Episode 119 (Season 3): AuDHD Burnout City: How Autistic and ADHD Burnout Collide and Compensate
Aug 14, 2025
Show Notes
ADHD and Autistic burnout can feel like an endless cycle of overwhelm, exhaustion, and frustration—especially for those who live at the intersection of both identities. Many AuDHD individuals struggle to distinguish between ADHD burnout and autistic burnout, but understanding their overlap and unique challenges is crucial to finding compassionate, practical ways to support our mental health.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the unique qualities of AuDHD burnout. They reflect on their own lived experiences, explore the differences and intersections between ADHD and Autistic burnout, discuss why traditional accommodations often fall short, and share insight on how burnout can lead to shame, depression, and executive function collapse. Through vulnerable storytelling, tangible metaphors, and thoughtful humor, they invite listeners to rethink both self-care and community support in navigating burnout.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Gain clarity on the nuances between ADHD burnout, Autistic burnout, and their combined impact for AuDHD burnout—plus learn why academic literature often overlooks the lived reality of those with dual neurotypes.
- Hear relatable and honest discussions about executive dysfunction, shame spirals, depression risk, and the paradox of needing energy to recover from exhaustion, especially within the context of daily life and work.
- Take away practical frameworks and metaphors (including animal critter analogies and the “burnout city”) that offer new language for self-understanding, along with concrete ideas for future-proofing your life against burnout as an AuDHD individual.
If you’re navigating the relentless push-pull of ADHD and Autistic traits, or supporting someone who is, this conversation will help you feel seen and provide tools for building more resilient self-care. Listen now for validation, empathy, and practical insight on surviving—and even softening—the cycle of AuDHD burnout.
Resources
- Neurodivergent Insights Autistic Masking Workbook: neurodivergentinsights.com/autistic-masking
- Neurodivergent Insights Resource on Autistic Burnout: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
- The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
- Check out Neurodivergent Insights’ Library of Boundary Scripts (free resource)
Divergent Conversations Podcast Episodes:
- Episode 2: Autistic Burnout (divergentpod.com/2)
- Episode 47: Autistic Burnout (Part 2): A Deep Dive Into The Diversity of Burnout (divergentpod.com/47)
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✨ Neurodivergent Insights Autistic Burnout Resources
If you’d like to supplement your learning on burnout, you can check out Neurodivergent Insights' resources on burnout. We have articles, an Autistic Burnout course, workbooks, and print books! Visit: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. As we get closer and closer to wrapping up this season on Burnout, we want to do an episode on AuDHD burnout, because it's something that's not talked about a lot. But I know for a lot of us who do identify as AuDHD or autistic and ADHD, it's a real experience.
And I know for me, I go through it. It seems like a daily occurrence, if not like constantly being in this space. So, we wanted to just really start to introduce this conversation.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And outside of AuDHD, I also hear, like, more ADHDers talk about AuDHD burnout. And as far as I'm aware, we don't have the same kind of robust peer-reviewed articles that have looked at AuDHD burnout in the same way that folks have looked at autistic burnout. But it's one of those things we definitely hear from the community as a very real thing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay. I think it could be a helpful or interesting starting point. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. I have a few thoughts, but I'm always intrigued by this. How would you differentiate or would you between AuDHD burnout and autistic burnout? And maybe-
PATRICK CASALE: You know-
MEGAN NEFF: …that's hard when we're both?
PATRICK CASALE: I was going to say it's hard because we are both AuDHD. And I think that makes it hard to differentiate between experience, right? Like, clearly neither of us have just the ADHD side of the experience, or the autistic side of the experience. So, it's really hard for me to say, how can I differentiate? I think I see a lot of ADHDers who are, obviously, experiencing burnout, not just typical burnout, right? Like workplace burnout, stress, etc., because they're experiencing that as well as most of us are. But they are really struggling with their executive functioning. They're struggling with maintaining relationships. They're struggling with maybe their ability to have their attention focused somewhere. They're struggling with some of their own sensory stuff. And you do such a wonderful job of painting the picture of the overlap.
