Episode 131 (Season 4): Why ADHD Isn’t About Being Lazy or Unmotivated
Nov 07, 2025
Show Notes
Struggling with being labeled "lazy" or "unmotivated" as someone with ADHD can fuel deep shame and misunderstanding. These stereotypes overlook the real challenges and complexities neurodivergent people face every day, especially when it comes to executive functioning and self-worth.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the pervasive myth that ADHD is simply about lack of motivation or laziness. Through candid discussion, they explore the realities of inconsistent motivation, the role of shame and internalized ableism, the overlap and differences between ADHD and Autism, and their own personal experiences managing daily life, self-care, and executive functioning struggles.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Gain real insight into why ADHDers often internalize harmful labels and what’s actually happening neurologically and emotionally beneath the surface of "laziness" or "lack of motivation."
- Hear honest stories from Patrick and Megan Anna about managing shame, tackling everyday executive functioning challenges, and embracing self-compassion as a neurodivergent adult.
- Explore how living with both ADHD and Autism can shape self-understanding, coping strategies, and the ongoing negotiation between passion, energy, and daily life demands.
If you’ve ever wrestled with shame or frustration over "simple" tasks, or if you want to better understand the ADHD experience beyond stereotypes, this episode will help you rethink what motivation really looks like and why you’re not alone.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
All right, everyone. So, as we continue to kind of break apart some of these myths and deconstruct them, today is about ADHD just means that you're lazy and unmotivated. Megan Anna, what comes up for you when you hear that?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that is such a common trope of ADHD. I think it's one of the reasons I had a hard time seeing myself as ADHD, is because that I struggle, but I want to describe my struggles in those words. Unmotivated doesn't quite capture my energy. And I'm constantly working.
So, I could look at parts of my life and might use the L word, and say, I'm lazy there. But yeah, these words aren't words I've connected with, which is one of the reasons it was so hard to see myself as ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you've mentioned before on here that it was actually harder to see yourself as ADHD than autistic. And I have a reverse experience. So, I always find that fascinating when we are-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:02:34] ADHD. Yeah, the lazy, unmotivated piece, it sinks in for me sometimes. And I think it sinks in when I crash. Like, when I'm having a burnout episode, or I'm just like, low energy. I immediately start to think like, "Oh man, I am so lazy. I'm never motivated to do anything." Another part of it is like, "you never finish what you start" type of mentality.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, I do relate to that one. Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And in reality, as we've talked about, like, the interest-based nervous system on here, and we talk about following your energy and your passion, and obviously, giving yourself time to rest. But who has that? I've realized, like, okay, you are certainly not lazy or unmotivated.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. So, yeah, I don't relate to this idea, but I also know a lot of ADHDers do relate to this experience. And I mean, I think shame is important when we're talking about either autism or ADHD. But I feel like every time I talk about ADHD, I talk about shame, because these do tend to be the messages that we internalize, and it comes with so much shame.
And I think I have similar narratives, though slightly different. It's like, I would say mine is like, damn it, why can't I prioritize? Like, how come I can work for 14 hours, but I cannot, like, okay, classic example, with the encouragement of my spouse, finally decided to do an ADHD medication trial. And do you want to guess how long it took from getting the prescription to logging back into my account to just order the pills?
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, is it over under 30 days?
MEGAN NEFF: It's under 30 days.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay.
MEGAN NEFF: Because there's another medication that I absolutely rely on. And I had to re-up those. And so, that urgency of that got me logged in.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, how long did it take?
MEGAN NEFF: 21 days. But it was because I absolutely needed the other medication that I only have five days left on that I was like, "Okay, well, I've got to try to…" I absolutely need that medicine. And then, I logged in. And I was like, there's some irony of the ADHD medication, maybe would help me order the ADHD medication.
PATRICK CASALE: And I think that what you just said is going to be so relatable for so many people listening, of like, needing that urgency, right? Like, having it be last-minute, or something else that creates that pressure to finally do the thing that feels like we don't "have the motivation to do." And couple that with, like, maybe some RSD thrown in the mix when we're talking about the shame component. And it's a mind fuck.
