of that, like Aspie supremacy stuff, the way that comes off, is often not thinking in a nuanced way about those in our community with higher support needs. So, that is another one of those risks, is not thinking enough about intersectionality, not thinking enough about support needs in some of the statements that we're making.

So, I realize there's ended on a lot of the negative, but there can be a lot of healing and vibrancy that happens here. And these are some of the common pitfalls. I fell into these pitfalls as well. Like, I'm not saying this as someone who's immune from that.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure, no same. I think I've said it on here before, but I mean, I definitely did a presentation back in the day at a conference about the superpowers and kryptonites of being a neurodivergent entrepreneur, not something I would do today. But that was very early on in my discovery phase. And I was just feeling like so prideful, but also like I needed to defend my struggle areas and highlight all of the strengths in a unique way.

MEGAN NEFF: I mean, at least you included the kryptonite. You weren't just like autistic people or ADHD people are better entrepreneurs.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure. I am way better at talking about all the things that I struggle with and things that I do well, so that was never hard for me. But at first, initially, I just didn't understand why the usage of language like that was harmful, and having to just do a little bit more work around like the disability models, and just spending more time and doing deeper dives with like even for myself as a lower support needs autistic person, thinking about all of the accommodations I have to build into my day and my week, I'm like, "I need to talk about that stuff way more."

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the challenge is, like, we enter into a disability space with a lot of excitement and again, understandable, like all of a sudden, our life makes sense. We feel validated. But many of us don't necessarily have the context of the disability movement or the conversation that's happening there. So, we can kind of enter in with a lot of gusto. And then, without intending to cause some hurt and cause some harm to other people, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep. And we've talked about on this podcast how when you enter into this space, especially later in life, you're probably going to say things that you're going to step in it, and you're going to have to walk it back and do some learning and unlearning. And that is part of this process.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, this comes from Callie, The Black Spectrum Scholar on Instagram. And I did an interview with them. And one thing they said that I just loved so much, and we were talking about both white identities, but also, autistic identities, is they said you have to have compassion for wherever you are in the development arc, because shame and guilt, it shuts us down.

So, for example, as a white person, if I get kind of filled up with my white guilt, and if I feel shame, like I stop showing up and I stop learning. And I love that invitation from them of have compassion for yourself wherever you are in the learning because there's a reason it's a developmental arc. Like, it actually makes a lot of sense that we go through these stages, like we have to go through or we don't have to, but it's developmentally makes sense to go through an immersion phase where you are throwing yourself into the community. You're connecting with pride, and there's going to be some things that we don't yet know, and that's nothing to feel shame on. It just means that's where you are in the developmental arc.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, 100%.

MEGAN NEFF: So, some of the missteps I did in this phase, I definitely felt fell into us-versus-them thinking. I think there were a few reasons for that. I think I was so excited to feel like I had a community I belonged to, and then, like an identity group I belonged to.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure.

MEGAN NEFF: But it was really easy for me to fall into, like, well, neurotypicals, and then neurodivergent. And so, I did fall into some of that us-versus-them, and where I definitely made a lot of blanket statements about neurotypicals that are not fair.

I think I also, how this is uncomfortable, but I think it's so important to name, because there is things like discomfort around my white privilege and my other privileged identities, there was also something where I felt relief having a marginalized identity that I could identify with. And I noticed that, and I was like, "Ooh, this would be really easy to kind of bypass my discomfort around my other privilege identities."

But in that there was times in my head that I overly conflated, I don't think I did this publicly, but I know I was doing it in my head, I overly conflated my experience of a marginalized identity with other people's different experiences with marginal identities. So, there's also something in this phase for me around power, and privilege, and having an identity that names something, but also, like, helped me move away from the discomfort of my privilege, that there was a temptation to over identify with that identity so that I could bypass the discomfort of my privilege.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I imagine for a lot of people that's definitely a common experience, for sure.

MEGAN NEFF: Was there any of that for you?

