Episode 128 (Season 4): Do Autistic People Want Social Connection?
Oct 17, 2025
Show Notes
Autistic people are often stereotyped as uninterested in social connection, but the reality is far more nuanced, and longing for connection can coexist with the need for isolation or sensory protection. Understanding your own capacity and motivation for relationships isn’t just helpful, it’s often a key part of self-acceptance.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the misconception that Autistic people don’t want connection. They talk about the nuances of social motivation, energy, and capacity; share candid stories about their own friendship, relational differences, and how the neurodivergent community feels different than neurotypical interaction; and offer insight into parallel play, the importance of rhythmic attunement, and what actually makes friendship feel sustainable and authentic.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Challenge myths and stereotypes about Autistic social motivation and capacity — this conversation provides context, nuance, and real-life examples from Patrick and Megan Anna’s own experiences.
- Discover what makes neurodivergent connections uniquely rewarding (and sometimes difficult), including honest reflections on friendship maintenance, the metaphor of “cactus” versus “Venus flytrap” personalities, and the power of finding your rhythm with others.
- Learn ways to build and sustain relationships that honor your needs, including adaptive strategies for digital, parallel, and deep connections—and why unmasking and attunement matter in making friendship work.
If you’ve ever wrestled with wanting connection but feeling like social energy is limited—or if you’re searching for friendships that honor your neurodivergent rhythms—this episode is full of empathy, insight, and practical ideas. Deepen your understanding of what authentic connection looks like and how to find it in your own life.
Additional Learning
To explore more about relationships, cross-neurotype dynamics, and navigating communication differences, check out these Neurodivergent Insights articles:
- The Double Empathy Problem: neurodivergentinsights.com/the-double-empathy-problem
- Cross-Neurotype Communication: neurodivergentinsights.com/object-based-vs-social-based-conversations
- Object-Based vs. Social-Based Conversations: neurodivergentinsights.com/object-based-vs-social-based-conversations
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
MEGAN NEFF: So, Patrick, I have a question for you. Autistic people don't want connection. True or false?
PATRICK CASALE: We have one of those buzzers, like a big buzzer. I mean, false. I think that there are layers of that. That's a nuanced question per every question we're going to tackle.
MEGAN NEFF: I feel like nuance, like #nuance, is just going to become this season's hashtag.
PATRICK CASALE: Added to the t-shirt idea that we're never going to create. Okay [CROSSTALK 00:02:18]-
MEGAN NEFF: I interrupted your flow.
PATRICK CASALE: That's okay. I don't really have a flow right now. My brain is really foggy.
Okay, so one, I would say false, insert buzzer sound. We've talked about social motivation and social capacity on here before. And I think, you know, we've gotten quite a few questions of like, can there be extroverted autistics in our Instagram feed as well?
And I think all people, to some degree, want and need human connection. But I think that varies greatly on so many different factors. And for me, it's like, is that… You always talk about like the Goldilocks situation or experience. Like, I need it to be just right in order to really want that and experience it in a fulfilling way that I can actually be a part of. But, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, like, social connection, that's too broad. It's like, what kind of social connection?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: It's really important. Like, do I want random social connection filled with a lot of humans, a lot of stimulus, a lot of small talk or medium sized talk. No, I'll pass. I'd rather stay home with research and weighted blankets.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Do I want, like, deep searching connection that feels a little bit more rhythmically attuned? Yeah, I do.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I also like, yeah, okay, no, I was about to get too into theory. So, yeah, I do want connection. I will also say, I feel like I need less of it than most people in my life.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And I know you've mentioned that can make friendships hard and relationships hard when you want less connection than maybe some people you're connected to.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm like a cactus. Like, it doesn't take much. It doesn't take much water. And I'm good. So, it's hard to be friends with, like, what's the kind of plan that needs a lot of water? Like, needs water every day?
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:04:21].