I often think, like, who listens to me and the things that I say, or like the advice that I give, or the encouragement, or the coaching? Because, like, so often I don't even know if I put shampoo in my hair when I'm showering. And I have to, like, say it out loud multiple times. And be like, "I'm putting shampoo in my hair." And then, I'll do it. But then five minutes later, I'll be like, "Did I put shampoo in my hair?" And then, I'll do it again.
MEGAN NEFF: I was going to say, that's a really good working memory hack. I've heard other people talk about that when they start, like, narrating externally. Like, "I am doing this thing, I'm taking my medicine." But actually, it sounds like it's not that helpful for you.
PATRICK CASALE: I always think about it like, okay, if my executive functioning is really struggling, and I can tell because I feel so scattered, and I'm doing several different things, but I'm not doing all of them to completion, that's when I will start using hacks like that. But they don't work for me. I just convince myself that they are going to. So, that's even like walking out into the kitchen and being like, "Okay, you're doing this thing." And then, immediately going to write it down, forgetting to write it down, moving on to something else, than standing there, like, with this vacant expression of, like, "What was I doing?" And then, it takes hours for it to come back to me.
MEGAN NEFF: That is the thing is a lot of the ADHD hacks take energy.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Another one for me is I lose my TV remote in my bed all the time. And I even say out loud where I'm putting it. If I'm like, "I'm putting my remote to the right of my head." And then, I'll be like, frantically patting down my blanket and like, shaking it in the air. And Arielle will look at me and be like, "It's right next to your head where you said it would be." And I was like, "Okay, thanks."
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh. I lose stuff all the time, my earbuds, my phone. And I'll find it in the most random place. And I'll just be like, "Why? Why is it there?"
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and this is a good, like, for me as an outsider, like looking at it when I'm around other people, these are things that I sometimes pick up on, of behaviors that are happening that indicates to me, like, immediately. Like, "Oh, this person's an ADHDer."
When I was in Italy a couple years ago, looking for that event for my summit, a woman who was showing us around every day, her name was Ferrida, very nice woman. But she's the most scattered human. And we'd be driving down the road. And she'd say, like, "Oh my God, I don't have my phone with me." And we had just went into, like, seven different locations and venues. And she would be like, "I know it's on a window sill in the palazzo in one of the 32 rooms." And then, we'd have to turn around, start all over, look for her phone. She would find it. And then, we'd move on.
And throughout that process, I would be like, "Ferrida, do you have your phone?" And I feel like I overaccommodate that way for my wife's ADHD a lot, where I'm like, "Did you book this appointment? Did you put this in your calendar?" And she's like, "Leave me the fuck alone." But then, she'll be like, "Can you help me put that into my calendar?"
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and this is that dynamic that often happens in ADHD couples. I know it's happened in my relationship, which we've started talking about more, which is the parentification of, especially when one partner is an ADHD, is there can be this dynamic of the non-ADHD partner feeling like the parent, and then, the ADHD one feeling like the kid. That's like, kind of a hard-romantic dynamic too.
PATRICK CASALE: We should write a romantic novel about this experience, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I am curious for the, I mean, you're in an ADHD-ADHD relationship. I am curious what the dynamics like there, if that still happens, but like in different domains, because ADHD can show up in different ways. Like, sounds like your wife is more scattered than you are, but there's probably ways your ADHD shows up that might be different than hers.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, for sure. We're actually going to make some videos about my office versus her office, her car versus my car, her side of the closet versus my side. That's where my autistic side really shows up, is like, yeah, it's very structured, very orderly.
MEGAN NEFF: So, that's interesting. This is where I would have more shame-based narratives. I was saying I don't necessarily relate to the lazy, unmotivated, but chaotic, messy, gross, definitely gross. And then, struggling with prioritization, yeah.
There's different like EF quizzes out there and assessments. And when I did it, the area I struggle the most is organization, which creates so much stress in my life, both digitally and physically. And so, it's the I can't get motivated for the life tasks. I can get very motivated for work tasks, but lifeing, oh, my goodness. Like, that's where I'm like, I feel like a kid, or I feel like an inept adult.
And then, there's that, it's kind of like the spiky profile of people will look at me and they'd be like, "Well, you're a published author, you have a doctorate." Yeah, I can do that. But like, please don't ask me the last time I changed my sheets, I'll be very embarrassed.
