Episode 130 (Season 4): Intelligence Myths About ADHD and Autism
Oct 31, 2025
Show Notes
Challenging the stigma that ADHD and Autism are linked to intelligence is critical for fostering self-acceptance and equity in neurodivergent communities. Myths about intellectual ability not only misunderstand neurodiversity but also perpetuate harmful stereotypes and barriers to support.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the pervasive myths about intelligence and neurodivergence—including the misconception that you “can’t be smart and have ADHD,” or that all Autistic people are either intellectually disabled or savants. Through candid discussion and personal stories, they unpack the nuanced reality that ADHD and Autism span the entire intellectual spectrum, delve into how executive functioning struggles are misinterpreted as lack of intelligence or ability, and explore the intersectional impacts of racial bias and systemic injustice for neurodivergent children in schools and society.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Dispel damaging myths about intelligence, success, and neurodivergence by hearing frank conversations about how stereotypes harm both diagnosis and self-esteem for ADHDers and Autistic people.
- Gain a deeper understanding of intersectionality—learn how race, environment, and access to support shape outcomes for neurodivergent individuals, especially in educational and legal systems.
- Find validation and practical encouragement: whether you’ve struggled with shame, self-doubt, or dropped out of jobs or school, this episode reminds you that your intelligence and potential are not defined by neurotypical success metrics.
This episode invites you to challenge stereotypes about intelligence in relation to ADHD and Autism and embrace the full spectrum of neurodivergent experience.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today, we are tackling the myth of you can't be smart if you are ADHD. Or, if you are autistic, you also have an intellectual disability. Or, all autistic people are geniuses or savants.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Basically, there's a lot of misunderstandings around how IQ and neurology intersect. And what we know is that for both ADHD and autism, it spans the whole intellectual spectrum. And that is a big misunderstanding within popular culture.
PATRICK CASALE: The end.
MEGAN NEFF: The end episode. Episode done.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, I mean, we hear this a lot, right? So, let's tackle the ADHD side first, because I think we both know that we're going to diverge more into the autistic side.
So, you can't be smart and be ADHD. Complete and utter bullshit, right? Like, ultimately, where does this myth and misunderstand come from? Because ADHDers struggle with executive functioning, distractibility, impulsivity, the whole gamut, right? So, what does that ultimately look like in scholastic and workplace environments?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so it looks like struggle. And then, a lot of us will internalize, "Oh, well, I'm not smart."
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: Or, "That's how the teacher perceives us." And then, we also know there's this relationship of how people perceive us, kind of, can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, if there's a young child who's ADHD and especially if the teacher knows it, and they start relating to them in that way, then that child, it kind of sets them up for a long struggle with school environments, on top of the ADHD, just the experience of how the teacher is perceiving them.
And then, even more so for black and brown ADHD children, because there's also potential for racial bias to be in the mix as well. So, there's the ADHD aspect, but then there's also the social aspect of being an ADHD child navigating that system.
And then, same thing in college. Like, there's lots of research. We know ADHDers are more likely to drop out of college. On average, it takes us longer to finish college. So, all of these struggles that we have navigating traditional school environments easily gets translated to you're not smart or the other one I hear is you can't be successful and have ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and that's a painful one. The, you know, you're not smart, you can't be successful. And I just want to say, like with everything we've talked about, there's nuance and it's a paradox. And it's not binary. So, there are obviously going to be ADHDers who do struggle with their intelligence, that are not successful. And it's not like end-all be-all of, if you're ADHD, you are not smart, you can't be successful. I know so many ADHD entrepreneurs who are so unbelievably successful.
MEGAN NEFF: And then, there's so many ADHDers who really struggle to be successful.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, both are true.
PATRICK CASALE: And it's always like a question of the chicken or the egg, if it's like, if we had the right accommodations and supports in place, could this person be successful? And how are we defining successful, right? I think that's important to think about.
