Episode 120 (Season 3): Burnout City: Boundaries, Self-Advocacy, and Accommodations
Aug 21, 2025
Show Notes
Advocating for your needs and setting boundaries as a neurodivergent person can be incredibly challenging—especially in environments that don’t always understand or prioritize accommodations for invisible disabilities. Navigating burnout and building a life that supports your well-being is not just about self-care; it’s about learning how to advocate for yourself in ways that are sustainable and affirming.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the nuanced process of seeking and setting up accommodations, practicing self-advocacy, and developing boundaries to prevent or recover from burnout. They explore both the practical strategies and deeper psychological hurdles involved—like the difficulty of taking your own needs seriously, the risk and complexity of self-disclosure, and the tricky transition away from people-pleasing patterns. They also discuss useful resources, including boundary scripts, strategies for partial self-disclosure, and the importance of community support, all woven together with personal anecdotes and real-life examples.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover pragmatic tools and resources for pursuing both formal and self-created accommodations in work, education, and personal life—including boundary scripts and practical self-disclosure tips tailored for neurodivergent needs.
- Gain a deeper understanding of the emotional complexities that make self-advocacy and boundary-setting so hard, especially for those who have long relied on people-pleasing or have experienced invalidation and isolation.
- Hear candid, relatable stories from two AuDHD clinicians that not only validate the challenges of living in a neurotypical world, but also offer hope, humor, and actionable support for building a burnout-resilient life.
If you’ve ever struggled to honor your needs or felt overwhelmed by the thought of advocating for yourself, this episode breaks down the barriers with compassion, lived experience, and expert guidance. Get real-world insights and encouragement to take your needs seriously and begin building a life that supports your neurodivergent identity.
Resources
- Neurodivergent Insights Autistic Masking Workbook: neurodivergentinsights.com/autistic-masking
- Neurodivergent Insights Resource on Autistic Burnout: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
- The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
- Check out Neurodivergent Insights’ Library of Boundary Scripts (free resource)
- Job Accommodations Network (JAN): askjan.org
Divergent Conversations Podcast Episodes:
- Episode 2: Autistic Burnout (divergentpod.com/2)
- Episode 47: Autistic Burnout (Part 2): A Deep Dive Into The Diversity of Burnout (divergentpod.com/47)
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✨ Neurodivergent Insights Autistic Burnout Resources
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
All right, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. This is our season finale for our Autistic Burnout Hell City. [CROSSTALK 00:01:39]-
MEGAN NEFF: We never properly named… And also, I don't even know if it is autistic burnout specific or just burnout.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I can't remember how we set up the framing for this.
PATRICK CASALE: Episode one feels so long ago.
MEGAN NEFF: It feels so long ago, even though it was like two weeks ago.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, you know, time. So, today, what are we talking about?
MEGAN NEFF: So, because we've been kind of loosely following the structure of the autistic burnout workbook, and so, the final chapter in that which I feel like is an important part of the conversations is things like setting up accommodations, self-advocacy, boundaries, because that is often a huge part of building a life more resilient to burnout is, first of all, like, identifying our needs, but then taking our needs seriously, which is actually hard for a lot of us. And then, either seeking out formal accommodations or building our own accommodations. And then, all of that requires a bit of self-advocacy and often some boundary setting, which, again, is hard for a lot of us, especially if we've adapted to some of our social, like, alienation or isolation by becoming people pleasers.
So, on one hand, this is kind of a like, it can be a pragmatic conversation around, like, how do you pursue accommodations? How do you set boundaries? But it's also a deeply psychological one around what comes up for us when we are, first of all, taking our needs seriously, let alone advocating for them or setting boundaries with people.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's a very nuanced conversation, for sure. And yeah, like you mentioned, not an easy one, typically. If we're thinking about it more pragmatically or kind of following some of the stuff that you've created in your workbook, what are some of more of the pragmatic steps that people can take to start down this journey or this path?
MEGAN NEFF: So, first, with the accommodations piece, and that's going to depend on a person's location, like country. But first, if there are accommodations available for you, seeing what it takes to pursue those.