And I think that when you're having all those experiences, it's got to be hard as hell to feel like, how do I get out of this? Or how do I get back to baseline or homeostasis?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The piece you said that I feel like is so core to ADHD burnout, of what I hear, but also experience, is like executive functioning is that just goes kind of out the window. So, like, for getting more appointments than would be baseline.
And that's such a hard one, because that creates so much stress in our bodies, because when our executive functioning struggles then, and I know, for me, everything gets harder because I'm missing things, then I've got shame about it, and so I've got hyper arousal in my body, because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I just, you know, forgot this thing." And so, that becomes such a rugged beast is when the executive functioning part is in burnout and I'm just forgetting things more.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think one thing to highlight, like you said, is the shame component, and how intense that becomes. Because, you know, I know for myself and for a lot of colleagues and friends of mine who are ADHDers, that fear of, like, dropping all the balls or plates that are spinning and how much energy goes into the executive functioning, just to constantly feel like you're coming up short as is, or like people telling you how you are.
And I think once that starts to intensify, that's a hellacious place to be mentally, because it's just constantly this feeling and thought of like, "I can't get anything right or nothing is like working out in this way."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I just had a curiosity, you know, depression is one of, if not the most common co-occurring condition with ADHD. And I'm curious, you know, we've talked a lot about the autistic burnout to depression pathway, but I would suspect there's a really strong AuDHD burnout to depression pathway of that sort of collapse that happens when executive functioning gets harder, and then, the shame that you're describing. Like, that just makes so much sense to me that that would then, for a lot of us, lead to the pathway of depression.
And that's also tricky, because it's like this whole paradox we're in of often what we need to help support us getting out of burnout requires energy. So, I'm thinking about, well, building in executive functioning and accommodations, but that requires, like, structure and systems, and then, especially, if the ADHDer isn't also autistic, because sometimes, I think for some of us who are AuDHD, the autism can kind of help out, because we're systematizers, some of us, and so it can kind of help out the executive functioning a little bit.
PATRICK CASALE: That's a great point. And I think that overcompensation that you just kind of mentioned, where the autistic side, if you are a systemizer, that can kind of come in and help out the ADHD's executive functioning struggles. There's almost this, like, if you're on a seesaw, and then the autistic side comes over and is like, "Okay, I got you executive functioning. I'm going to, like, systemize and organize, and we're going to figure out all of the ways to make sure these are not falling through the cracks." Takes an enormous amount of energy from the autistic side. And that's where that like push/pull, right? Just feeling like that rocking motion, if you're watching me, is really what it feels like, because it's like back and forth, "Okay, I got you. Okay, I got you." Now, we're both depleted, or one of us is depleted, and now here we are.
But most importantly, what you were mentioning, like, ADHD burnout leading to depression, because for me, what it would be like is the restlessness component, the lack of stimulation and excitement in my life and needing it, but not being able to access it, and being in that space where exactly what you said, you know what you need, but it does not feel attainable.
MEGAN NEFF: To me, that is why burnout often leads to depression. And I mean, I've talked in the recent weeks about how I'm in a more depressed state recently. And I was just having this conversation with my spouse last night about how what is so hard for me right now. And this is why, like, I have compassion for being a workaholic, work and monotropic gain is the main way that I distract from my painful thoughts. And so, especially if I'm in a depressed state, that becomes really important.
And then, when I cannot access work, or when work becomes a source of stress, like right now, I don't have, like, a deep focus project that's feeling enjoyable, so work just feels stressful. It also feels really hard because I am more fatigued, and so executive functioning, task initiation. And so, I don't have work to escape to. And so, then I'm stuck with these thoughts that are not the most pleasant thoughts.
