Episode 125 (Season 4): Hidden Shame of ADHD: Restlessness, Relationships, and Post-Discovery Impact

Show Notes

Discovering you’re ADHD later in life can be a profound and disorienting experience—especially when it means re-examining your relationships, identity, and even your sense of self. For many ADHD adults, the post-diagnosis journey brings unique challenges and unexpected waves of both relief and shame.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the post-discovery experience of ADHD, both independent of or including an Autism diagnosis, exploring how ADHD can impact self-perception, partnerships, and daily living. Drawing from their own stories and clinical expertise, Patrick and Megan Anna reflect on internalized ableism, common misconceptions, relationship dynamics, and the emotionally complex reality of integrating an Autistic and ADHD (AuDHD) identity.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Gain a compassionate, firsthand perspective on the emotional aftermath of discovering you’re ADHD as an adult—including how shame, self-acceptance, and relief can intermingle in unexpected ways.
2. Understand the nuanced impact of ADHD traits on relationships, from struggles with contentment and impulsivity to the important role of neurotype-informed partnership accommodations.
3. Hear honest discussion about the societal framing of ADHD and Autism for AuDHDers, internalized stigma, and the lifelong process of making peace with the challenging (and sometimes conflicting) aspects of a dual-neurotype identity.

If you’re navigating your own late-in-life ADHD discovery—or supporting someone who is—this episode offers insight, validation, and real talk about what it means to live and grow as an ADHD adult.

 

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: DR. MEGAN NEFF: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are talking about post-discovery experiences and the identities that we are kind of sifting through and making sense of, the psychological experiences of discovering that you're ADHD later in life. Today, we're going to tackle ADHD.

And we want to really send a special shout-out to all the therapists out there, because we would not be here without them, including our own, who helped us through our own journeys of identification later in life. And our sponsor, the Jane app for healthcare, which supports both mental and medical professionals as a medical record system.

And we wanted to choose this platform because of integrity and because of how they show up in the therapist and medical communities, and how receptive they are to feedback, and support, and trying to be on the cutting edge of doing things differently. And that really made a big difference for us when we were deciding on how we wanted to move forward. So, special shout-out to all of the therapists who are using that software and doing the work.

MEGAN NEFF: It is interesting. So, I'm listening to perhaps more podcasts than is helpful for my mental health right now, speaking of mental health. I listen to a lot of political podcasts because I just can't not. And I'm noticing how many are plugging ads for mental health, especially like the big box mental health.

And it's interesting, I like that they're talking about mental health when they're not a mental health app. But I'm very, like, aware that, yeah, just a lot of people are struggling right now, mental health-wise. And so, I was noticing that how other apps are talking about mental health.

And in our choice, yeah, we wanted to go with a platform that we really believed in and that we think supports the therapists who are, like, doing really good, hard work. Like, I know a lot of therapists are really burning out right now.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%, 100%. And if you are going to go down that road and test them out, use code DCPOD. And you will get two free months to kind of mess around with it and decide if it's the right platform for you.

Alrighty, here we go, ADHD. We [CROSSTALK 00:03:26]-

MEGAN NEFF: ADHD.

PATRICK CASALE: Here it is.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so-

PATRICK CASALE: How many times have we referenced autism in this conversation. Do you want to say over under six?

MEGAN NEFF: I think we should make a game of it and where people can message in and tell us you diverged to autism X amount. And let's not actually count, but let's try to estimate at the end of the conversation, how many times did we make the ADHD conversation actually about autism?

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, challenge accepted. So, if you listened to our last episode, we were kind of looking back at what it's like to discover that you're autistic later on in life, and what it's been like to unpack, as Megan Anna said, pull out those dresser drawers and kind of reorganize neuroqueer, perhaps, take a look at all of your identities and the intersectionality's. I wanted to go on and talk about ADHD, which I think is a fascinating one for us, because we are both AuDHDers, yet, as we've discussed, sometimes we default to autism on this podcast. I'd say 93% of the time. And that's a conservative number. But I was diagnosed ADHD before I was diagnosed autistic. And you were in reverse.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I was in reverse, which I-

PATRICK CASALE: Okay.