There are a few resources that I like for inspiration for this. So, like, JAN, which is Job Accommodations Network, they have some really great sort of databases where it's these are ideas of some of the accommodations that employers should provide based on the disability.
And while it is specific to the US, I think it's just great for ideas in general. Like, I like to look through it just to see, like, what are some, perhaps, ideas of accommodations I haven't thought about, you know, even building into my own life. So, there's resources like that.
You know, if we're in education system, typically, we will have access to resources. There's a process to getting those different accommodations. So, there's the formal accommodation route, and yeah, resources like JAN, I think, are really helpful for just even seeing what's available to you.
And then, I think what most of us do. And actually, we see this in workplace studies as well, where the majority of people with invisible disabilities, and this is kind of a sad finding, but found that it was just not really worth it to go through the formal channels, and that most of them were building the accommodations themselves. So, unfortunately, that is the position most people are in where it's, what self-accommodations can I build in or can I advocate for?
So, that could be things like, you know, if someone is in a traditional workplace that has more professional attire, can they advocate for like, "Hey, can I wear a hat with a rim, because it helps, you know, the glare of the overhead lights, it helps reduce that?" Or asking for different sensory accommodations, which then gets right into the self-disclosure. What do we feel comfortable self-disclosing?
Something I talk about a lot is reminding people it doesn't have to be a full self-disclosure. It can be a partial one. So, for example, if you're asking for sensory accommodations, either at work, or even in friendships, or acquaintances, you can say like, "Hey, I've got some sensory sensitivities. Is it okay if we move this conversation over here." Or, "Is it okay if, you know, I wear a room tag because it helps with my sensory sensitivities."
And I think if we're not sure if it's safe to disclose, that's where it's really helpful to kind of test the waters with some of those partial self-disclosures. And it protects our privacy as well.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've talked about before being really kind of like confident and sure in your self-disclosure process, just because it can be met with negative feedback or reaction. And there is risk inherently associated with self-disclosure. So, being really mindful about when, and where, and who you are disclosing to when that you feel comfortable and safe, and supported. Because, you know, it's obviously a very painful experience to not only have your existence or identity minimized or dismissed, but can also be a dangerous one as well, in some instances, as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and I think we're all kind of thinking about that. It's forefront of our minds a bit more because of the attempts at making a registry. And so, yeah, I think it's interesting even how I talk about these things shifts from, like, I used to be so pro like, self-disclosure and invisibility, and now it's like, people are getting nervous about that, and like understandably needing to think about some of this stuff differently.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: So, again, that's where partial self-disclosure, especially in this context we're in, can be a really nice alternative. So, in general, I think when thinking about building in accommodations, there's almost like a drill-down equation of like, okay, what is the unmet need here?
And then, if you are needing to involve another human, which we often are, it's, can I pair the disclosure to the unmet need? And like, I don't have to say more than that. So, maybe it's my body really struggles to regulate temperature. Is it okay if we keep our thermostat at this point? So, pairing the disclosure, specifically, with the need that you're asking to be addressed.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, not having to dive in headfirst, so to speak, and say, "Hey, by the way, everyone in the office, I'm autistic." And that may not be a place that feels safe enough to do so. And there could definitely be discrimination that comes up if you do self-disclose, even in the safest of environment. So, I think what you're saying makes so much sense to pair the need with the accommodation and then the disclosure that comes with that as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And then, with the boundary stuff, I guess from the pragmatic part, like, thinking through, there's different kinds of boundaries, right? So, we can have body boundaries, we can have emotional boundaries, we can have financial boundaries. We can have like, content, like topics that are like, you know, topical boundaries, I guess, would be the way of saying that.
And then, this is where I really like script banks. And this is something I've leaned on The Nook a lot for of like, we've gathered some. I'll often ask, like, what are some of your favorite scripts for different scenarios? And then, we've gathered some of those. I actually have a database, so we'll link that here. We have a database that we've put together of different boundary scripts. And some of my favorite ones are around capacity. Like, I wish I could, but I don't have capacity for that right now.