But what you mentioned about scholastic environments in schools, I mean, especially for black and brown kids, it's going to be labeled as behavioral challenges. It's going to be labeled as like, fun.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorders, we know that they're much more frequently diagnosed among black and brown ADHD children. And then, especially in the school environment. And that becomes a pipeline. Like, it becomes a pipeline for, you know, detentions to prison.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:05:35].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's another thing. We haven't talked about that, but the population of ADHDers in prisons is much higher than the general population, which makes sense. Again, back to that idea that we talked about in a recent episode of undiagnosed ADHD is destructive. Like, it'd be really interesting how many folks in prisons, like, it was unsupported, unsupported ADHD, undiagnosed. And then, especially if you're throwing on top of that other identities that are leading to systemic injustice. And I mean, that could branch into a whole conversation on our incarceration system in the States and how messed up that is.
PATRICK CASALE: We should definitely do an episode that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I was a criminal justice major, by the way, in college. And I spent a lot of time in prisons and jails. And I want to say, like, if I was not a cishet white person, man, specifically, I'd probably be in jail or prison. I did a lot of destructive, illegal shit as a kid, and a teenager, and a young adult. And I got caught for it all by both law enforcement and parents, and I never got in trouble.
MEGAN NEFF: Dang, we should talk about that. Yeah. I mean-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I got arrested when I was 13. And, yeah, that experience would have been really different if I wasn't white.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, 100%. I've been thrown in cop cars. I've been driven by cops to my house for doing illegal, destructive stuff for them to give my dad-
MEGAN NEFF: And then, it's like, we'll just give you a ride home.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, that's the response.
PATRICK CASALE: They just told my dad, they were like, "We're going to watch him until he's 18." And that was it.
MEGAN NEFF: This is interesting, because we've talked about, and I know both in our personal, like, social medias, we've talked about this, but probably, I'm sure, on the podcast about how risky it is to have a sensory meltdown in public when you're black or brown. We haven't talked about how risky it is to be an impulsive risk-taking child who's ADHD when you're black or brown, and especially in the United States context.
PATRICK CASALE: And the United States context, and just to reference Tiffany Hammond of Fidgets and Fries, again, it can very well lead to death. It can lead to police brutality. It can definitely lead to incarceration unnecessarily.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: When you live in a racist society, and you are inherently racist at just through development, through the culture that you live in, you're going to have that bias when you see a black or brown kid having a sensory meltdown on the street.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Or when you see a black or brown kid being impulsive or taking risks-
MEGAN NEFF: Shoplifting, right?
PATRICK CASALE: Shoplifting. Like, do you know [CROSSTALK 00:08:39]-
MEGAN NEFF: Like, that's what I was arrested for, yeah, yeah. And it's going to have a different outcome.
PATRICK CASALE: That's really fucking sad.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So yeah, we could do a whole episode on that, and maybe we will, because I think that's actually a really important one that we have not touched on.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, for this intersectional piece, huge shout out to Sandra Coral, who we've also had on the podcast. They have a book, It's Never Just ADHD. I love the design of the book. And it's for educators, but I think a lot of folks can benefit from it where it's basically each chapter is different case conceptualizations, where it talks about, like, the kind of the, like, what the teacher might be experiencing based on the different intersections of the different ADHD children in the chapters. But it does such a good job of looking at how these intersections show up in the classroom, but then the teacher's reaction to that can shift based on those intersecting ideas, identities, words.
PATRICK CASALE: Words, the third podcast in a row today, for those of you who don't know that we're batching, and that's why I'm wearing the same cow shirt. You would be inconspicuous because your outfit does not often change. So, like…
MEGAN NEFF: I'm always in black. Yeah, I actually do that on purpose when I record because, like, when I'm recording courses, I kind of like the videos to be consistent. My hat, though, is different.
PATRICK CASALE: That's true. Different hat, same you.
MEGAN NEFF: Same me.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, so ADHD side, for sure. And being ADHD does not equate to having a certain level of intelligence. I think we just want to name that foundationally here.
And for those who are ADHD, who are in that shame space of like, "This is what I've been told my whole life. This is the messaging that I received. Here's my internal narration and my internal critic and voice. I can never finish anything. I've dropped out of college. I've had to leave jobs, I've had to do certain things." That does not mean you're not a smart human being. There's no correlation there despite the messaging that you're receiving. And it just-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Sorry, go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: I was just going to say, I think the part that gets confusing is, so we do have executive functioning struggles. And like it's a forward-facing intelligence. And what I mean by that is how smart a person looks to the outside or to ourselves. I think when someone has really good executive functioning, they are perceived as smarter because they're able to, like, you know-
PATRICK CASALE: Quote, unquote.