PATRICK CASALE: Possibly not that I can, like, immediately recognize. I have an interesting perspective, sometimes being married to a black woman, and surrounded by a lot of black women in my life, and family members now. And that, I always am trying to revisit perspective through multiple lenses, because I'm like, I have probably as much privilege as any human on the planet, right? If people didn't know I was ADHD, well, didn't know I was half Jewish, that I really could be comfortable in most situations. So, I've just tried really hard to remember that and remind myself of that. And that does not mean I always get it right at all, but I've learned a lot from being married to Arielle in a lot of ways.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I was curious about that for you.

PATRICK CASALE: I think I'm hyper vigilant about my awareness of how privileged I am, and it can be a frustration of mine sometimes.

MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I think I am too, which is why I think then having one identity that I could point to, like, because I'm hyper aware there was that temptation to, like, over-identify with that.

PATRICK CASALE: Makes a lot of sense, you know? This is a real struggle. I want to lean into how much of a struggle this is. And like you said, I'm sorry, go ahead.

MEGAN NEFF: I was going to say, partly because also my experience didn't match the privilege. I don't know how to say this, but it's like, again, pre-awareness, if I looked at my life, I knew I had a lot of privilege. So, then I was like, "But why am I suffering so much?"

And then, I'd feel guilt about that, of like, when I have this much privilege, I shouldn't be suffering, like, especially with my mental health as much. And so-

PATRICK CASALE: I can relate to that.

MEGAN NEFF: And so, then it was like, I think that was part of it was because there was a life experience that felt like it didn't match, or like my difficulty integrating into groups, but not knowing why. So, like, it also felt like it named something about how I'd experienced privilege that I didn't yet have a name for before. So, that was also part of it.

PATRICK CASALE: I can definitely relate to that. Absolutely, 100%. And it almost feels like an incongruency, like a discrepancy, you know? When you're like, I'm recognizing all my privilege, but why am I struggling so much? And then, there's guilt about struggling because you have so much privilege. It's really complex. So, yeah, I've definitely experienced that as well, for sure.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, I would say this stage is very much influenced by our privilege and by our other identities. And then, again, if someone's already integrated, either a queer identity, or a black or brown identity, or another marginalized identity, or another disabled identity, then I think this stage would look pretty different than for those of us who have more power and privilege.

So, the next phase, after that immersion, and I would say, like, also, the thing is some of us will move through, and some of us will kind of perhaps stay. And actually, I feel like a lot of people maybe get kind of stuck in the immersion phase. This also might be a time where people have a lot of passion, and so it also might be a time where people have a lot of energy for content creation. So, it also could be that this might be a time… That's really interesting, actually, is that a lot of the content that we might be consuming might be coming from creators in the immersion stage, because that's when they have energy to be making this kind of content.

PATRICK CASALE: True. That's very true. I can say that my ability and capacity to make content now versus two three years ago is very different.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, that speaks to, like, the plus side of this stage is there's a lot of energy, there's a lot of life, there's a lot of vibrancy.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. 

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I still see, like, you know, different feeds of like, even with everything that's happening now, it's like, well, neurotypicals are kind of designed to get to be like cows that are herded, and autistic people are non-hierarchical. And this wouldn't happen if it was autistic people. And it's like, okay, that's immersion phase. We're doing some Aspie supremacy there.

So, there is a lot of content on social media that comes from the immersion phase. I think that's partly why I got off, like, I really don't open the apps anymore. I think I'm for, like, mindful social media consumption, of, for me, it was I went through a phase of like, I'm going to scroll and I'm just going to notice what my body feels like. And what I noticed was that my body did not respond well. And so, I made decisions based on that.

And in my early days, again, pre-like encounter and immersion, I absolutely needed social media because there weren't other resources. And so, I'm so appreciative for what it provided me when I was in those developmental phases of integrating this identity.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%, absolutely.

MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so the next phase then would be integration. And that's kind of rooted in relational identity is what I have for that. And that's where the identity begins to settle a little bit more understandably. I think it's really front and center early on. It needs to be. But here's where perhaps there's less urgency around it. Maybe there's more time to kind of integrate it into our other identities. It's not so like kind of front and center. 

And so, some of the experiences that can be common here would be a more grounded, flexible narrative. So, neurodivergent identity, perhaps, is less all defining, and more integrated into other parts of us. There's a little bit more space to hold contradiction and paradox, both like you and I, even in recording our podcast, I feel like we've expanded in our ability to talk about the hard parts of being autistic and ADHD. I bet if you listened to our first 30 episodes, I doubt we were that comfortable getting into the hard stuff. So, there's more comfort with holding the nuance of like I can love this part about my experience. I can have days where I hate being autistic, and that's okay. Like, that doesn't make me a bad autistic person. So, the ability to hold nuance.

So, some of the common behaviors we might see here would be people doing more boundary work, having more self-compassion, more relational growth, more like openness to cross neurotype collaboration, and also, more awareness and advocacy that is intersectional in nature, both in regards to thinking about different support needs, but also, identities, so kind of more intersectionally grounded.

I think some of the strengths of this phase are things like more resilience, more what I would call relational maturity, and being able to hold that nuance. A lot of collective liberation becomes a bit more of the focus versus individual liberation. I think some of the risks around here are some of this, like the systemic barriers, obviously, still are here. We can start to get some community fatigue. And I think just the ongoing challenge of like staying present, and in it, and grounded when we continue to experience and face injustice.

So, I don't think this means everything's resolved by any means, but I think it's like these are some of the things we'd see when the identity has gotten kind of integrated in more nuanced ways. What do you think about that phase? Does that resonate with you? Do you see those patterns?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. And I agree with you about like, if we did a timeline glimpse into our podcast, and our collaboration, and relationship, you would see very different stages on the arc, probably from even when you used to appear on my other podcast till now. I think, yeah, absolutely.

MEGAN NEFF: Yes. I think the integration phase, I feel like it's important in the sense that I know for me, my thinking around support needs, my thinking around, like, intersectionality, it's just really deepened. The more I've been in the community, the more I've been thinking deeply about these things. And I also know that, like, yeah, that's not where I could have jumped in. I needed to go through the other phases first.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%, 100%. That's why we did the ADHD autistic starter pack series as well, simultaneously with this, and added a lot of nuance and complexity to those conversations, the things that we wish we had known, things that we immediately found out post discovery. Because those conversations need more nuance than just simplistically saying this is now how we think about things, or this is the language we use. There's a lot of complexity to every conversation that we've had over the last two weeks. And we could add even more to probably every single episode that we've done.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and I'm sure there's things that we're missing from our own subjectivity that we'll learn, like, as this airs, and we'll be like, "Oh my gosh, yeah, that's something that was important that we missed, or a perspective that I missed." And I think that's part of the like, we're always learning and growing, especially when we're in, like, a community that holds a lot of complexity, and a lot of, like, a lot of different identities.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, absolutely. So, let's say we've crawled to the finish line. [CROSSTALK 00:46:11].

MEGAN NEFF: We've crawled to the finish line. We made it.

PATRICK CASALE: All right, you all, sponsorship time.

MEGAN NEFF: We really are grateful for our sponsors, because that was another thing, is, we actually weren't sure we could continue to financially float the podcast, and then we have had some really fantastic sponsors this year.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, for this series and the ADHD Autistic Starter Pack series, we've had both Landmark College and the Jane app for healthcare simultaneously sponsoring as recurring sponsors. And we really appreciate both of them. You can find Jane app for healthcare, for mental health, and medical professionals. You can use code DCPOD for two free months off your EHR needs. 

And honestly, we just want to continue to work and collaborate with businesses, and companies and people that we can stand behind confidently. And we appreciate everyone's support. And you're probably not listening to us anymore as we babble on about this. So, we'll see you on Fridays, on all the platforms in YouTube. And goodbye.