So, I'm someone who needs boundary scripts. Otherwise, I'm going to go off explaining all of the context and explaining more than I probably feel comfortable sharing, or more than I need to share for asking for what I'm asking for. So, I really like boundary scripts with boundaries.
How are boundaries for you? Like, what's your relationship to boundaries, making them? Holding them? Talking about them?
PATRICK CASALE: I like that you asked that question.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm assuming not great.
PATRICK CASALE: Wow, they've gotten better. I think, like-
MEGAN NEFF: Well done.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think they've gotten better. Like, I think prior or pre-discovery, not great at all. Definitely, like, stereotypical people pleaser. Some of that is intertwined with, like, attachment stuff.
And then, post discovery, I've learned more and more about the boundaries that I will set and create with friend groups, with professional relationships. I have boundaries with my technology. Like, putting my phone in a different room starting at 5:00 PM most days, being able to just say no to things that I definitely would have said yes to, and felt an enormous amount of guilt and shame around, or exerted an enormous amount of energy around. Really zooming out, again, going back to our last episode, like zooming out and saying like is… I keep thinking this phrase, is the juice worth the squeeze? And really thinking about that like, because acknowledging that my capacity and energy are often so low and so diminished that I really need to be very strategic.
And I've even done this in my career. You know, like post-second throat surgery, noticing capacity is diminished, eliminating portions of my professional career and identity that were bringing large sums of revenue that I was not able to do anymore. Hard at first, for sure. So glad that they are in place.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you talk about, like, self-doubt and self-worth a lot. And that's where I could imagine setting up those boundaries, especially when you were taking away income streams and things that… I mean, our identities and our careers are often also very interconnected. So, I imagine that when you were making those boundaries, also that was tapping into some of that attachment stuff, as well as self-worth, impostor syndrome, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And I like you, used to give away a lot of my information from people who are asking for it, and spend a lot of time and energy on those conversations, realizing how depleting they were. And instead, now, just like having links to resources or just simply saying, I don't have the capacity to answer that question, has been really life-changing for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: What about you?
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I'll answer that. There's the idea of, like, actually honoring our capacity. That's something that has come up a lot in conversations with the clinicians in The Nook.
PATRICK CASALE: I would say that the way we're batch recording and doing this podcast now are a consequence of boundaries that you set from your acknowledging and honoring your capacity.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that's right. And that was a hard conversation. We talked about that last season.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, we did bump into our stuff, and we worked through it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And I mean, that is a good part of it's like, when we ask for boundaries, we're like, that's our stuff, but like, we also could be activating the other person's stuff, because a boundary can feel like a rejection when replacing it.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And I think a healthy boundary… So, I have a mixed relationship to this word boundary, because I think sometimes in like pop psychology, the way boundaries gets used, or when it gets used, and there's kind of unhealthy dynamics at play, it's almost punishing, or it's like, well, I'm putting a boundary here. And, like, it's more of the like, you're in, or you're out, or I'm going to avoid this hard conversation, because I'm putting a boundary up, versus, I think of, like, really healthy, fruitful boundaries, as this is the container that we live in where we get to relate to one another in a really healthy way.
And so, the boundary is actually protective of the relationship. It is not a who's in who's out? It is this is the distance from which we can relate to one another in the most healthy life giving way for both of us. And so, that kind of boundary I get really excited about.
Also, I think there's other language we can use, like container or framework, that feel a little bit richer than boundary.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we-
PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, go ahead. I was going to say we needed to renegotiate the boundary of our podcast or the framework of it, because it wasn't really working for me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep. And I think when we think about the word boundary, there's often rigidity associated with it. Like, it's this black and white thing. And I think there can be a lot of nuance to it as well, just kind of speaking more to like your pop psychology reference, where it's almost like fashionable or trendy to be like, "I'm just cutting you off out of my life." And it's like that's certainly useful at times, but sometimes we probably require some nuance and conversation about why the boundary is going up or being put into place.