And so, that is certainly part of the equation for me, is when in burnout, I don't have access to the things that I typically rely on to help escape some of the heaviness that I live with.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. It's a really hard place to be. And what I hear you saying too, right, is you're still working, but the stuff you're working on feels not exciting, monotonous, routine, like redundant, and it just doesn't give you the spark. Because we've talked about interest-based nervous systems on here for ADHDers. And if the stuff we're working on, you know, is like some of the necessary evils of whatever, that's not exactly going to fulfill us, that's not going to create that enjoyment, or that flow state even, or that hyper focus that we seek in that ADHD side.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and that's the thing for me. I'll often say the first time I'm in burnout, is that I lose access to my curiosity.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And then, once I've lost access to my curiosity, that's a very bad Megan Anna equation for my mental health.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, for sure. I know how you rely so heavily on your mind, and your thoughts, and your curiosity to feel like this is where I feel best in a lot of ways.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It's so scary when we lose access to the things that we rely so heavily on to [CROSSTALK 00:10:28]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …get through.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and I think the flip side for you, correct me if I'm wrong, would be like movement and activity. So, things like soccer, so like when you lose access to that, which I would think in burnout, you lose more access to that, or with chronic pain, then that's not a good equation for Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: No, no. Like, I've been joking about this, you know, the last couple episodes, because we were batch recording. So, if you're like hearing us talk about the same stuff or experiences. I have been sick all week. So, I don't do being a patient well. Like [INDISCERNIBLE 00:11:05]. You know, rationally, I know what I need, tea, salt water, gargling, rest, recovery, stillness, laying down, all the things. And my nervous system really doesn't do that well. So, when I am struggling mentally, or emotionally, or I'm in burnout, and I can't access movement, or getting off of my couch, or getting out of my bed, it's not a good place for me to be. I go to a really dark place in those moments.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can imagine.
PATRICK CASALE: One of my friends and co-workers is listening. She and I were talking about this today, and she's like, "You sound like you are in a cry for help place." And I'm like, "I'm not. I swear I'm not. But I know it sounds that way." Like, darkness, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And this is something that has shifted in our recording, and maybe why, you know, a few episodes ago, I was like, "Why do people listen to us?" I feel like we're being more open about the heaviness that we live with. And I do feel like, what am I trying to say? Like, it's important to be able to kind of zoom up and talk about, I'm saying something that's really heavy, and hard, and I'm safe, versus like… Like, I love that your friend was able to ask it kind of sounds like you're in a cry for help. And to do that check in of, like, are you okay?
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Because it is really important to have people in our life that we can comfortably talk about how hard the things are that we live with. And it's also important that we be able to do those check-ins of like, are you sharing this in a way that this is connecting and helpful, or like, should we do a more explicit check-in here? Like, are you okay?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I think that's unbelievably important and necessary. And I appreciate the person who did that. I was actually talking about my Ireland escape for writing, and she was like, "Okay, I hear you saying that you want, like, dark, gloomy, rain, misery, perhaps break it up and, like, go to Spain or Greece in the middle of it, and get some sunshine in your life."
And I was like, "I really want to embrace my, like, inner Edgar Allan Poe/Anthony Bourdain personality type." And she was like, "Again, are you okay?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'm fine. I'm as fine as I can be." Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Because there is something about embracing the melancholy that can be aligned, that can be supportive, but it's also, like, in what ways are we embracing the melancholy? And yeah, how are we doing that safely?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And, you know, I think sometimes, when we're in burnout, embracing the melancholy and embracing like-