MEGAN NEFF: Like, I don't do well in friendships with plants that need watering every day, because I'm a freaking cactus.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:04:27]. She's out in the desert and you're by yourself, comfortable there. You want water once a week, maybe once every two weeks, sometimes once a month. That's okay.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I'm more of a cactus than you are. I can tell.
PATRICK CASALE: Without a doubt, yeah. I would say I'm more like, maybe, like, a Venus fly trap. I don't know how much water it needs. But like, you know, I want connection till I don't want connection. And then, I'm like [CROSSTALK 00:04:54]-
MEGAN NEFF: And then, you start eating the flies.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Or just real overwhelmed and irritated. And like, you know, there's all the things that come with my own social experiences. To quote the great Dr. Neff on one of our podcast episodes, you said that the soul yearns for connection, but the body yearns for isolation. And I think that's the most powerful thing I've ever heard you say.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, thank you. I don't know how to take that in. It does get quoted a lot, so I can tell it gets-
PATRICK CASALE: You don't need to.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I kind of randomly found those words and when I did, I could tell it felt like I was naming something really true. And it seems to resonate with a lot of autistic people, like… And that's where, oh, layers. There's just so many layers to all these things, right? Like, we almost need it.
So, social connection. There's so much in that. There's social longing, there's social motivation, there's what kind? Like, the quality of the social connection. But then, there's also social energy and social capacity. So, it's like in that idea of my soul longs for connection, my body craves isolation it's, I don't have necessarily the energy or the sensory resources for connection, even though I might long for it. And so, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, really, you know, I quoted you on my TEDx with that, because I think it's so powerful. I think I quote you in my book about this. I quote you so many times. I'm going to have to give you royalties or something. I don't know.
MEGAN NEFF: 10% please. Thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, maybe. I mean, hey, it's been that instrumental. So, I think that's such a powerful statement, one. I want to, just, like, if you haven't heard that said before, just kind of sit with that, you know? I think it's a really powerful, poignant statement. Also, should go on the t-shirt list. I don't know if it's Kaylen or Caitlin, but whoever his name it is [CROSSTALK 00:07:02]-
MEGAN NEFF: Kaylen is the design magic at Neurodivergent Insights. And we are going to get a merch line-up eventually. When we do, Kaylen will be the one who will be the design magic behind a lot of that.
PATRICK CASALE: That quote needs to be, yeah, absolutely. I think that feels like foundational.
So, what I'm thinking about is the nuance behind, like, connection, socializing, capacity, limitations. There might be some people who would fight us to the death on this and say, like, no, autistic people don't want to be connected. And I would say some autistic people may not want to be connected. And I think we're going to say that about a lot of these topics, of like, some autistic people may not want, or may not experience, or may not like… Insert whatever the statement is. But that cannot be a universal truth.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like, it goes back to, like, you know, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:08:01] one autistic person. You met one autistic person. And then, especially when you throw in the ADHD.
I would love, I don't know that we could actually get a clean study on this, but I would love to see, like, social motivation. So, not social energy, but social motivation of autistic only. ADHD, only. And then, AuDHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you said it well.
MEGAN NEFF: Before this book comes out, I want to figure out how to say AuDHD without pausing.
Okay, lost train of thought. So, because I do think ADHD bumps up the social motivation for a lot of us. That's kind of a theory I have. I would probably not, and I wouldn't define it in the negative. I wouldn't say autistic people don't want social connection. I would say there are social autistic people. And I relate to this a bit, who have such rich inner lives and worlds that, like, the social connection has to be really appealing to be more interesting than moving out of, yeah, yeah.
And that's like the origin of the word is about like, kind of being of our own world. And there's a beautiful phrase, my phonetical dyslexia is going to be really rough here. There's a beautiful phrase from the indigenous folks in New Zealand. The-
PATRICK CASALE: Maori.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, Maori. Can you be my phonetical support?
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I was just in New Zealand. That's the only reason I can say it [CROSSTALK 00:09:34]-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …correct.
MEGAN NEFF: How do you say it?
PATRICK CASALE: Maori.