MEGAN NEFF: And is it coming from a like reflective, responsive place or reactionary space? I think, also, it really makes a difference. And that's not to say that going low contact or no contact is not ever beneficial. I think there's certainly times where that is the boundary and the container that needs to exist.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%, totally.
MEGAN NEFF: And yeah, what energy are we putting that from?
PATRICK CASALE: And I think for those of you listening who are like maybe struggling with this concept, especially those of you who find yourself more in people pleasing roles because of necessity or because it was how you survived or adapted, it's really interesting once you start putting boundaries into place, because you're probably going to get reactions from people in your life who are so used to you accommodating them, or saying yes to them, or just genuinely being more open to certain things where it can create conflict.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, especially if it's a new pattern, because we get really used to dynamics and patterns in our relationships. So, whenever someone is either, like, differentiating like, if they're coming from a more, like, enmeshed place with someone and they're differentiating, like, where they get to be a self outside of that relationship, or if they're asserting new boundaries, what tends to happen just because systems like homeostasis, so that's things staying the same, what tends to happen is there's going to be pressure to go back to the old way. And so, I mean, that can look like kind of protests. And that could show up in a lot of different ways, but the initial creating of a new boundary and an existing dynamic is really hard, because there tends to be a lot of pressure and pushback to go back to homeostasis, to go back to the old way of relating to one another?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And this can show up for you in professional settings, if you're typically the person in the office who's taking on extra work all the time, because you feel like that's how your value is shown, or you want to show that you are capable of doing it, and you end up in burnout, and then, all of a sudden, you're like, "I need to put some boundaries in place. I need to set some limits." That can be met with frustration and resistance. And I think it's important to just try to acknowledge how to have these conversations.
And that's why I really love the idea of a script bank, because it takes away some of the emotional charge that can be connected to some of these conversations, and also allow you to not spend as much mental energy and anguish on them.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, because these, like, sentences are ways of wording, it's hard for a lot of our brains to like think through, how do I want to say this? And how do I want to say this in a way that honors the other person and also honors, you know, my capacity? Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, boundaries, accommodations…
MEGAN NEFF: And self-advocacy.
PATRICK CASALE: That piece. You know, it's so fascinating we do these recordings, and then, always in the second one, I'm like, "Where's my brain at?"
Yeah, self-advocacy piece. And I think this is such an important just collection of topics right here. And I really like the way that you structure everything in your workbook, because it makes things really tangible and easily digestible. I think that's really important when it comes to some of these concepts that can elicit some emotional response.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And it took me a while to get to this point, but where I try to kind of always have, like, two feet on two pedals, that's a weird metaphor of, like, pragmatic, like there's pragmatic things, but then, like, also, have an eye on the deeper psychological work that's connected to the pragmatic thing, because whenever we're making any of these changes, there's typically both of those at play.
And we can be working on the pragmatic piece, and then that's going to awaken some of the psychological stuff. And it's like, "Okay, well, I see you. I'll work with you." But they can work together well when we understand that's what we're doing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, very intertwined and interrelated. Do we have enough mental capacity at the moment to think metaphorically about how does any of this stuff fit into our metaphorical city?
MEGAN NEFF: So, in burnout hell, there's just like people coming up to us all the time with ridiculous requests like, "Can you help me move this weekend?" That is my least favorite request.
PATRICK CASALE: And one that I used to say yes to all the time.
MEGAN NEFF: I would say yes. And okay, this sounds really privileged, and it is privilege. I'd also, in my head, be saying like, "You know, you can hire people for that."
PATRICK CASALE: I would [CROSSTALK 00:21:07]-
MEGAN NEFF: Hire the damn movers.
PATRICK CASALE: …and try to, like, find an excuse as to why I didn't have to show up that day, once the day finally got there. Like, fake an illness, or an injury, or something like that.
MEGAN NEFF: Because this is a dynamic, and that was present in my family, like siblings would do the like, ask for help. And to be fair, like, they would be in a position to hire movers.