MEGAN NEFF: But I think yours is more common. It's more common for the ADHD to be caught first.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so do you want to share what that was like for you to have that experience, like autistic first, ADHD second. What was it like post-discovery when you were like, ADHD as well?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that, partly, I felt like I was starting to get greedy with my labels. And partly because autism was a big one to take on, a big identity. There was a lot of kind of, I guess, I don't want to say proving, but yeah, maybe justifying that, yes, I'm autistic. Here's why. Here's the reasons.

And then, I was kind of almost embarrassed, of like, oh, and now I'm saying I'm ADHD. So, there's some of like that imposter syndrome around taking on another identity.

Also, yeah, I've shared on here, like, it was a little bit harder to see it in myself at first. But, you know, I talked a bit in the last episode how helpful the autism lens was in my marriage. I actually think the ADHD lens was even more helpful because there was a lot of things that was causing stress in my marriage that all of us like… And Luke is just such a gracious human. Like, I hear people talk about how their partners do or don't come along on this journey with them. He very much has. So, you know, now when I make a mistake, that's an expensive mistake for us, or an inconvenient. It's like, "There's Megan Anna's ADHD." Like, whereas before, it would invoke, like, maybe a more grumpy internal narrative for him.

And so, what was the question?

PATRICK CASALE: It wasn't planned or staged, by the way. The question was, post-ADHD discovery, what was it like for you knowing that you are already autistic? And then, it's like, it is often times in reverse, right? For a lot of people to find out they're ADHD first. And then, a couple years down the road, autistic burnout, boom. And here we are.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I also felt like it kind of made me one of the cool kids. So, I was like, "Ooh, I have like, this cool thing versus just this embarrassing autism thing." And I realized, like, I'm not saying autism is embarrassing, obviously, but that was part of my internal experience, because I was still kind of in the early stages of the ableism.

And for some reason, and again, and I don't know where this comes from. And I'm not saying it's a right reaction. It just was my reaction. Somehow, ADHD felt edgier. It felt cooler to be ADHD than autistic. Not that ADHD is cool. I'm not saying that. It's just for some reason it was almost like this kind of balances out my autism in a way that makes it… Like, I'd feel more comfortable talking about being ADHD than autistic, initially.

I don't know, do they feel different to you? Like-

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Does that makes sense when I say, like, I felt like one of the cool… Like, it's [CROSSTALK 00:07:42].

PATRICK CASALE: No, I actually think it does, because I think how society frames both neurotypes is quite different. And I'm not talking about, like, the advocacy spaces and the neurodivergent community as society, I mean, like, as a whole. And I think that a lot of maybe the neurotypical population of human beings is like, looks at ADHD and autism very differently. And I think that's where our own internalized ableism comes from, is framed by living in an ableist society.

So, I think when we frame ADHD, a lot of the messaging is, like, cool, artsy, creative, different, unique, maybe a little flighty. Maybe they get distracted, the stupid squirrel memes. And, like, some of that stuff. But I think there's this association of like, but thinking outside the box, and being really creative, and doing all these fun things, and being more spontaneous. So, I understand what you mean when you say one of the cool kids.

I also think that for me, like I've said before on this podcast, many times, I was not rattled by my ADHD discovery at all. Like, I don't even think it like registered to me. I think the only thing that helped me in those moments was because during that time, as I referenced in one of the episodes that we've just recorded, my ADHD discovery came out of struggles in my marriage and my relationship. Because we were just married. We got married very quickly. We got engaged in three months of knowing each other. We got married the same exact year. And I was like so certain.

And then, all of a sudden, life changes very quickly. And the permanency becomes frightening, in a way, at least it did for me. And it felt like the walls were kind of closing in. And I just kept having romanticism about life being different, whether that was in a different state, in a different career, with a different person. I just could not get this idealism out of my head of like, the grass is always greener, right?

Once I found out I was ADHD, it just kind of clicked in as if, like, okay, all of that stuff now makes sense. And I remember going to an ADHD therapist with my wife at the time, not my wife at the time, because she's still my wife, going to therapy at the time with my wife, and having that person explain ADHD to her. And she was just like, "Oh." Like, it was very comforting for her to hear that stuff of like, "This is why Patrick does some of the things that he does."

But in my mind, it was almost like an excuse or like a crutch to lean on in a way of like, "Yeah, I can make that behavior permissible because I'm ADHD." And so many white boys and people are ADHD.