MEGAN NEFF: Maori. And do you know how to say the word [FOREIGN LANGUAGE 00:09:40]? It's the word that is sometimes used for autism, which is in my own time and space.
And I find that a really beautiful descriptor of autism, actually, because that is a lot of my experience. Like, I remember both in high school and college, people would often be like, "I said hi to you and you just walked right by."
And I really was like in my own time and space. And for the most part, unless my mind is raging with mental health stuff, it can be a really pleasant space to be. I wouldn't say it means I don't long for connection, but I would say it has to be pretty, pretty compelling connection to want that over what I can have in my own time and space.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great point, because I'm sure a lot of people listening can relate. I'd say I have more social motivation than you.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, definitely. I think you initiate 90% of our socializing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep, I do.
MEGAN NEFF: Maybe 95.
PATRICK CASALE: It's hard because, like you said, right? If we had that study or that we could refer to, of like autistic-driven connection, initiation, ADHD, or AuDHD. I really have no basis, because I am AuDHD. So, I can only ask other people what they experience. And, you know, I think that's challenging and tricky sometimes, because my perspective is my perspective.
So, I acknowledge that, like, I initiate a lot of connection with the people I want to be connected to when I'm feeling really lonely, especially. But I'm feeling really lonely a lot, so that probably means I'm initiating connection a lot. However, I don't have the capacity for the connection that I'm initiating.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, wait.
PATRICK CASALE: So, [CROSSTALK 00:11:45].
MEGAN NEFF: I want to pause with that. I don't have the capacity for the kind of interaction I'm initiating. I just want to sit with that. That feels like a really important truth you just named. I feel that. I feel that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I've never said that before. I'm really glad my brain's not working right now because… But yeah, I don't often have the capacity for the connection that I'm initiating, I don't.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And that's tricky now that I say that out loud like that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: But it's kind of heavy.
MEGAN NEFF: It is heavy. It's, I want connection, but I don't have capacity for connection.
PATRICK CASALE: It's kind of a variation of your statement, honestly, like… And that's really my reality of… And I've just always had so much struggle in connection, too. Like, as so many of us tend to, like, struggle in certain social situations or connecting environments. Like, I just struggle with so many things.
I've noticed how much I have to constantly track and be aware of in order to feel like any sort of regulation. And that could be even an attunement with other people that I feel really connected to. And like, the littlest thing can create, like, that stack of cards, almost like coming crumbling down, mostly sensory.
MEGAN NEFF: Right. You started with, like, you want it, but the condition, it has to be the Goldilocks. So, it's like, all the variables have to be in place. And then, it's like a card house of like, one thing's, yeah, yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:13:34]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:13:35] probably pretty hard, don't you think?
MEGAN NEFF: Say that again?
PATRICK CASALE: It's probably really hard to be our friends.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, that's probably why I don't have many. Like, I joke about it, but I really am horrific at friendship maintenance.
PATRICK CASALE: Can I ask you a question, though?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: This is interesting to unpack, so horrific at friendship maintenance, you would be a cactus in the middle of the desert, but you did create like The Nook. And that is, obviously, for connection and community. But you would say there are contexts to connection and community, right? Like, different layers of connection, community, friendship, relationship. But it does scratch some itch, though, in terms of, like that piece.
MEGAN NEFF: It definitely does. And it's interesting, I'm actually, like, in the middle of, I'm going to be meeting with our staff, our community manager, soon. She works with Neurodivergent Insights to like, I'm rethinking The Nook. Because I always said I'm going to know it's like at its capacity of size when I feel it, and I've started to feel that. And so, I want to be, like, rethinking kind of how we structure it, and how often we let new members in, because I have noticed that the connection I was getting when it was smaller, it's, like, started to shift a little bit into like, it feels like work, like work tasks to, like, keep up versus…
And I remember you saying that with your Facebook group, too. And so, yeah. But every time I'm on a live call in the community, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, yeah, connection."