And then, Luke and I always do the like, hire movers, because we're both very hyper independent, and so that request, specifically. But I also realize, like, that's a beautiful thing when people are in interdependent communities, and then, you don't have to pay for it. But also, like, more bodies, and moving. Okay, that's a sidetrack.
PATRICK CASALE: Also, people would be coming up to you. You'd be just like, on your way, minding your own business. All of a sudden, you'd be approached by five to six different human beings, and entities, and question, question, question, question.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so you'd be like, helping neighbors move houses every single day, unless you got really good at boundaries. Your body would be very sore. Or also-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:22:14]-
MEGAN NEFF: And they'd be asking things like that they could easily Google. And they tap you on the show. They'd be like, "Excuse me, excuse me, I have a question." And then, they ask you something that's like so Googleable. But you're getting that all the time.
PATRICK CASALE: That is actually like, not only is that my life, it is my idea of hell. If you all saw the behind-the-scenes of the email request that I get sometimes, or the DM request where I am like, and I want to be petty and send back like a gif, right? Of like, it's worth a Google or something like that. And, okay, and that becomes a situation boundary-related, where it's like, do I answer this very simplistic question to just clear it off the board, or do I set a boundary so that this does not become an expectation in this dynamic? It's a challenge.
MEGAN NEFF: That'd be kind of sassy, but it'd be interesting if in some like auto email responders it was almost like a reflection back of like, can you answer this by Google, or can you answer this by… But no, I think that's a little bit too sassy. And also, that's part of the autistic experience, right? Is you don't always know what's appropriate to ask or not. And so-
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, 100%.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, that would be a part of it, and it would be non-stop. Like, this is like-
MEGAN NEFF: It would be non-stop, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …just ping, ping, ping, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And it'd be people tapping you on the shoulder, "Excuse me." And you have a device in your phone that you're not allowed to put down, that is also the notifications are just coming in with these similar requests. So, you're actually getting them in two different, like, cognitive mediums, because you're getting them auditory and you're visually seeing different notifications coming in.
PATRICK CASALE: You are actually creating hell for me. Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: This is hell for me too. This is my nightmare.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I've talked about this on here, but part of my OCD is like, I have to clear notifications. I can't have them on my phone. But I do feel this urge that I have to respond because of read receipts. Like, if people can see that you have read their messages, I am always just like-
MEGAN NEFF: No, you can turn that off, right?
PATRICK CASALE: On all platforms?
MEGAN NEFF: I don't know about all platforms. So, like on WhatsApp, you could turn it off on Messenger. You're stuck in Android. I don't understand Androids. I don't know what's available to you there.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's just hell. I just want to name that. Okay, so that's happening. You're getting both of those types of alerts and communication. What else is happening when it's like, oh, you on a daily basis have to go up on stage in front of everybody, announce to the world that you're autistic, and everyone in the audience just tells you that you're not, for one reason or another.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh. Or it's like a focus group where you're sitting in the hot seat and like, people are just going around telling you all the reasons you're not autistic.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I don't have to, like, try to defend why you are [CROSSTALK 00:25:27]-
MEGAN NEFF: You have to air your dirty laundry, like your most painful, traumatic moments, to prove your autism.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Okay, that's on there, yep.
MEGAN NEFF: And your ADHD. So, I'd have to, like, show photos of my moldy coffee mugs. I'd have to prove how gross I am to prove my ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, my God. You know, there's so many, like, good social media content pieces you could make, A Day in the Life of Neurodivergent Insights. And then, like…
MEGAN NEFF: You know I've gotten over my shame when I make that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, if that ever shows up publicly, I'm going to be like cheering. Okay, so that's happening. I mean, this sounds horrible. [CROSSTALK 00:26:12]-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, we've done boundaries-
PATRICK CASALE: …a medical provider or a mental health provider, and you're also having similar conversations, but all of your needs are just getting dismissed constantly. You just have anxiety, and you just need to do meditation and mindfulness.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: That's the prescription.