PATRICK CASALE: That's such a good example, honestly. Like, it's so true. And that's kind of what we're talking about, right? Is like the behind the scenes a lot of the time, especially if you, okay, maybe your PhD, and your research, and your book, and your creation for Neurodivergent Insights. But it sounds like because you are really interested in those things, really passionate about those things, it's a lot easier to get up for those things, to put your energy into them.
MEGAN NEFF: Which is why, like, ADHD really is more of an inconsistency in motivation, not a lack of motivation. And that's what, like, parents cannot understand in kids, or partners, and each other, or us in ourselves, of like, well, how can you have energy to go do that thing, but you can't do your chores? Or you have energy to go do that thing, but not this thing?
And again, that's where a lot of my shame-based narratives come from. Is like, how can you do this, but you can't take eight minutes out of your day to do this really simple workout on this equipment that was really expensive that I bought because I was like, this will be the thing that fixes me? Which is also a very ADHD thing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I'm shamefully looking at my Peloton that is collecting dust, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes. Mine is also a bike. It's a carol bike, which gives, like, restricted hit training, which I got during, like, some of my health stuff, of like, okay, I can do this eight-minute workout a day. My body can do that. My body actually can. My ADHD, though…
PATRICK CASALE: It cannot. Yeah, like, is yours a closet, basically, because I see some stuff hanging on ours. And I'm like, yeah, what is this actually doing here?
But that's such a good point. And I think about that a lot, where I'm sitting in the darkness of my own home, where I am most of my life, and I'm working on something, and I feel really creative and really inspired. And the time goes by and I'm like, "Damn, that was like six hours." Or, "That was like a couple of hours of doing whatever.
I'm in chronic pain all the time. It would take 10 minutes to probably start my day with some stretching or something light. And I can't bring myself to do it. And that creates such a shame response where it's like, how did you just write X amount of words for your book, but you can't even, like, dedicate 10 minutes to making your body feel better?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, same. I mean, so I've had this chronic, like, hip, pelvic pain since my last childbirth. And my youngest just turned 11. So, that's a lot of years. And I, you know, finally found a chiropractor that has actually helped reduce the pain, but there are stretches I could do daily that would be so helpful. It would literally take 30 seconds. She even taught me how to do one in my chair. I have a really good chiropractor. She was like, "Well, if you're in your chair a lot, just adapt it and do it this way." Yeah, why is it so hard to do these 32nd things?
PATRICK CASALE: It's amazing when we, like, zoom out, right? Because like, a comparison and comparative analysis you're like, "Ooh, I just made this course for my business. And that is exhilarating, and it took so much mental energy, but it was really fun, or it took I was really creative." And then, you're like, "But I can't put the laundry away. I can't, like, do the dishes."
MEGAN NEFF: And this isn't true, but in my mind, it's like, well, it only affects me, right?
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: So, like, if I'm in pain, that only affects me. But things like, I literally just worked on getting the course up this weekend. So, it was a fun analogy used. And I'm like, well, that affects me, but it also affects, like, you know, the health of my business. So, it affects my team, it affects my kids, so there's more motivation for that, versus if it's clean sheets or stretches that make me hurt less or getting to the doctor. It's just my wellness. And it's things that impact my wellness that I struggle to get motivated for, which is ridiculous when I have a book called Self-Care for Autistic People.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, I mean, I think it's funny, but I don't think it's ridiculous, because I think so many of us are in that boat of like we can offer this support for other people, but we so much and so often struggle to do it for ourselves.
I think I'm just going to be honest to you all listening, who are mental health providers, but I think we struggle a lot to practice what we preach. It's a lot easier to take care of other people than it is to take care of ourselves. Sometimes we have narratives of, like, I'm not as deserving, it's not as important. It doesn't have as much impact. Like, there's so many internal narratives that come with that, too. But I think that's a big part of it. And, yeah, I struggle so much with all of this stuff. And it just seems trivial when we say it out loud, but it's so freaking hard.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And this is why I sometimes say, I'll be curious how this is perceived, that I sometimes feel bad for ADHDers who don't have the benefit of the autistic sidekick, because I do see how my autism sometimes helps ground some of this. I also see how my autism makes my ADHD harder. But I do see how the craving for routines, the special interest energy paired with ADHD, hyper focus, I think it provides a little bit of containment and grounding for some of this ADHD struggle, in a way that if someone was just ADHD, I feel like it can feel more untethered. Like, that's just kind of an instinct I'm curious about. I don't have anything to point to.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. If you listen to that and relate to that, let us know, because I think I would agree with you. I would imagine it's really hard to be just ADHD and not have the autistic side, like helping with, like, routines, order, and structure.