And, I feel like we talked about this in the wellness series. Like, when I am preparing for a call, like, of course, even with you know, people I know, I still get a little bit anxious, of like, "Will it go well?" Then I always leave of like, "Oh my goodness. That felt so incredible to connect with other, mostly AuDHD humans, and just hear other people's wisdoms and thoughts." So, I always leave those calls feeling so grateful and connected. And like, yeah, I want more of this in my life.
And I forget that, right? So, like, if I could easily not initiate that if it wasn't on my schedule, it's like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine without that. And then, once you taste it, it's like, "Yeah."
So, I am a weird paradox, though, in that, like, I talk about relationality all the time. I think about it all the time. And I'm a freaking cactus in the desert. And both of those things.
And I don't know, maybe that is why I philosophically think about relationality so much, and why I write about it. Because I do know that I crave it less than other people in my life. I am generally more fine without it. And there is pain there. There is pain around it's been hard to build the kinds of connections that I've wanted throughout my life. And I wish it was easier.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm only getting emotional.
MEGAN NEFF: Why are you?
PATRICK CASALE: Because I feel sadness for you, because I love you, as a friend.
MEGAN NEFF: I've actually had the thought. I was like, I wonder if this would be a helpful thing. This is probably my like paranoia, because I get anxious thoughts. But like, I wonder how people think about our relationship, because we, obviously, are like, care so deeply for each other. And we do. We started, I don't know, maybe like six months ago, I think we started sharing like, I love you in messages. And I've wondered if we'd ever talk on this. It has felt really special. Like, I've heard other people use language of chosen siblings, and like, I've never really used that language before. But that like, and we've talked on this, of like, that's how you feel, to me, is like a sibling. And I know we both feel that. And I don't know, it's felt really unique and special.
PATRICK CASALE: Agreed.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yes, if people ever hear us or see us say I love you to one another, we are not running off with each other and leaving our spouses.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't have the energy for that. Seems like a lot of work.
MEGAN NEFF: Also, not something you do with a sibling.
PATRICK CASALE: No, no. But I think that's what makes some of this stuff special, you know? When we talk about connection, when we talk about relationship, I think that for those of you listening, because one thing I will say is I pay much more attention to our comments on our Instagram and social media than Megan Anna does. I don't think she pays any attention to it, which is good for her mental health.
MEGAN NEFF: As that cactus.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, but I see a lot of you saying things like, I don't really have connections with anyone. I want them. I don't know how to access them. Or relationships and friendships feel so hard. Or I don't have anyone that cares about me.
And that really breaks my heart when I read stuff like that. And I guess I just want to name that and model the fact that we can build them while we're sitting here on air. Like, it's all happened because of an Instagram DM back in the day.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: You know?
MEGAN NEFF: I didn't remember the platform of how we connected. [CROSSTALK 00:19:47]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:19:48] a little more active on IG and I just remember-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we were in the Facebook group, too. They used to exist.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, I think there are lots of avenues to connection, you know, and a lot of us, I think, feel safer initiating conversations and relationships virtually. And I think that can make things really tough sometimes, when we have such rich inner worlds, and maybe we spend a lot of time virtually, then we lose access to that, like, person to person contact as well in person, and that can be when we seek it out, when you were mentioning before, if you go into some chaotic environment, maybe you're seeking out, like a coffee shop just to sit around people. Maybe you're, like, seeking just going to the park and walking around and seeing other people walking around. I think there are lots of ways that we connect subtly without acknowledging, like, that's what we're actually doing, or that's what we are actually looking for, searching for.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I mean, those are examples of, like, parallel play. Like, we can find places where, like, we can go parallel play with people, and they might not even realize that's what we're doing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, if you're going to a coffee shop or surprise, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I take for granted, because in my work, that for a lot of people, they don't know other autistic people, or they don't know other ADHD, or other autistic ADHDers. And, yeah, it is a lot harder. I mean, I will say the level of relationships I've been able to build since discovery and since finding autistic, specifically AuDHDers, like, there's just a connection that tends to be there. It is really different.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, circling back to the autistic people, like, connection. You know, I always think about, like, autistic or AuDHD, I wonder if there were like dating apps or matchmaking apps. I feel like there are, because people have DM’d-
MEGAN NEFF: There are.