MEGAN NEFF: And you need to get off TikTok and stop learning about autism, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I think we must have talked about accommodations in one of our early episodes, because we talked about, in the city, the line to get accommodations are really, really long, and in the other city, you've got these, like, quiet little nests. So, we must have touched on accommodations.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I think we touched upon it when we were, like, first imagining this hellscape. Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, this is getting really stressful, so let's flip it. What is a monotropic manor? How do people relate in regards to boundaries with one another? There's like a lot of consent language. Like, do you have capacity?
I actually appreciate this about you, Patrick. If you have something kind of hard you want to share, you will ask me, like, "Do you have capacity to hear me?" I don't know if you'll say the word vent, but like, "… to hear me, like, talk about a hard thing." And then, I pretty much always say yes.
And I noticed how much I appreciate that. Like, my nervous system appreciates it, because I'm also like, "Okay, I'm going to intake some negative emotion." And I'm so much more resourced and prepared to take in whatever you're about to share, because you've asked for that consent.
PATRICK CASALE: Thanks. So, that would be a thing that would just be standard across the board, people would just ask, do you have the capacity at the moment? And it would just be a known thing that if you said no, there would be no reaction. There would be no negativity towards that reaction. It would just be neutrality. It would actually be positivity. Like, good for you for setting that boundary.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, there'd be a lot of positive reinforcement of boundary setting. So, like, you'd feel like a little dopamine and endorphin boost when you do that, because it's like, oh, I did the norm. That is the norm in the city.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. So, we would have consent language, especially around capacity, and demand, and responsiveness, for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: There'd be robots to move, so no one ever asked help from moving, because the robots do it.
PATRICK CASALE: This is really something that you have an experience with. I'm like, "Yeah, okay." So, I mean, we already have the answers at the touch of our fingertips, but people would not ask questions that could be easily Googleable. Like, what is the weather in Edinburgh, Scotland, in July, you know, comes to forefront of my mind for some reason. So, that would just be. You would just have that knowledge at all times. You would never have to ask anybody.
I think we would have, like, maybe very sensory-specific quadrants of this monotropic manor where, you know, if you needed certain sensory input or you needed less sensory input, you would have specific areas where you could get more or less of that at any time. Maybe these were color coded too.
MEGAN NEFF: They would definitely would be color-coded.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I would appreciate that.
PATRICK CASALE: So, you got those.
MEGAN NEFF: So, there's the environments. Like, it's easier. You can just kind of move more flexibly to an environment that matches your need.
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. [CROSSTALK 00:29:51].
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:29:51]. Yeah. Because right now, what a lot of us do, like, I think about when I go in public, it's like, okay, the hat, the sunglasses, the noise-canceling headphones. It's like we're accommodating our bodies to fit into environments that don't match, but in monotropic manor, we're able to flexibly move into environments that match us a bit more. So, it's less of like let me bubble up my body, and more about let me go find the environment that matches my body's needs right now.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it would feel like very free and fluid, opposed to, like, all of the mental and physical preparation.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yes.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, how do we create this city and exist in it?
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I think parts of it feel a little sci-fi. So, maybe after we write this book, we co-write a book together that's like sci-fi, Monotropic Manor.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, it sounds wonderful.
MEGAN NEFF: It sounds so lovely.
PATRICK CASALE: The only book that we can write now. What else would be there? We've talked so much about the sensory piece. I'm trying to think of, like, since this is our final episode of this season, like doing all the check boxes in my brain, of like, what have we talked about and included in this?
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I just had an image pop in my head of that there'd be, like, a really beautiful nature area. Because when we're talking about moving between environments, and we haven't talked about nature much, but I think nature is something that, I think, it's soothing for all nervous systems. But I feel like for autistic systems, specifically, that are, like, hyper sensitive, it's really replenishing. Like, I think of being out in nature as that feels like the kind of ideal sensory detox. And so, I feel like there'd be access to a lot of nature, a lot of water. Like, I find sitting next to bodies of water so soothing. So, that would be a part of this city that we haven't mentioned yet.