And I also had the shocking misconception that you could not become ADHD or diagnosed ADHD as an adult, because in my grad school program, we did not talk about ADHD or autism at all.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, adult ADHD and autism is so rarely covered in graduate programs. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I-

PATRICK CASALE: I think the only time I heard these terms was, like, you might see some autistic children or ADHD children in your practice. And that was it. It was like…

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Anyway, sorry.

MEGAN NEFF: Which is wild when we look at the numbers of how many undiagnosed ADHD and autistic people are in mental health treatment. Like, it should be core to all training programs, because, like one study, we can't globalize it, one in five people seeking psychiatric care in this one study in Sweden were autistic. Most did not know it. So, it's like that should be part of all clinical training. Anyway, so that's a different conversation that we should perhaps have at some point.

I, first of all, did not know that about your relationship history. Interestingly, Luke and I have a very similar history, slightly different in that I actually met him when I was 16, so we'd known each other a long time, and had kind of tried to date at one point. But we started dating long-distance and got engaged within three months, and got married that same year. And then, had a really rough first year of marriage. Like, it's kind of amazing to me that we didn't divorce in that first year.

PATRICK CASALE: Same.

MEGAN NEFF: And partly, it was him adjusting to my clutter and chaos, which I am much more cluttery and chaos than you are. And then, it was the romanctification. Oh, and I had PTSD at the time, but I didn't know it, so that was a fun mix to add to. And I was 24. I was so young. Anyways, I had a very similar first year of marriage. So, that's interesting.

The other thought I had, we talked about relationships a lot in the last episode, but actually, I would say relationships is also the thing I went back to with the ADHD lens. It's like, oh, that makes so much sense. Like, the grass is always greener. The getting bored in relationships. And then, like, assuming the response is like a different partner or a different context.

Actually, I would say, I think, the hardest thing in our marriage has been, I don't know that I agree with this, maybe I do. I think the way it would be named is like my inability to be content. And my spouse is someone for whom, like, pleasing the people around him is really, really important. And so, you put that with someone who just is kind of existentially restless, and the grass is always greener. And that's a really hard dynamic.

And so, that struggle to be content in relationships, I think a lot of ADHDers struggle with that. And I don't think it's talked about enough, frankly, because it can bring on some shame, and, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: That's [CROSSTALK 00:13:53].

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And I can relate so much. And God, if Arielle or Luke listen to this, you know, we love you all. But I know that for so long, like, I look back at relationships through the ADHD lens too, and I look at what you're saying, grass is greener. Maybe there's a better partner out there, a better whatever. But I also think about like, the spontaneity, and the impulsivity that came alongside the ADHD in relationships. Like, let's just go on a trip. Let's go, like, book this thing.

I remember being in college, broke as hell, like, book a trip to Ireland for my former, like, college girlfriend for she and I for like, four or five days. Or, like, impulsively, book a cruise for the same girlfriend in that span of time that we dated, like, without having the money, without like, thinking through the parts that needed to, like, be in place to make this a successful experience for both of us.

And I would blame it on bipolar, too, which was my former diagnosis, or my gambling addiction coinciding with like, the impulsivity part of like this is why I'm doing these things. This is why I continue to like self-destruct in these ways. And so, ADHD, for me was a lot of self-destruction and a lot of impulsivity and just spontaneous behavior.

Fast forwarding till now, you know, I think it took Arielle adjusting to my neurodivergence in a lot of ways to make this relationship work, because she has always been consistent. And that, for me, at first, as an ADHDer, got really boring really quickly. And I was like, "This relationship is fucking boring. I can't do this for the rest of my life."

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And now, like, "Oh my God, what wonderful security and stability that she provides."

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I've used a really similar metaphor where Luke, and I have, where, like, he's like the anchor, and I'm like the waves, and because he is so solid and so consistent. And yeah, it pains me that then part of being the waves, like, that brings, like, I guess I am the one that will name like… Like, it's not just bad being the waves, because you also create, you know, creativity and things. Or you see when things need to change.

But I feel so much grief when like I am the one that's more prone, yeah, to, like, idealize or romanticize, or fantasize about, or to be discontent, while also… Like, this is the mind fuck is to be discontent with the fact he's the anchor, while also absolutely needing him to be the anchor.

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, that is spot on. And that's painful, too. It's that exact sentiment of like the discontentment that that person is stable, and consistent, and safe, and untethered, or very tethered, is what I should say, not untethered, while you simultaneously are like maybe chaotic and in these experiences, and cause some disruptions, and then get frustrated that they remain unstable.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it's not a fair position for the anchor to be in.