PATRICK CASALE: And said, like, "Hey, can you pitch this?" I'm like, "No, I'm not going to be on it." But like, just friendship, relationship building groups, and apps, and different ways that it's clear that a lot of us and a lot of you listening are looking for more meaningful relationship, and connection, and just to feel a part of, I think that is what we want in a lot of ways, right? Like, just to feel a part of, to feel connected to humanity, to this world that we're a part of and live in.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:22:36] can feel really inaccessible in so many ways, too. And I think that I just don't like seeing like these black and white statements of, no, autistic people hate being social. They hate like being-
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, it might be true that we hate allistic socializing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that might be true.
MEGAN NEFF: And it's just, yeah. I mean, it goes back to like the double empathy problem and cross-neurotypical interactions, of, I'm sure I've referenced it on this podcast before. But Katherine Crompton has several fantastic studies where it's looked at both like communication and communication breakdown, but also, like, connection building and rapport building between autistic and autistic versus autistic, non-autistic. And like, consistently we see our communication, like, you know, it doesn't break down like when we're with each other. Like, it does when we're in cross neurotype. And we tend to connect more easily with each other.
So, a lot of it is also about learning how we connect. And this is kind of one of my stump speeches I can get passionate about. And this is the problem with a lot of social skills training, is it teaches you skills to connect in a way that, like, might be connecting for allistic people. And not that there's no space. Like, those can be important skills to learn. But it's not going to teach the autistic person, like, what do you find connecting? You know?
For us, it might be more of that, like, parallel play, or what I call object-based conversations, rather than, like, leading with social-based conversations, which is all that, like, "Tell me about yourself. Who are you? How are you?"
Like, if we can join a book club, or a DND club, or something where there's some sort of object that orients us, and especially, if it's a special interest, that kind of thing tends to be more connecting for us. But that's not what society tells us is connecting necessarily. So, it's also about like, okay, what do I actually experience as connecting? And then, like, can I honor that? Can I honor that parallel play? Is the way that I like to, you know, connect.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you know, we see a lot of, like, comments of like, really want deep connection. We really don't want that, like, surface-level shit. It's true.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: You know?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, I'm a cactus, but I don't need much water. But when I am watered, it needs to be, like, really dense water. You see that-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, what kind of water [CROSSTALK 00:25:17]-
MEGAN NEFF: …do you? I don't know. It's like compacted water. So, it's like, no sprinkler shit, it needs to be dense.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I get that. Yeah. It can't just be like a little, like, breadcrumb here and there. It's got to be, like, really intense. Yeah, there's got to be substance to it. Yeah, that makes sense. But it also makes sense that it's, like, harder to access and harder to find.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, and the reality is, typically, you don't just go deep with people right away. I mean, so I've actually, I feel like the people that are in my life are people where it's like, within a minute of meeting each other, we kind of are. But typically, there is some warming up before going deep.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure, yeah. And I think that can be challenging, right? Especially, maybe if we're, like, thinking about high masking autistic people who discovered their autism later in life, be really hard once you start the unmasking process to figure out, like, how do I connect with people? Because, like, again, going back to what we've talked about before, what are my interests? What do I like? Like, who the hell am I?
MEGAN NEFF: Because when you're masking, it's often about, like, how do I facilitate other people feeling connected to me? Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I've actually experienced very interesting dynamics from like, learning that I was autistic back in 2021-ish, as I've hosted, like, retreats and events, and started unmasking more and more and more to see how people react to that, in terms of, like, how I show up, how I speak, how I communicate things, how direct I am, how I will literally remove myself from, like, typical social gatherings and conversations. It's really fascinating to see who's like, stuck around and has been like, "That guy kind of sucks. He's an asshole."
MEGAN NEFF: Have people actually said that? Or is that your narrative?