PATRICK CASALE: Nature, wildlife, no snakes. There'll be no snakes.
MEGAN NEFF: No snakes.
PATRICK CASALE: I never have to look down at my feet to wonder if I'm going to step on one. There would be shady spots. There would be sunny spots. It would just be your preference. You could be sitting next to each other like we are right now, and you could tell by our offices how different the lighting is, although it's very dark here and storming.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and I actually think we'd have these little bubbles that like bubble around us, and we get to control the lighting and the temperature. So, for example, we could be sitting next to each other. And it's like an invisible bubble. So, it kind of dims it or not. So, it's not like, doesn't feel confining. But in this bubble, we have complete control over our temperature and like, how dim or light it is.
So, yeah, because you and I have very different needs. So, if we were sitting together, one of us would typically be dysregulated unless we had our bubbles on.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Sounds wonderful. I would say that-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:33:06].
PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: If you've listened to this entire season to just be, like, making notes, whether mental or actually, like, you know, handwritten or digital notes about the things that you need more of and want more of, and the things you need less and want less of, in terms of how to support your system through burnout, because a lot of what we've touched upon, you know, I know this is like sci-fi perfect existence, right? Which we know, unfortunately, is not realistic, but there are components that we can build in, and implement, and access more of, and I think it's important to really focus on that stuff.
MEGAN NEFF: It makes me think about the importance or the role of fantasy. And we've talked about this on other podcasts, how I think both of us escape to fantasy a lot. And that's something I actually used to feel a lot of guilt on until I started thinking about fantasy differently. Of like, what am I psychologically trying to work out here? What am I tapping into? Like, what of my unconscious desires am I tapping into?
And then, I started, like, metabolizing my fantasies differently. And I'm actually sitting here getting curious, what was it about this topic that made you and I need to, or want to build a fantasy world, to be able to talk about it? Like, did it help us metabolize something that was hard? Like, yeah, do you have any thoughts about that, of, why did this metaphorical fantasy that we've co-created, why do you think we did that? What do you think was the function of that for us?
PATRICK CASALE: I've talked so much in general about, like, how fantasy for me is true escapism. And that's why I've loved, like, worlds like Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien's worlds, and even Game of Thrones. Like, places where I know like the weird, eccentric, quirky characters are just a part of the world and there's no differentiation, and the existence seems like so easy. And I think that's where my brain goes when I think about wanting comfort, and wanting regulation, and wanting acceptance, is to escape into fantasy, because the alternative, unfortunately for a lot of us, is really not that way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'm also thinking, and I hadn't made this connection till just now, but like, we took a pause and then we talked about this last season, how it's been really hard for us to both sort out how to show up in the cultural moment we're in and the political context we're in. Yeah, that I also wonder if creating this alternative reality was kind of a response to that, potentially?
PATRICK CASALE: Sure, it is. The cultural zeitgeist at the moment, you know? Yeah, I think just the dissociation away from that and just imagining this, like, perfect world, but really being able to articulate what it's like to live in the other side of it is so important to highlight too. Because, you know, you talk a lot about, like, catastrophic thinking. And I think when we're in burnout, catastrophic thinking, you know, depression, increased anxiety, increased hyper vigilance, like all go hand in hand. And it's so easy to get stuck in it, of like this is my forever.
MEGAN NEFF: And maybe that's part of it, is. And again, we talked about this last time, and I talked about this all the time, how play and humor helps hold the heavy. Maybe we needed to make it funny, and by exaggerating that and making it funny through burnout city, like, because otherwise it would be really, really sad and disempowering to list through all of the things that we navigate as autistic humans and ADHD humans in this world, and could feel really disempowering. And so, there's something also about bringing in some humor and playfulness that maybe helped us hold some of that heavy.
PATRICK CASALE: I agree 100%. I was actually texting a friend before we jumped on this episode because we took the little break today that we've been like recording the season and really laughing at a lot of these experiences. And it just makes so much sense to me to laugh at this stuff, because you're right. If you don't make it playful, if you don't laugh at some of this, it becomes too much. It's too much to, like, bear, and really have to think about in terms of like, moment by moment existence. And even the fact that we could laugh about this together shows that, like, there is some light at the end of the tunnel, even when things feel really dark.