MEGAN NEFF: Embracing slow is what that would be, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It's very helpful.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I think so often we want to, like, push through something, or get through something, or change our circumstance because it's uncomfortable. And a lot of times, society says that's what we should be doing. But in reality, like, sometimes, we do have to embrace the slow and acknowledging that it is going to be a little bit of a bumpy ride for a little bit, but acknowledging also, like zooming out, how often do we experience these lows and these periods, and how often do we come out of them? Just to acknowledge that this is not forever, this is not permanent, this is not finite.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that you said that, because that's again, if depression is also in the mix, that's what depressed mind, that's one of the tricks it will play, is that this is what forever looks like. And so, I think if we can contextualize the experience of my body is communicating to me that it's a season of slow down. And there will be different seasons. There will be other seasons, but in this season, I'm slowing down. And being able to remind ourselves that it's a season, I think, becomes… I know that can be hard for me, but when I'm able to do it is so helpful, because, yeah, my catastrophic mind wants to be like, "It's always going to be like this. It's always been like this." Which is just not true.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. And I think that's one of the hardest parts of depression, is kind of the lies that our brain and our body communicates to us, like, this is how life is all the time. [CROSSTALK 00:15:55]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …no, like…
MEGAN NEFF: Like, no. And that's where I do, like, kind of this, you know, act-based therapies where would be like, "Well, okay, that's depressed mind talking." So, doing some things that give it a little bit of distance and just naming, like, "Okay, I see what you're up to, and I understand why you are giving me these thoughts and feel this way." But also, I know other things are true, too.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that you mentioned that because I think distance and separation acknowledging, like, "Hey, this is here, but there's a reason that this is here too." I think burnout can also really be an indication and an acknowledgement of, like, I've pushed myself too far for whatever reason, or I've been impacted too greatly by something. This is a slowdown message. This is an indication, this is, like, an alarm going off of saying, like, okay…
MEGAN NEFF: Something's not working.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Sometimes that's helpful, in a way, to zoom out a bit, get a bit more introspective when you can access it, to say, like, "Okay, what is not working here, and are there things that I can change, or adapt, or implement going forward, even if it's like little things that I can do?"
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I've had kind of an awakening the last few… awakening, that sounds so big, that's too big of a word. New insights have arrived to me in the last few months. So, I've brought on a business partner, but it started with kind of, who's from the more traditional business space, and has helped me, kind of zoom out with me and see what I've built over the years.
And one of the insights that he's had is, "Megan Anna, you have so many executive functioning struggles that you are not accommodating. You just overwork. This is why you're working like 80, 90 work hours, is your accommodation, which is not an accommodation for your executive functioning struggles, is just overwork."
And so, it's been interesting. I would have thought a lot of my burnout was autistic driven, but I'm realizing, I think a lot of the burnouts I've been experiencing, a huge bit of it is the ADHD and the executive functioning, and my struggles to, like, appropriately, actually accommodate my executive functioning struggles.
PATRICK CASALE: So, I'm going to get metaphorical here so we can go back to our hellacious burnout city metaphor. And what I imagine that to look like in burnout city hell is like a roof that is leaking and you're constantly trying to patch it, but you're, like, patching it with the wrong material constantly. So, you're just making more work for yourself and your time [CROSSTALK 00:19:59]-
MEGAN NEFF: I would totally do that too. Whenever there's a problem, I just jump to, like, whatever's nearest me to try and solve it, and it's typically not the best solution. So, I'd literally be there just like putting up new patches, like, for hours, until someone would come up to me and be like, "Megan Anna, do you know that, like, if you go down a level, there's actually a patch that'll work, and then you don't have to stand here for eight hours?" That is the story of my life.
PATRICK CASALE: It's just Megan, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:20:20] on this roof of, like, a bucket trying to catch the water as it's, like, coming in. But in reality, it's like, "Hey, maybe if we tried this thing."
MEGAN NEFF: I feel like this is kind of an autistic ADHD thing, where if I have a solution that works good enough, I just stick with it, even if it's not the most efficient one. And I'll get stuck in like this groove where it's where it's like, "But it works."
So, I think it's partly autism, but I also think it's, I had so many experiences through my life of people being like, "We'll do it this way." But then, I either couldn't understand what they were saying, or I would try it that way, and it didn't work for me. So, I also think I get overly attached to things that kind of work, because if someone's like, "We'll do it this way." I don't trust that I'll A, understand, or B, that it'll actually work for my brain.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I totally relate to that, actually. And I think there's that, like, some of that rigidity in the thinking too, of like, well, this is good enough, and trying it differently is like a task or routine disruption, and this is too impactful. So, I'm going to continue down this path, although, I know there's a solution that would probably be a little bit better or easier, and really hard.