PATRICK CASALE: No, no.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: No. But I can really, really relate to that. And I think a lot of people listening will relate to that.

MEGAN NEFF: And I think, you know, Esther Perel does such a good job talking about this of how, in modern marriage, we expect our spouses to be the village, which isn't just not how it used to work. So, it's like, if you are married to an anchor, where do you get your aliveness? Like, beyond that. And that we need to move beyond looking to get everything from one person, because like, no marriage can hold that. And that'll look different. Like, for you, I think you get it through travel and through having different experiences. I think there's a reason that polyamorous setups is way more common in neurodivergent partnerships.

So, I'm going to ask for permission to potentially edit this out, because I would like to ask and make sure my spouse is comfortable with me talking about this. But that's actually been one of the things that we've navigated.

So, we got married, coming in straight out of evangelicalism. And then, when we left Christianity, and I started, like, thinking more constructively about, like, what is this whole marriage thing? And, like, I was, like, why is monogamy assumed? Like, this setup actually makes very little sense to me.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

MEGAN NEFF: And so, one of the conversations we've had throughout the years, and one that I feel guilt on, which goes back to ADHD, is where I would say I'm more, like, naturally polyamorous in the sense that I… And I think it's part of the like ADHD, you're deeply present wherever you are. So, I feel like I can experience different attachments without them feeling like they take away from other attachments, if that makes sense. Because wherever I am, I'm, like, that's where I am. But my spouse is very monogamous. And not for, like, we've spent a lot of time talking about it, not for religious reason reasons, just that's what works for his attachment structure.

And so, I think that's also an interesting lens, just in the sense that I think a lot of ADHDers, polyamory probably does work well when you're doing it, you know, with a lot of intention, which I think most polyamorous relationships are doing it with a lot of communication and thoughtfulness, or just navigating, like, being in partnerships, where you want different structures to your commitment, or your marriage. And maybe that gets revisited as part of the post-diagnosis is, can we revisit the structure of this container that we, you know, at whatever age you know, for us, we were 24 and 26 when we agreed to this relationship structure.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, absolutely. I'm trying to think August 29th will be 11 years for Arielle and I. And I'm about turned 39, so I was 28. I didn't know. You know, dating, getting engaged in three months would probably be a very ADHD thing. Getting married that same year. We never even had big conversations in that year. What do we want out of life? I don't even know if I knew the answer to that. Like, and then throughout our marriage, we've had some small rupture where, like, I've been like "I want to move to Europe" early on in our marriage, not now, like present day. I still want to move to Europe, different circumstances.

But then, I was just like, "I want to do it this year. Like, I want to just go. And why can't we do this together?" And she's like, "Because I have a full-time job and I value my career. And I don't want to move to Europe." These are things we probably should have talked about before we got married.

And for me, it was just like, "What do you mean you don't want to, like, just uproot your entire life and move to a different country where you don't know any single human? Like, that sounds amazing, doesn't it?"

So, you know, I think it's work. The relationship itself has sustained in ways where, like understanding each other's needs, super vital in any relationship, but cross-neurotype partnerships, especially, like understanding the dynamics, and the communication styles, and the processing styles. Like, everything is so, so crucial. And I could not be more grateful to have the partner that I have, who, like, sees 10 steps ahead at all times. And how to like best support me and accommodate me.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I think ADHD relationship accommodations, I actually think, can be harder emotionally than autistic relationship accommodations. Like, what I mean by that is, I think it's harder to access compassion. It's like, oh, you left the keys in the car and the car got stolen, right? Like, how the hell did you, like, forget that? And it's not fully formed in my head, but I think there's more, like, character-based, like, if you love me or for you cared, you would have remembered. Or you have a wandering eye, or like, you always want us to move, you're not content.

Like, I just think, partly, it's harder on the partner, whereas I think some of the autistic accommodations, they bring a more like, vulnerable, soft, like, okay, I can see you're overstimulated, or I see unique routine versus… Is what I'm saying making…

PATRICK CASALE: Makes 100% sense, like associating a lot of ADHD struggles and traits with almost character flaws or like [CROSSTALK 00:24:34]-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: …like, and the age-old, you're just too lazy, or you're too forgetful, or, how, if this was important, you would have remembered. Like, that feels very shame-inducing, too.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and the domestic stuff too, of like how domestic stuff is divided-

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

MEGAN NEFF: And perhaps, unequally, like that can bring up more emotionality around accommodations there, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, like, you work from home all day. And you can spend all of this time being creative when you're excited about something, but you haven't unloaded the dishwasher in three weeks, you haven't put the laundry away. Well, how do you just keep stepping over piles of whatever?