PATRICK CASALE: I think there's probably truth to both, which is fine. But like, I just think it's fascinating when you start to become more of yourself, and then become more confident and anchored into who you are, and what you what you like, and what you prefer. It's really an interesting, like, social experiment.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I mean, because you kind of see who sticks and who kind of sheds away. Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And it just means, like, you're probably gravitating, again, double empathy problem, to people who have similar neurotypes in a lot of these social situations.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Or I am going to tell you that you have that neurotype very early on into our friendship.
MEGAN NEFF: I've heard from so many people, it was like, "Yep, first conversation with Patrick."
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:28:16]. Patrick's no longer a practicing therapist anymore, but you know, has diagnosed 28 of his close friends within minutes of meeting them.
MEGAN NEFF: I have wondered this, if there's a… And it's not always wrong, but that I think there's a bias. If I connect with someone, I'm like, "Oh, they've got to be autistic or ADHD." And it's almost like, I do think there's probably something that gives me something in the belief that, like, if I'm deeply connecting with someone, they've got to be these things, because that's where my people are. And often, it's true, but it's not always true.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that makes a lot of sense, but I think probably often is accurate.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, because there's like a shared rhythm. And then, the other thing I have really appreciated about shared neurotype connections is there's just so much understanding around capacity. Like, there tends to be so much grace, has been my experience of like, "Oh, you don't have capacity for that today?" "Okay." Or like, "Oh, you're canceling?" "Like, I'm relieved too."
PATRICK CASALE: I love it. Yep, I had to cancel on someone last week who we had scheduled coffee almost a month out, because our schedules just would not align. And I canceled because I didn't sleep the night before. And they were just like, "Okay, see you next time." And I was like, "Such a relief." I just did not have the capacity.
And I think that is a privilege and a place of feeling. I feel really a lot of gratitude for the friends that I do have in my life who I can just be like, I just don't have it. I don't have the capacity. I am in burnout, etc.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I think that goes back to that, like, social motivation versus social energy, of like, to be able to do maintenance of friends, we probably really need our friends to understand the social energy piece. Otherwise, that could lead to a lot of frustration, or a lot of like, the other person feeling rejected when it's a capacity issue.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, like they're putting in all the work into the friendship or relationship. And yeah, exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, can I ask, do you feel that way? Like, I'm curious, actually, now that we're talking about that, if you ever feel that way with us? Of like, because you do do 95% initiation, oh my gosh, words, because you do so much of the initiation. Does that ever creep in into how you experience our friendship?
PATRICK CASALE: I think probably early on, yeah, for sure, and that was more like, most likely, the attachment stuff that we've talked about on air. I honestly feel like post rupture and repair with you, I feel closer to you than ever. And when you go silent, which is a lot, I don't default to, "Megan Anna hates me and I did something wrong." I default to more, like, checking in on you and being like, "Hey, are you okay?"
Because I kind of get the sense when that happens from some friends, you know, I'm also speaking to you that I know something is like, not off necessarily, but I'm very intuitive in that way, of like being like, I can tell they're really having a hard time. And that's a lot of, you know, what I notice and pick up on with friendships and with people who, especially, I feel very close and connected to.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and that is definitely true. Like, when depression hits, that social withdrawal looks very different. And that is an important distinction when we're talking about social capacity, is when depression is also in the mix, most people tend to socially withdraw, and that that can be an unhelpful kind of withdrawal, versus the kind of withdrawal we might do that's adaptive to protect our energy.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And, yeah, I've appreciated that when you've reached out. And you're typically not wrong, it's usually I'm like, head deep in the sand with too much work, or I'm kind of in a low mood that's pretty withdrawn.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. And I think I go into also thinking, you know, we did our whole burnout series, thinking about, okay, depression or burnout, right? Which one is which? I think about my responses when I'm in either space. And I think withdrawing much more in depression, but being more irritated in responses, and frustrated in social relationships, and burnout. So, I can tell the difference sometimes for myself, which place I'm at mentally. Like, if I'm in major burnout, I'm so irritated by responding even to people I care about. I'm just like, one more demand, one more thing to do. I do not have the capacity.