And I always look at my autistic side as over accommodating for my ADHD side in a lot of ways, and that's probably what leads to such an intense amount of burnout, too. Is like the autistic side is working in overdrive to kind of, like, fill in all the gaps, or, like, ensure that the roof isn't leaking. I almost look at that image of like patching the roof with like a million things, as the ADHD side is just like spinning around up there doing whatever it wants to do.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I've been talking and reflecting more on this in my essays this last year, of my relationship to my autistic and ADHD parts, and realizing, like, I've got a lot more shame and a lot more resistance to my relationship to my ADHD. Like, I tend to, and I'm trying to work to be kinder toward it, but I do. I tend to treat it kind of what you're describing as, like this pesky, obnoxious teenager.
And I know it's more than that. And so, I'm like, like, wow, that's interesting. There's definitely internalized ableism, but also, just maybe grief to work through in that, in that, yeah, ADHD is like, kind of a nuisance, which, like, yes, it is. That's like, if it's not a nuisance, then it's probably not ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean [CROSSTALK 00:18:45]-
MEGAN NEFF: It's part of the reality, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: All of you may not, but I agree with that.
I am grateful for it, though, too, in a lot of ways. Like, I think the creativity side of me and just the ideas that I can generate oftentimes are connected to my ADHD side. And sometimes, my impulsivity and risk-taking has led to successes that I probably wouldn't have had because my autistic side would be like, "That's too risky. Don't do that. Don't like, leap without thinking about it." And the ADHD side wins that arm-wrestling match and is, like, "Going to do it anyway." And then, I mean, I owe a lot of my career to that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, I feel the same way of like, I am thankful for my ADHD. Like, my autism is thankful for my ADHD. And that, like the ADHD, helps me get out of ruts and helps me kind of expand my world.
Okay, here's a really hard question. You don't have to answer it. If you could only keep one, which one would you keep?
PATRICK CASALE: That is a really good question, but it's also a really hard question. I think early on, I would have said ADHD, without a doubt. I think I felt more shameful about the autistic side when I was first diagnosed, and I didn't understand myself very well.
I think fast forwarding four years and enjoying the familiarity, and the structures, and the routines that I've built for myself, I really enjoy this, like, low-impact life sometimes. But I also think the ADHD side propels me to travel more, and I really like traveling. I don't know how to answer that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. It's really hard. And it's also hard to know like-
PATRICK CASALE: I think it depends.
MEGAN NEFF: What did you say?
PATRICK CASALE: Like, I think it depends on the day, sometimes the hour.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, I would answer it different daily. Yeah, for sure.
PATRICK CASALE: Do you have a definitive of like, I don't know.
MEGAN NEFF: No, yeah, it's so hard. I mean, it is so hard. And first of all, I would want more data. So, I'd want it to have a day with just the autism and a day with just the ADHD. And I also don't think it's probably that, you know, neat and tidy.
So, here's what's interesting. I didn't know how I was going to answer this. I thought I would answer I'd want to keep the autism, but I actually wonder. So, I feel torn. I love autistic culture and community, and like most of my community, well, it's AuDHD. And I really love the special interest energy. I'm not sure how much that would be retained through ADHD passions. But I think because, like, I say this a lot, and it's true, I feel so disabled by the sensory stuff. Like, that's the most disabling aspect of my autism is the sensory. And I know ADHD alone can have sensory stuff. I do think it's less intense than what you see in autism, especially the combo.
So, as of today, I think I would keep the ADHD. Partly, I would just want to know what that's like. Like, can I go in public and enjoy it? Like, what's my energy like? Because I already have so many executive functioning challenges and chaos. I actually don't know-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:24:03].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I don't know how much my autism is actually helping rein in my executive functioning challenges. But I do know the sensory stuff makes everything so much worse. So, if you ask me tomorrow, my answer might change. But right now, in this moment, I would be very curious to just keep the ADHD, but yeah, that feels weird to say.