Like, I think that could be so shame-inducing. And could really create that conflict domestically, if you do not have partners who understand executive functioning, who don't understand struggles with time perception, who don't understand, like, struggles with attention and distractibility. But that takes a lot of fucking work. And cross-neurotype partnerships are hard. And they're hard for a reason. I mean, cross-neurotype friendships are hard. And it is so complex.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, so looking back through the lens of partnership, friendship, etc., what else comes to mind for post-discovery for your ADHD?

MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I think a lot of it was that, like, I can't adult, which, again, was really confusing because of that, like, spiky profile experience of some ways I felt really competent, but other ways I felt really, really incompetent. But, yeah, I had those character-based labels for it.

So, I think that was huge, realizing, like, there is a legitimate reason why things that I've been telling myself should be easy are really, really hard for me. So, that was a big one.

PATRICK CASALE: You were in academia at the time when this happened?

MEGAN NEFF: No, I was in private practice at the time. So, I think I'd graduated by the time that ADHD bit became aware. Yeah, I was kind of early Neurodivergent Insights days.

PATRICK CASALE: Got you.

MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, yeah. Also, just mistakes, like when I look back and there's been some, like, mistakes I've made that have kind of had big impact, where it's just me missing a detail. I think those I had a whole new lens on, yeah.

But I would say, like, such a big one was really that romantification, idealization, always itching to, like, create a different experience than the experience than the experience I was living, and then how that's kind of both impacted me, but then also my relationships and my contentment. I think that's been a really, really big one.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I can relate. And that still is a big one for me. I mean, it hasn't gone away, despite learning more about myself. Like, I have that intense romantification of that perfect, picturesque world where everything is wonderful, and just right, and a better environment, and more relaxing, and more enjoyable. Like, I think about it all the time.

And it takes so much to like say, you're allowed to dream like this. And also, we can't act on every single time that you have this idea. Because one thing that I look back on a lot is the ADHD tax, specifically, that's impacted me financially, where I have made some decisions, whether it be impulsively, whether I forgot a detail, whether it was truly just romanticism and idealism. And then, all of a sudden, it lost its like wonder.

And I have spent so much money and have experienced so much shame around having to cancel, bail on things, not even say anything, because I felt so bad that I couldn't do the thing that I signed up for. And that, for me, is a lens that I have really re-examined a lot through.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one has been big for me, too, as well. I would also say, kind of in a similar bucket, my relationship to alcohol historically. And basically, it's interesting, before I knew about ADHD, I always joke like I have a broken dopamine system, like, or broken dopamine faucet. Like, if you turn the dopamine faucet on, like it's not going off. Like, it's just really hard to put it off.

And I'd been saying that for years, and I had a lot of shame around how come, like, I have all of these values that I feel very strongly on, but how come, as soon as you put me in something that gives me dopamine, like it feels like I can become very value and consistent very quickly?

And so, I when I think back to my relationship, I would say my ability to regulate things that give me pleasure that's always been hard for me. And I've always had so much shame on it, for sure, because of my values. And I would say that more than autism, that feels like an ADHD thing when I look back at my life. And when I look at my context, I'm like, "Yeah, that makes sense." Yeah. So, that's been a huge one.

PATRICK CASALE: That is huge. And I can relate again. And I think that the ability to navigate, like, how to regulate your dopamine intake, yeah, especially, if you're getting those, like, quick bursts of it, and it feels good in whatever way.

And I look at like, gambling through an ADHD lens all the time, because I'm like, how much of this? And I'll never know, chicken or egg situation, in this regard, there's just not enough research on addiction. But what I mean is addiction and ADHD, addiction and autism, not just addiction. I'll never know, was my gambling undiagnosed ADHD and compounded life trauma, whatever else is happening? Was it addiction plus ADHD? Did ADHD drive the addiction? Did addiction, like, exacerbate the ADHD traits? I don't know.