And I've gotten so much better, though, about just saying that, like, I just don't have the capacity. I just don't have it. Because I used to try to respond to everything. And I think that's probably a big reason why I'm in the space that I'm in. But I also realize, like, with the people who I feel really connected to, I can just say that, and that can just be enough, and that's so helpful for me. It really allows me to have that space of feeling understood, and seen, and just affirmed in that way. Really helpful.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I know it wasn't our intention coming into this episode, but it feels like we're kind of mapping out what are some of the conditions that help autistic people connect. And some of the ones that seem to have come to the surface are things like people who understand my capacity, and who, like, will honor that. And so, it kind of allows for that natural ebb and flow that comes with, like, our social capacity. And then, think people who can talk openly about things. So, partly because there is more to potentially misinterpret when we have social capacity that ebbs and flows. Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:34:27]. I noticed a lot more, like, having to explain things to people like in work right now, if I'm just so irritable or burnt out that it's like I immediately respond to something the wrong way. And I have to be like, "Fuck." I have to backpedal, offer an apology, give context. And I'm like, this takes so much energy, and it's so hard, instead of people who can just be like, "This is what it is. This is where I'm at. And this is the reality."
Like, I was talking to my mom the other day, I'm not going to get too much into this, because we got to wrap it up anyway. But she was like, "What is wrong with you?" As I was telling her, like, I'm just not doing well, you know? She had read that burnout post I made on my Facebook that I shared with you. I was talking to her. She's like, "None of this stuff is just bringing you joy, Scotland coming to an end, the book deal getting signed."
I'm like, "No." Like, and that is a moment of being misattuned, right? Me saying that complete, what does the person need in the moment? I think a lot of us have those people in our lives who we have a lot of misattunement with, sometimes, of not saying our needs.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It sucks.
MEGAN NEFF: It does. There's an essay I wrote a while back. And sometimes I write essays and it's like, here's some education. Other times I write essays, and I'm, like, emotional while I'm writing them. And this was one of those.
And I talk about, like, rhythmic attunement, and how for so much of my life, it just felt like I was slightly out of rhythm with people. And like, yeah, that's a perfect example of there's a disconnect that happened there. And then, you feel misattuned in a pretty deep way, right? Like, what's wrong with you?
And I think that's what's made like this season my life so beautiful, is that I never expected to find rhythmic attunement with other humans. And by no means is it perfect. It's not like we magically don't have ruptures. We have to navigate with one another. But that is what neurodivergent community has given me, is a place where it's like, oh, like we're on the same rhythm here, versus always feeling like one beat off. But seeing that everyone else is on the same rhythm and, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah, that's exactly it. And then, feeling that way most of your life, up until you discover neurodivergent community.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, this is what Jim Sinclair, who talked about autistic spaces. He's a autistic advocate. He talked about this experience of like, when autistic people create spaces, and how when we come together, there's often that experience of like, I feel like I found my people, I feel connected. And how, when non-autistic people enter, they often describe the same experiences that autistic people describe in our normal life, of like, I'm not sure what to say. I feel kind of out. Like, they feel awkward.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:37:39].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just we don't get that experience because we're like 2-3% of the population, so rarely do we get the experience. We're setting the rhythm and the tone.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, that's a great point. That's a good callback to that, yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:38:01]-
MEGAN NEFF: You know, okay, last season we recorded, I kept being like, why do people listen to us? Because we're so like, down and depressed. Well, not always, but like, last season we were definitely.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:38:12] and depressed.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we're often a bit grumpy. I don't know, grumpy is not fair, but it's not the most hopeful podcast to listen to. But I actually think, I have a theory that part of what people listen to is our rhythmic connection.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I mean, yeah, absolutely. We go through podcast reviews. So many people point out our relationship, and how helpful our relationship and connection has been for them to feel, like, connected to us in a way, or to just talk about how nice it is to hear it.