PATRICK CASALE: I relate a lot. You know, sensory stuff is really debilitating to me.
MEGAN NEFF: And oh my gosh, what would it be like to intuitively pick up context? Because that's a distinctly autistic thing. I think it would be like, you know, in Wizard of Oz, where it goes from black and white to color?
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: Like, I kind of think, the ability to actually perceive and experience context intuitively, not analytically. I think would be so interesting, and that would be so much less labor. Okay, okay, yeah, I think I'm keeping the ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Maybe this will help you work through some of your own shame around your ADHD parts, acknowledging that you would rather keep the ADHD neurotype.
MEGAN NEFF: Sorry, I interrupted you with my excitement on that discovery of the context. You were starting to say you agree with me.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I definitely agree with you, but mainly the sensory piece. You know, the sensory piece for me is easily the most challenging of everything that I experience. And, yeah, I fully relate to that. So, I think that would be a really wonderful shift to not have to be so impacted by every single thing that I experience and encounter.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, okay. I just started laughing, because I just had a moment of, when we started recording, we were like, "Let's do a few episodes on ADHD, because we always talk about autism." And somehow, we've made this ADHD episode about autism.
PATRICK CASALE: You know, we are who we are. I think that's [CROSSTALK 00:26:33]-
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, even that, right? Even in the fact that we keep, autism is always what we go back to as baseline.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: That's interesting.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it is interesting. I've had a difficult time writing my book because it's like supposed to be specifically about newly discovered autism into adulthood. And I'm like, "How do I write this book without incorporating the ADHD experience of everything, and in reality, I so often like anchor into the autistic experience?" So, it's interesting.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and the book I'm writing is the autistic ADHD combo. And so, I'm like, "Okay, I've got to go learn a lot more about ADHD." I mean, I know a lot, but, like, I haven't done the same level of deep dive of ADHD alone as I have autism, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It's interesting.
MEGAN NEFF: I also feel sad as soon as I said I would, and again, the question was, if you had to release one? I feel sadness. I feel both relief of thinking about not having sensory stuff and of like perceiving context. That sounds so nice, but I also feel sadness at the idea of releasing that.
I don't think I would. Yeah, I had a friend asked me that, like, you know, if you had a pill and you could be non-autistic, would you take it? At the time, I said no. Most days it's no. There's definitely days where I'd be like, "Give me that pill." But for the most part, I wouldn't change my neurology if I had the choice. Yeah, how about you?
PATRICK CASALE: I could get real dark with this right now.
MEGAN NEFF: I know. I was like, am I saying that because that's the appropriate thing to say. I was like, yeah, how would I actually answer that if I'm not a publicly figuring autistic ADHD human? Because that's the appropriate response.
PATRICK CASALE: I wouldn't change my neurology.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think-
MEGAN NEFF: But there's days I would.
PATRICK CASALE: This is a nuanced answer for myself. I think about this a lot, actually. I don't know how dark I want to get with this right now. I think just saying out loud, warning-wise, talking about death, I fully expect to die pretty early in my life. I've said that my entire life. You know, when I hit 30, I was like, "Wow, I'm more than halfway done." Now I'm about to turn 39 next week, and I feel really more than halfway done.
I just feel like life is so hard all the time. Like, sensory-wise, socially, energy-wise, capacity-wise, overwhelm-wise, chronic pain-wise, chronic health-wise. I'm like, I've joked around with you and said, like, I wish my brain was just in like a robot dog or something. But in reality, like my body hurts all the time. I'm not comfortable often, if ever. My brain is not comfortable often, if ever.
So, I think the answer would be like, I don't know any other existence, but if I could trade it sometimes, I think the answer is absolutely yes, because I think so often that the existence is torturous and it's painful.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really appreciate that honesty, Patrick. And I feel that too. And I think being affirming of this identity is making space for that complexity of like, our existence can be really hard. And like, it's okay to not always love our autism or our ADHD and to fantasize, or long for, or be curious about a different experience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. My brain is like, now segue into, so, ADHDers are not lazy or unmotivated.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I also always thought I was going to die young. And I still do partly. It's like, if this body feels like this at this age, because I'm 41 now. Like, I can't imagine what it would feel like at 70, 80. But even before that, as a teenager, I was like, yeah, I'll die by X number. So, the fact I'm 41, it's like, "Wow, I've lived."