MEGAN NEFF: …manage, and finish tasks, and all of those things. So, I think it's confusing when someone say they're are smart, but then they have pretty significant executive functioning struggles. That's confusing because it's almost like I've got this power, but I don't have a system to, like, channel the power effectively, if that makes sense?
PATRICK CASALE: Right, right.
MEGAN NEFF: Because the executive functioning is like the tools and the skills that would help you to really implement that intelligence in ways that are helpful as we're navigating work, or school, or just even life.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. That's 100% correct. And, you know, I mean, we did a giftedness series, but we're not even going to throw like giftedness into the equation either, because like that is an impactful conversation of the intersectionality of like autism, ADHD giftedness, and that certainly further complicates things when executive functioning struggles are in play [CROSSTALK 00:12:23]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yep. Well, and these kids also might struggle with, like, placement, because they might not be placed in gifted classes because of the executive functioning struggles, but then the kind of typical classroom is too under-stimulating for them. And so, unless they're put in the gifted program with accommodations, they're going to struggle.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:12:45]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I struggled mightily because I was so freaking bored all of the time. So, I either acted out, disrupted the class, still somehow got straight A's, would not go to class because it was so boring. And I just felt like I was always floating in spaces that I didn't belong in. Like, I just never felt like I found my like, "home" so to speak in school. I never [CROSSTALK 00:13:11].
MEGAN NEFF: Did you feel smart moving through school?
PATRICK CASALE: I just equated straight A's with being smart. So, I just knew, like I could get hundreds on my tests, I can get hundreds on my papers. I always got straight A's. But I don't know if I felt smart. I just knew that I could do the work very easily. I didn't know if that meant I felt smart, though. I just knew, like, this is easy.
I still don't feel smart a lot of the time. Like, I feel like I'm bumbling and like, stumbling through life, and like, just somehow piecing it together. That's how I often feel.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I often feel that way too.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: All right [CROSSTALK 00:13:53]-
MEGAN NEFF: Which is why I like having notes before we record. So, I'm like, can I actually quote the studies and have the names, because otherwise, I'll just bumble through it, which I appreciate, but it's important to be able to do that too, I guess.
PATRICK CASALE: I want to give you a lot of credit, like, from where we started to where we are now. Because I think, like, it feels to me, I don't know if it feels like this to you, that these conversations come more naturally now, and your heart has gone down quite a bit, where I think you used to really live up here, right? Like, in your head, with your research, and your studies, and the data.
MEGAN NEFF: And I still have this, but I think probably just with exposure, it's helped, is a fear of getting it wrong, especially because it's like, once I say it, it's out there. And because we don't pre-script what we're going to talk about, I don't have a chance to go back and, like, make sure I have the researchers I want to credit.
But I have a lot of fear around saying an idea and not crediting the right person. Like, it's a kind of intellectual respect thing. So, I think with exposure, I've just gotten more comfortable with it, or more comfortable with being like, I know there's a study, but I can't remember the name right now. So, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Fair enough. It's not a very autistic process that we have, huh?
MEGAN NEFF: No, that is interesting, because we're always like, well, we always talk about autism, but we have a more ADHD process.
PATRICK CASALE: That's true, that's true. We just kind of say, here's the concept, let's see where it goes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, or maybe it's an intuitive process. I also think of both of us, like, maybe it's not an autistic or ADHD thing, maybe we do an intuitive process. And I think of both of us as pretty intuitive.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, would agree with that.
MEGAN NEFF: Or authentic. Like, we'd rather be authentic than, like, here's our bullet list of things.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, any day of the week for me. But yeah, that's just my personhood. Okay, we're switching gears now. We were talking about autism being linked to being intellectually disabled.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I mean, I think this is slowly going away, but I think partly there's just most people, if you took a random person off the street of the US or probably in other countries, and asked what they knew of autism, they don't know much. But a lot of people, I think, would equate it with an intellectual disability.