So, did I send you that one from my therapist, Chantelle, who works at RMC, something about us being back on the air with the Burnout series, felt like a warm hug. I was like-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh.
PATRICK CASALE: "Damn, okay, okay." But I think you're absolutely right. I think you're absolutely right. Like, this would not have worked if we were missing the mark and misattuned all the time. This would be fucking terrible. Maybe not [INDISCERNIBLE 00:39:23] but for us, it'd be dreadful.
MEGAN NEFF: I think it'd be terrible for listeners, too. Because, like, I think that's the kind of energy, like, we pick up on and like people would feel that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I think that's it. You know, that's always what made this podcast work was relational stuff is what makes the podcast work. It's not about, like, I always said this, but I've never thought it's been about like, research, or education, or information. I think it's the relational component that makes people feel less alone.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, can the education be a little bit of it?
PATRICK CASALE: Of course, of course, education is important. I just don't think it's the driving force.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, because yeah, there's a lot of other podcasts that do that really well, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: You know, I think it's relational. It's modeling relationship, too. I also think we wouldn't be able to diverge and flow the way that we do. We had no idea what we're going to record about today. We just said connection.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Also, I noticed that we haven't even brought up the idea of bringing guests back on because we've now recorded two seasons without it. And I think we're really leaning into like… Because we lose some of that, the rhythmic connection.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it feels like that weird interaction, when do I speak? When do I not speak? I'm, like, feeling a visceral, like physiological response right now, as we're talking about that.
MEGAN NEFF: I just had a thought. Okay, this is a half big thought, but the definition of autism is like in my own time and space, the kinds of connections that I crave is when I can be in a time and space with another human. It's really hard to do that with more than one human at a time. I think it's possible, but it's like when we build a little, like I'm holding my hands like a little… Like, when we build a little world together, like I'm cupping my hands. And when it's like, you create a space where time and space exists. So, it's like bringing someone into the autism. That's the kind of connection I crave, is when it's got that same world feel, world building, but doing it with another human. And then, the kind of social connection that's a little bit more dysregulating is where it's like, I'm trying to sink to their world and back to my world, versus, like, building a world together.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Some of you might be listening and being like, "I have no idea." But I think if it makes sense to you, you might be able to be one of the people who can share water with the cactus. I don't know. I think we got some playfulness in this episode, which was great, too, after our episode we recorded earlier. So, that's it. Today has been a win.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:42:17]
MEGAN NEFF: And now we need to start like a BuzzFeed quiz of like, what kind of plant are you?
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, that's good for the Substack. That would be like, so good. What kind of plant are you? How much watering? What kind of water do you need? That's another question. Is it a sprinkle? Is it more robust?
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:42:39].
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, yeah. Arielle gives the plants all over our house and outside some sort of water. I think it's called, what's that water called that comes in jugs at the supermarket. Is it diluted water? I don't [CROSSTALK 00:42:54]-
MEGAN NEFF: What is diluted water?
PATRICK CASALE: Distilled water. I knew it started with a D. Yes, yeah, what did you dilute the water with? Distilled water. Or maybe it's potable water, I don't know. I learned that word the hard way.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm very high maintenance. I need very high-quality water.
PATRICK CASALE: Sounds like distilled water. When we actually adopted our Shih Tzu, the owners were like, "You have to give him distilled water every day." And I was like, "I'm not doing that." So, maybe that's why he is the way that he is. I have no idea. Could be. All right, diverging rapidly. Time to wrap up, because brain is unraveling.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay. Well, this has been connecting, and okay, now I'm getting very awkward. I was about to be like, "I'm glad we had this conversation." But we're not [CROSSTALK 00:43:4]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:43:44] connect with us further on podcast.
MEGAN NEFF: Thank you.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:43:47] do it on all the channels, because that's where we are on Fridays. Also, go check out our sponsor, Jane app. With code DCPOD, you get two free months upon signing up. Make your life a lot easier for medical and mental health professionals. We'll see you next week. Goodbye.