I've even said it out loud to myself sometimes when something is not working, and I'm like, trying to get myself out of that mindset where I'm in either monotropic focus or I just cannot shake it to be like, "Hey, shake yourself out of this." And it's really hard to do.
MEGAN NEFF: It is so hard, and partly because, again, it takes energy to zoom out and be like, are there other solutions I'm not considering? So, yeah, it was the partly because of the stress of everything we went through with the website migration. This is where I decided to bring in a business partner, because I was at a point of stress of like, do I just shut this thing down? Like, this feels like such a massive thing to be holding on my own.
And one of the things, Nick is his name, so one of the things he's also taught me is the power of like the pause. Because that was one of the first things he noticed. He's like, "You just jump to, like, the quickest solution. But it's often not the best." And I even do it with, like, finishing people's sentences. I'll just like, jump to what I feel like should be the end of the sentence. Typically, I'm wrong.
So, he's been helping me to pause and to bring in my team. And he's like, "You have a team of people who have good ideas." And because I was just, like, jumping around, doing it in my head.
And so, that's been so huge for me is to practice the pause, and then to get other people's input into it, and be like, "Oh, okay, yeah, that is way better than, like, this patch that I was putting on this leaking roof."
PATRICK CASALE: So, I think that's another good, like, metaphor for our city situation, where, if you were in like monotropic manor, or that more ideal city and scenario, you kind of have this team around you that you delegate to, and you ask for support and accommodation. And you have each other's backs in that way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and there's the practice of the pause. So, it's like, okay, I'm stuck in a rut. Hands off, I'm going to pause. And ideally, I've got people I can pause with. And if we don't, I think we can still do a pause.
And I have my hands up. I'm thinking of Grey's Anatomy. Sometimes I do this in surgery, when it's like, something's not working, they'll be like, "Everyone pause, hands off." Like, it's like a surgical crisis. I don't know how accurate this is for medical stuff. And then, it's like they're just pausing to see what the body's actually doing before they decide what's next.
So, the metaphorical pause, whether it's alone or with people. I know that's hard for my ADHD brain to do. And so, it's been helpful to actually have it as a ritual of like, okay, I need to do a pause right now. I need to not just react or just stay in whatever I'm doing.
PATRICK CASALE: I noticed that, like, the closer I get into these burnout spaces, the more I want to react immediately, like you're saying, and that could be like, over communication, or like, jumping into my team's like, whatever they're dealing with, and "fixing it" because I see the solution, and they do not appreciate that. They're like, "I have a job to do, right? Like you hired me to do this thing."
So, schedule sending and, like, typing something out, getting it out of my head. Putting it out there, scheduling it, allows me to step back and be like, "Do I need to delete this? Like, do I need to send this? Are they taking care of it already?"
And, like you said, practicing the pause because it's so easy, because I'm more irritated in this state, more frustrated. My distress tolerance is down. I'm like, "No, they're not doing it right. See they're…" And then, in reality, "Yeah, we were handling this behind the scenes. Like, we are doing it the way we need to do it." "Okay? I need to step back."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I really can see, as we're talking about this, how ADHD burnout drives more AuDHD burnout because, yeah, our like, emotional fuse is less, our ability to pause is less, our executive functioning is struggling more. So, it'd be really easy to, like, do things like that, where we're reactively responding, and then we're creating situations that create more stress, more work. Yeah, yeah, which goes back to what we were saying about maybe there's something about honoring the slow and, like, aligning with, okay, this is the energy my body's in.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. And it's so hard though. Like, I can say that out loud, and I'm really trying to do it. Like, I know some of you listening might think otherwise based on some of our conversations, but I am trying so hard to, like, step away from things and like, allow myself to just exist, and to just be in these moments, in this season of my life. It's really freaking hard, but I am doing it. And I have to give myself credit, and like, exhibit a word that I hate, self-compassion because, like, when I noticed, like, okay, you are handing things off. You are saying no to these things. You are, like, creating more distance in life and separation in your next thing, I think that's important for me, at least, personally, to acknowledge for myself, because it's so hard sometimes to, like, feel like I am trying to dig myself out from this, like, massive crater, like, burnout hole that I have created over the last few years.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and again, I feel like ADHD is great at building craters for burnout.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, that's the same thing. And again, it's why I'm starting to feel relief from bringing in a partner, is I built a Frankenstein business from my ADHD of like, well, this got boring, so I'm going to now add this wing to Neurodivergent Insights. And yeah, for years, I've been calling it my Frankenstein business. And a Frankenstein business is a great crater to crawl in for ADHD burnout out.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And you've done something similar, of like, you're like, "Well, I'm bored now, so I'll start another podcast, or I'll do this, or I'll do that."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, also, like, coming to a sort of reckoning of that, okay, this is the ADHD tendency to get bored and to go start something new and exciting.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. Yeah. And I think when we have these Frankenstein businesses, which we could also incorporate into our burnout hell city is like these Frankenstein creation, so to speak, whether it be your business, whether it be relationships, whether it be, you know, just systems that don't work for you, it's almost like, how do we take this beautiful monster creation and turn it into something that feels more effective and more supportive of what we need?