All I know is that ADHD and gambling addiction are not a good mix. And all I know is that the amount of dopamine that exists in gambling in short bursts of risk-taking it is a dangerous fucking combination. And that, for me, is something I replay a lot of, like, a lot of those experiences and decisions that I made in that window and iteration of my life.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Patrick, the energy of this conversation feels so different than the autism episode, which you and I literally just recorded. And I know I'm sitting with, like, what feels like a like, kind of a blanket of shame. And we've also been talking about, like, why don't we talk about ADHD much? And, yeah, I have so much more shame around, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I can feel it, yeah. I can sense it, for me, for sure. I do have a lot of shame around ADHD related decisions, and experiences, and choices that I have made in my entire life, not just in the last, you know, however many years. And then you add in the RSD factor, and wow, fucking whirlwind.

But I don't know, it's almost as if we, like, gravitate, okay, hopefully, this makes sense, almost as if we gravitate towards our autistic parts, or conversations, or identification, as if it's the anchor, in your example of an anchor and the waves that are crashing. And we gravitate towards the anchor because that is our safety, and our consistency, and our stability. And, sorry, go ahead.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, I was just going to say to add to that there, and I don't mean this in a like, autism in its core self, and ADHD isn't. But I think the autistic experience it's really common where, like, our values are our identity, right? That's an idea that's out there. I think ADHD, what is hard about it is it can make it hard to live in value-consistent ways. And so, that's why it's not… I hadn't made this connection before, but that's part of why it doesn't feel as core to my identity is because of some of the ADHD traits. Those are actually the things that, yeah, can make it hard to live congruently to who I see myself to be, to who I want to be. And so, it is like on an identity experience, there's some almost disconnect there.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And that's why I always feel like these two neurotypes, when, if you are, in fact, an AuDHDer, are at war with one another, because the inconsistencies in some of the ways that our neurology is made up, and the things that are really important to each, are not the same.

MEGAN NEFF: I mean, think about that mind fuck for a second, right? Autism, and this won't be every autistic person's experience, but autism is, I don't have values. I am my values, right? And so, that's core to who identity is. ADHD can make it harder to live according to those values. So, my values matter more from my experience of identity and self, and at times, I struggle more to live consistently by those. Like, that's a mind fuck.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, and there's no wonder for me, at least, I can't speak for everybody. Can't even speak for your experience in this, that sometimes my autistic parts hate my ADHD parts. Like, there's like anger, like such anger and frustration. Because I'm just like, "Dude, I'm just trying to exist here. I'm just trying to get through the damn day without, like, being too overwhelmed one way or another." That's all I want. And then, it just feels like they are just constantly playing this intense, like, tug of war back and forth.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, it's kind of like what we described a moment ago in our relationships, but with ourselves. Like, yeah, if there's going to be some push and pull and resentment of, like, waves, can you just stop waving for a minute? I'm getting tired of holding us up.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: And the waves might be like, "Why do you have to be such a stickler? Like, come have fun with me. Come play with me."

PATRICK CASALE: Or they're like, "This is what we do because we're waves. And like, that's what we're designed to do."

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: This conversation is fascinating to me, and that's what led me to autism discovery was, I'm actually just looking at my Bourdain painting in the background, and, like, watching the Roadrunner movie, of like, watching how… And there's no public information on this, so I just want to name that. Like, I don't know that he was ADHD, but I feel it in my soul. And like that push/pull that he talks about in this movie, and all of his friends, and everyone that's been around him was like he was so unsatisfied and restless all the time, always needing to be on the go to the next thing. And yet, there was this force that was like, pulling him back home to safety and stability because he was so uncomfortable out in the world. And I was just like, I have never experienced something so viscerally in my life. And I was just like, "Wow. Okay." So, that's kind of been my experiences, is very similar to that.

MEGAN NEFF: I haven't heard that before. That feels really powerful when you said that. Like, that captures, I feel like a lot of the things we talk about here, that like existential dread, the restlessness that plagues us, that, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: But, yeah, this conversation feels different. It's interesting to notate and pay attention to. It feels so much heavier.