And a lot of, kind of, early services and early research focused more on autistic people who did have co-occurring intellectual disabilities, or unautistic people who are non-speaking. And then there was that false assumption that all non-speakers have an intellectual disability, which we know is not true.
So, I think that idea is still out there, as is the opposite, which is the savant, the rain man. It's like, "Oh, so you've got some kind of special skill." Which savants are more likely to be autistic, but not all autistic people are savants. A small percentage of us are.
PATRICK CASALE: Isn't it fun to unpack these things with, like, all this nuance and all this complexity? It's like, yeah, this is sometimes true. But sometimes it's not true, and it's not always true. Yeah, yeah.
But that's an important distinction. And you know, I think that that's probably often where the superpower kryptonite trope comes into play, too, when we're thinking about, like, savant level intelligence, or like, certain abilities, or certain skills that some autistic people possess, doesn't mean that all autistic people possess them.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We were talking about some of the common responses we get around, "Oh, I'm autistic." That can be another one of like, "Oh, do you have like, a special skill, or what's your secret skill?" It's like, "Oh no, not a savant."
PATRICK CASALE: Oh no. Don't understand, like, complex coding. Definitely don't understand most of math. Definitely failed statistics in college three times. I mean, I just was like, "Why do I need this in my life? What am I ever going to do with this?"
I think that's just important. Like, this is something I want to highlight in my book over and over and over again, is that this is not a binary experience. Like, this is not black and white.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: There are going to be, like, common groupings of traits, and experiences, and struggle areas. And there's going to be very vast differentiation as well. And I think that's important to hold the both, which I think can be really challenging, especially if we're talking about, like, autism and black and white thinking.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Like, how do we unpack all this nuance if we also have black and white thinking?
MEGAN NEFF: Because we fall into that. And this is where I've learned a lot from Kali, Black Spectrum Scholar, on this is so… And I've put this in my identity development model for neurodivergent folks, is one of the ways of thinking. And I fall into this for a little bit, is we can have that rigid thinking of like, "Oh, all autistic people are hyper empathetic." Or, "All autistic people are just as sensitive."
It's like, no, that's not true. It might be nice to think that, but that gets into that kind of supremacy, of like, well, autistic people are better than allistic people, or the sneaky place I see it is around the non-hierarchical. Like, well, we're non-hierarchical. So, those neurotypicals, they're easy to, like, kind of corral into like a herd. And they'll just follow the leader.
And that's a like, it's a really demeaning way of talking about LSD people. Not that there's not like some kernel of truth in that, but again, it's that all or nothing thinking that can… And I think there's a part of the identity development model where we're kind of feeling a lot of pride in our identity, where it makes sense that a lot of us experience some of that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep.
MEGAN NEFF: And yeah, that cognitive rigidity shows up.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And you know, I think we're going to do an episode in this series of all autistic people are empathetic and really unpack the types of empathy that exist. And I know that kind of correlates to, like, highly sensitive personhood, and deep feeling, and very like intuitive. And it's just the reality of, like, some people don't experience any of that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Like, bringing alexithymia into the mix and interoceptive struggles. And, like, you know?
MEGAN NEFF: I think this is what makes autism so confusing, is, I think of being you tend to be on an extreme, is my experience. So, a person tends to be like, extremely hyper-empathetic or experience hypo-empathy. And so, there's a lot of ways that we experience the extremes, and both can be true. It's just, I think we tend to have more extreme experiences of whatever kind of trait we're talking about, except IQ. IQ, it's full spectrum. We can be anywhere on the spectrum.
PATRICK CASALE: Just to double down on that, you know, it makes writing this book really freaking hard, because-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I bet.
PATRICK CASALE: I just keep thinking nuance, nuance, nuance, like, in everything. And then, do you get too much in the weeds of like, over-explaining the nuance of all the things? That's what I'm trying not to do. It's like…
MEGAN NEFF: Because then is it like a textbook versus… So, I struggle with the… So, self-care for autistic people. Most of the reviews are really nice, but of course, occasionally, I go and read the bad ones, but even in reading the bad ones, sometimes that's a helpful learning for me, because I do realize some of the feedback there is, yeah, I was talking from my experience, and at times, definitely globalized to like autistic people. And it's like, it's really hard to talk from our experience and try to talk to autistic people, and then, also, nuance it. And you might experience the opposite of this, right? Like, that's hard to write a book that way.