MEGAN NEFF: And it's connecting, right? That then gets back to community of like, when you can find other people that are, like, "Yeah, that's ridiculous." The way, like, society does that, or then, it's like, okay, I'm not alone in this. I'm not too much for feeling this way. It doesn't mean I'm too sensitive. It doesn't mean I'm too weak. There's other people who feel it similarly and who experience similar things.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's humanizing. And so often we have the narrative of like, I'm alone in this, nobody else gets this. I'm the only one.
MEGAN NEFF: And that's when we get into push through narratives, because it's like, I must be weak. I see other people pushing through. I should be able to just push through. And I think, especially, those of us with like level one autism or lower traditional support needs, the variance in our functioning is such a mind trip that it's so easy to get pulled into the like, well, no one else seems to be struggling, so I should be able to just push through. And I think that dynamic of having an invisible disability is so complex because when we do accommodate ourselves, or we do say no, we often are then left with the guilt of that like, well, could I have pushed harder? Should I have done more?
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, absolutely, 100%. You know, the quote that I used the other day keeps coming up into my mind with burnout. And I use the quote, "Sometimes in order to touch the light, you must first embrace the darkness." And for me, that has been really powerful lately. And it's one of those things. It just continues to stay on my mind as I navigate my own burnout journey. So [CROSSTALK 00:40:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: I love the-
PATRICK CASALE: Lord of the Rings.
MEGAN NEFF: Sorry.
PATRICK CASALE: Just in case anyone wants to know where it's from, it's from Rings of Power in the first episode. So, you should watch that show.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. There's similar quotes that have kind of anchored me in life around those concepts. And I do think, and this is actually perhaps a nice way to wrap up this season, is burnout can be generative. Like, if I hadn't had the burnouts I've had, I wouldn't have built what I've built. I wouldn't have the life I have now.
And I think when burnout tells us your life is not working, and then when we have the capacity, and the privilege to reimagine and to build something different, then burnout can be the thing that leads to something much more generative on the other side of it.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Perfect finality to all of this. So, I agree 100%. Similar boat and situation. So, I appreciate just holding space with you and being a part of this together. So, you know, I just want to name that as well. I just really enjoy these conversations.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I do too. I feel similarly. We've talked off air about that of how we're really enjoying batching in the sense that we feel more connected, and I think, playful when we come together. And I've noticed that every time we connect afterwards, my mood is quite a bit better. And so, yeah, I'm really appreciating you, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: As we both hate being perceived, we'll sit here in awkwardness.
MEGAN NEFF: I can distance. I can be like, I'm really appreciating the podcast. Does that feel better? It's a little bit more distance.
PATRICK CASALE: That would be better. No, I'm just kidding. I appreciate it very much. And you know, over the last two and a half years, you've become one of my closest friends, and I just appreciate, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Same. But it's less of a compliment coming from me, because I don't really have friends, whereas you actually do.
PATRICK CASALE: Actually, I think that's a real compliment, because if you're like, I don't really have many friends, and I consider you a very close friend, that feels like very exclusive, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, okay, okay. I'm saying, once you were in, it didn't take much to be one of my closest friend. Because, you know, my circle is very small-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSTALK 00:42:38]-
MEGAN NEFF: But you're right.
PATRICK CASALE: …around a few things.
MEGAN NEFF: But you're right in that, like getting into friendship zone with me, not many people do, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Anyway, we've made it weird per usual. So, here we are wrapping up this eight-part series on burnout. And we hope that it has been helpful and relatable, more importantly.
And we don't know what our next series will be, but season, next season, sorry, Megan Anna's team. But we do know that because we are batching in eight-episode increments, we get to take a break now and figure that out which is a boundary and an accommodation. So, we will see you all on the other side, and make sure to like, download, subscribe, share on all major platforms and YouTube. Goodbye.