MEGAN NEFF: It does. Which is funny. We started the episode with, I was like, "ADHD, it's part of being the cool kids." And it's like, damn, actually.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: There's a lot of heaviness here. There's a lot of shame. And I've actually been saying this for the last year, because I did a series last October on ADHD, and part of writing about, I was like, I have a lot more internalized ableism to work through around my ADHD than my autism. And I think I helped name something of that today, which is because there's so much more shame.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

MEGAN NEFF: And it's also hard to, like, differentiate it, right? Like, what is like, okay, well, that's undiagnosed ADHD, and what is like, well, that's just me being a shit person?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: And it's the whole… Like, I think we got a question about this. Like, are you just using this label to, like, get off the hook, right? That is hard to untangle.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. If we're going to say like, ADHD and autism, AuDHD, these are identities. It's really hard to untangle and unpack. Like, why did I do that thing? Was it because of ADHD or autism? Was it because I just make bad decisions sometimes? Was it because I'm a bad person in certain contexts? Like, and I think that's humanness, right? Like, that is the complexity of humanness.

And, you know, it'd be really easy for me to look back at my gambling addiction days and be like, "I gambled and made a lot of bad choices that are not congruent with my values because of my ADHD." But in reality, it's like you did that because you were a gambling addict. Like, you were in active addiction, so the things that you did were fueled by active addiction. Now, I don't think that ADHD didn't play a part, but…

MEGAN NEFF: But it's not as simple as saying that was my ADHD. It's like undiagnosed, unsupported ADHD, obviously, made you more vulnerable toward addiction. And then, when you've got complex ADHD and addiction, that's going to drive things.

And I think that is like, when can we have self-compassion for like, well, yeah, undiagnosed ADHD, it makes sense. I was kind of more vulnerable for X, Y, Z. How do we have self-compassion for ourselves while also taking accountability? Like, taking accountability for those we've hurt, taking accountability for our actions, that does require, you know, a bit of paradoxical thinking or duality, as you like to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, exactly. So, it's one of those things that I think is just lifelong, and you just go through, like, different iterations and versions of yourself as you learn more, and uncover more, and discover more, and deconstruct more. And like, I don't know what iteration is next for both of us in the next five years, but I imagine it looks very different than the last five years.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I have a couple itchy thoughts, and they'll just be itchy.

PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.

MEGAN NEFF: But I realize we're kind of at a wrap-up zone. I've had lots of people like say things like, if I'd known about the ADHD I think my marriage would have lasted. And I think there is some research that suggests ADHDers get divorced at higher rates. And we've been talking about relationships a lot, and like shame around that. There's also research around ADHDers be more likely to cheat.

And again, I feel like that's probably not something we like to highlight, because, well, what am I trying to say? I think we're often correcting kind of pathologized versions of ADHD and autism. So, it can be hard to talk about, like, the harder parts of the ADHD or autistic experience, like harder to talk about the fact we're more prone to cheat or have affairs. But that is part of the ADHD experience, which I think makes sense.

And I feel like that's important to name too, as people are listening to this episode, and we're talking about shame, and we're talking about the ways it can show up, is that that is an experience that is more common for ADHDers. And I don't know that's talked about enough.

PATRICK CASALE: No, probably not. I mean, we tend to shy away from things that feel taboo in society, right? So, the acknowledgement of fact that okay, if there's a higher correlation here, does that make me a worse person or? And I don't think the answer is yes. I think when we add in impulsivity, and dopamine seeking, and sometimes recklessness, like-

MEGAN NEFF: And grass is always greener, and yeah, novelty seeking, yeah, it's like, okay, yeah, that makes sense, yeah, yeah.

So, I think with ADHD, yeah, there's correlations with things like addiction, like cheating. Like, things that land us in jail, that are harder to talk about. And so, I think those are the things that often live behind closed doors, and then we have shame on. And then, we're like, why am I the only one struggling with this? And so, I think we can be deeply affirming around the ADHD identity and talk honestly about the fact that there's increased risk and vulnerability to things that might not be value consistent, or things that bring on shame, or just things that like, yeah, we don't want to be part of our lives, but we struggle to have them out of our lives.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really well said. Damn, you wrapped us up twice today really well. First episode, great. Final thoughts. This episode, great. Final thoughts. No, I agree with you. I don't have anything to add to that. I appreciate that messaging, because maybe that can offer some like self-compassion and some grace towards some of this stuff. Because it sounds like you and I both feel a bit more shameful about our ADHD parts and experiences. And I'm sure that we are not the only two people in the world who feel that way.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I certainly don't think so. So, I hope people who are listening perhaps can feel a little bit less alone in their shame if this hit on topics they have felt some shame on.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. And thank you for continuing to listen to us on all the platforms and YouTube. And we will see you next week. Bye.