PATRICK CASALE: It's really fucking hard. And every time we do an episode, or every time I consume more information, I'm like, "Oh no, I have to change this, because this is not what I think anymore or how I experience something." So, what a fun experience that this has been, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes. Just have a really, really good Forward. I really liked Donna Henderson and Sarah Wayland in their, Is This Autism book. I really liked their, I don't know if it was their Forward or first chapter, but I just thought they did such a good job outlining, like, here's what we know now, here's the language that's commonly used now, it might change by the time this book is in print. It will definitely change in 5, 10 years. I think building that into your writing.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah. It'll be kind of written all over the place. Like, this is just my experience. I am a cishet white man talking about my experiences. Like, there's so much nuance. I'm not trying to, like, typecast. I don't want to typecast and say, like, one size fits all experience. But the reality is, there are also going to be people who read it and are like, "This is fucking horrible, or this doesn't define my experience. This is terrible." And that's just a reality that I am going to have to live with and shrink away from.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, that is part of the reality. And back to the... Because it's not a binary. So, they there will be people that will read it and not connect with it, but then there'll be a different autistic book that they will connect with.
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, same thing with my work or our podcast. There's people that listen to this and are probably like, "I'm not connecting to this at all." And then, there's people who do. Like, so it's so good we have this emerging… Like, there really are so many, like autistic ADHD podcasts, and books, and like creators, and it's good we have so many, because just because someone's autistic or ADHD doesn't mean we're going to connect with their work, or the way they teach, or the way they talk about their experience.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%. And I think the takeaway from this whole series, right? Is, again, not binary, lots of variation, because humans are all diverse in some way or form, and not everyone has the same experiences. And whether that be environmental, or biological, genetically, socially, economically like, not everyone has the same supports in place. Like, so it's just important to continue to drill down on that, I think.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think the other piece of it is… And I think this is true of both ADHD and autism, but definitely autism is it rarely walks alone. I have yet to meet an autistic person who's just autistic.
So, this is a weird metaphor, but sometimes I think about autism as like tofu. I don't know if you cook with tofu much. We're a-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:25:04]-
MEGAN NEFF: …vegetarian family, so and tofu will kind of take on the flavor of whatever, like the seasoning or whatever you're cooking with it. Sometimes, and this metaphor breaks down, because autism is more than tofu. But sometimes I think about how autism can take on the flavors of whatever's with it. So, if it is autism with a co-occurring intellectual disability, that's going to look very different. Or if it's autism with the gifted spice put on. Or if it's autism with dyspraxia and like motor coordination. Or autism with bipolar, autism with OCD. Like, the expression of our autistic traits will take on the flavor of whatever is in the mix with the autism. And typically, there's many things in the mix. And so, I think that's also part of why it can be so hard to nail down, well, this is the autistic experience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, that's really well said, autism and tofu. I actually think that's a good metaphor. I just despise tofu so much.
MEGAN NEFF: I actually don't like it either, but Luke cooks with it a lot. And so, I'm familiar.
PATRICK CASALE: All right, anything else? I think we covered it, you know, the myths in general. So, I feel good.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I think one thing we could add is, I know for ADHD is it does tend to take longer to get diagnosed, if you have a higher IQ, partly because you do develop more compensation strategies, and so that can prolong diagnosis or just make it harder to get diagnosed as ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Well said.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I love when you [CROSSTALK 00:27:03]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:27:03] end it there.
PATRICK CASALE: It's fun.
MEGAN NEFF: You love when I end? You like seeing me squirm and get awkward.
PATRICK CASALE: I think, sure, yeah. I mean, maybe. I won't put you in that position. All right, you all. Thanks for listening. All the major platforms, podcasts, YouTube, all the things that we always talk about on Fridays. Make sure to go check out Jane app for mental health and medical care if you need a new medical record system. Two free months with code DCPOD at checkout, and bye.