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:33] in the [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:33], you know, if that's the image, you know? I think about that constantly. And I know we've talked about this, but I think that's a common experience for a lot of autistic people, is to thinking about death, and time, and just thinking… And, you know, I'm just naming this because I know some of you might message me, this is not like a cry for help. It's more like an acknowledgement of that reality, and even the fantasy of disappearing is so often in my mind. But I think, again, to anyone who's listening, it's not saying that I'm actively working on that happening. It's just this, like, almost relief feeling of like, oh, it would be such relief to not have to deal with all of the things that you have to navigate, and experience, and filter out, and put to the side or experience simultaneously, and the demands that pile up. It just feels like relief sometimes to think about the disappearance of self.
MEGAN NEFF: And do you mean disappearance of self, like disappearance from the life you occupy, or, like, disappearance of existence?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think existence, right? Like, and it's not the desire to not exist. It's just the acknowledgement that it would be like relieving simultaneously. I don't know, it's a weird paradox.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, you are so weird, Patrick. ADHD means you're not lazy. Here we are in middle of, like, a very intense conversation around how hard existence can be, and about how, like the reality that is, a reality that many of us live with, which is like the desire to not be here.
And so, sometimes I feel like talking vaguely about it is harder than talking directly about it. One framework that has been so helpful for me, and I'm curious if this is kind of what you're describing, or if this language is helpful. I mean, I'm sure you obviously know the language too. But in my training, when I first learned about okay, there's suicidal ideation, which is ideations around or desires around wanting to unalive oneself. And then, there's this thing called non-suicidal, morbid ideation, which is, if I didn't wake up tomorrow, that'd kind of be a relief or so it's the like I would be, it's more of a I'd be okay with non-existence, which often points to like, how overwhelming someone's life feels rather than an active…
PATRICK CASALE: Precisely.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I think the non-suicidal, morbid ideation is so common because we're burnt out, because we're over capacity, because we just want things to stop, and we often don't have language for that. And I think it can be really scary to even bring up the fact that we're having these thoughts to therapists, to people in our lives. And so, that's where that framework it's, like, it felt like a deep sigh of like, "Oh, there's a name for this and this is what I'm experiencing." Is that kind of what you're talking about?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, 100%, yeah. I've said this before, but I've felt this way since I was like five or six years old. Like, I remember feeling this early on when I did not have language for it, and I didn't understand why I felt like the demands of being alive were so hard. Like, the simple existence felt very demanding.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when we've, I think, connected on that of, like, just this fantasy for demands to stop. Like the demands of having a body, and like the nails that grow, and then you need to trim them again, and bellies that get hungry, and then you need to feed them again. Like, it's so annoying.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It is. It is. Like, we've said before, autistic bodies, zero out of 10, do not recommend.
MEGAN NEFF: And it gets back to the ADHD of like, these are all little daily maintenance tasks that we often struggle to get motivated to do. And there's a lot of daily maintenance tasks and demands when you're in a body and moving through this world that need maintenance.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. So, if you are an ADHDer, we see you, we hear you, and understand that you're not lazy or unmotivated. And we understand why you can do such incredible things sometimes, and then not be able to do "the simplest of tasks" and really beat the shit out of yourself mentally for that. So, we just want to offer you that grace and compassion around that, because it's not easy. You're not alone.
MEGAN NEFF: Your face. I'm like, there's a lot happening.
PATRICK CASALE: You know, I'm time tracking too, so like [INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:58]. But like in reality, I'm just like, "Damn, we got heavy." We were like, "We're going to start light." Don't ever listen to us, you know? We never know where this is going to go. We were like, before we start recording, "We're going to do a light episode today. We don't have energy." We're in heavy, existential conversation.
So, thanks for all the support, and the listens, and the shares. And you know, we really do appreciate when you all share with us that these conversations are impactful, and relatable, and supportive. Because I think that's what keeps us going in this platform, is just acknowledging that people feel seen, and understood, and affirmed, and supported. So, we appreciate that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, let's do the weird transition thing, which is like, hey, find us on the podcast platforms and YouTube on Fridays. And make sure to check out our sponsor, Jane app for healthcare. And use code DCPOD for two free months of your first couple of months on their medical records system. And we will see you next week.