And I think, like, when you step across that bridge that we were talking about, it takes a lot of self-work, and insight, and deconstruction too. Because what I think, for me, is, ever since I created my business back in 2020, I have created this four-and-a-half, five-year journey into this hellacious, like crater-like experience.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. The folks who I see, like, doing the best or finding sustainable ways, especially, the AuDHD folks, are people who have found a way to let the autism lead in building some kind of structure or frame, and then, letting the ADHD play within it. So, where there's a structure that doesn't change, but there's novelty within it. And folks who can figure out how to do that and build that in their lives, it feels like they've got a bit of sustainability to work with.
PATRICK CASALE: So now the million-dollar question, how do we do that?
MEGAN NEFF: Like, I think the zooming out helps. I think if the person does have access to systematizing thinking, like, that's where that can be really helpful, of, okay, what's going to be the structure or the ritual that creates the sameness, the container? So, I think it starts by building the container. And making a really sturdy container from which new, exciting, playful things get to exist.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree 100%. And I think that if you're moving towards this burnout that we've been talking about, now's the time. Like, everything you can do to create that container and to protect yourself, acknowledging that, like, you are getting closer and closer to that crevasse almost.
And if you're in it, that's a little trickier. But I think it's about trying to, again, zoom out and really think about, okay, here I am in this burnout space. Going forward, how can I create this container to kind of step into and to kind of create now with the things that I know that I'm going to need in order to protect myself from another cyclical experience like this?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, this is a little bit of a pivot, but, I mean, I think we've explored some of the ways that autism and ADHD could exasperate burnout, which from like, sensory stuff to executive functioning stuff, to that internal tensions you named, if I want to socialize, but then that drains me. Are there ways where you see being autistic and ADHD
helping you? Like, helping you build a life that's a little bit more resilient to burnout? Like, the fact that you are both?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, right. I hope. Yeah, I think that the more I've zoomed out, just the more I've understood both neurotypes and both experiences have allowed for me to start to co-create like that container in that world, because now I acknowledge ADHD wants the novelty, the playfulness, let's give it space, but let's try to build in accountability measures. Let's try to build in structure. Let's try to build in boundaries. Let's try to communicate with people who I'm close with about how to do check ins, how to kind of support when things are happening.
So, for me, I do think I've, like, future-planned in a way that feels more harmonious, opposed to ADHD steering the ship directly into iceberg and the Titanic.
MEGAN NEFF: So, the autism helps the ADHD. Are there ways that ADHD helps the autism?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that playfulness piece, you know, like allowing to be a little bit more playful, to get a little more excited about certain things in my life, to become more childlike in certain ways, with ways that I always used to have such a firm grasp on of like, "No, this is too silly. No, this is too…" Like, I didn't know I was going to enjoy rolling around with giant rat rodent things a couple days ago with my friends and you know that Capybara experience. You know, acknowledging that the playfulness is so important for me, and trying to figure out ways that I do enjoy being playful, and excited, and allowing myself to embrace that more and more has been really, really, really helpful for me.
MEGAN NEFF: So, ADHD kind of helps you find the life sparks?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Or the energy sparks and the life sparks?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And the autism helps create some, like, containment?
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that makes sense. And like, I resonate with that.
PATRICK CASALE: I think I also have to have acceptance that the autism side needs like 70 to 80% of the container, which the ADHD side doesn't appreciate.
MEGAN NEFF: I was just thinking that, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: But I think that is my reality of like, I really need to have control over that environment 80% of the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I can see how the ADHD would be, like, "Nah."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'm busting out of this thing.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, that's part of burnout city is, like, in burnout city, they're just, like, locked in an arm-wrestling match constantly.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: But in in the monotropic manor city, they have created this really harmonious structure where they're both content and happy. Like, ADHD feel safe because it actually has a container that feels sturdy, and autism feels like appreciative of the life the ADHD contributes to the container, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think in, like, monotropic manor, like I have a vision of them, like, skipping, holding hands.
MEGAN NEFF: I feel like the autistic part would be like, "No, -
PATRICK CASALE: Burnout [CROSSTALK 00:35:03]-
MEGAN NEFF: …I'm not skipping, holding hands."
PATRICK CASALE: …arm-wrestling and ADHD muscles are so much bigger. And just like, it's one of those situations where it's like, "Yeah, let's arm wrestle as a joke." And then, just like, immediately slams the arm down.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. ADHD is definitely winning that arm-wrestle.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so how can we come up with a skipping metaphor that doesn't feel so atrocious to the autistic part?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it is atrocious when I actually say it out loud. I think that maybe a monotropic manor, the autism side is like, "Oh, I get to, like, curl up and read this book or do this work, and I don't have to worry about the sensory stuff." And the ADHD side is like, outside playing, and it's okay that they have a little space.
MEGAN NEFF: Like healthy differentiation. They're not enmeshed.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And then, when they want to connect, they can parallel play or parallel body work.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, they can body double if they want. And I think it's about the ADHD side, knowing and acknowledging, "I do have the freedom to do things." And the autism side, knowing and acknowledging. And they're not going to push it too far. And I think that's like the harmonious balance in a way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I like that. I like that.
PATRICK CASALE: Look at us being positive. Like, this is why people come and listen for the positivity.
MEGAN NEFF: If you want to feel all of the positive vibes, go listen to Divergent Conversations.
PATRICK CASALE: On Fridays and some days when we take breaks, and on all the platforms. Yeah. No, in all seriousness, I actually am glad we did this episode. Like, it kind of makes me feel a little more at peace. And also, there's like these aha moments or epiphany moments for me where I'm like, "I think there can be some, like, symbiosis here."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, for sure.
PATRICK CASALE: You know?
MEGAN NEFF: I just thought of a framework. So, this came up in the Gifted series we did, but this framework is not at all… So, the idea of overexcitabilities, like, it's very much connected to the gifted idea, but really the idea of overexcitabilities, if you look at it, it's very neurodivergent.
And so, Caitlin, who works at Neurodivergent Insights. She and I did a workbook last year that I actually love, and I feel I've not done a good job explaining this self-care model. And this was something that she was already doing. It's this idea of, we've got these five overexcitabilities. So, there's, like, sensory, there's physical, or motor, there's intellectual, there's emotional. There's one word that I'm forgetting. But it's this idea, and the way I see them in my mind is like there are these little critters, and you need to feed them. And if they're off balance, that's kind of when we're in trouble. And so, I think, especially when we're AuDHD, still struggling to say that.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:38:25]-
MEGAN NEFF: Like, thinking through, okay, which of my overexcitability little critters, like, could use some nourishment today? And which ones are maybe overbearing, or I'm in a, like, strained relationship to them? But there's something about seeing them as these, like, cute little critters that I feed, that I love, as like, a self-care framework of like, okay. So, like, the physical or the motor. It's like, okay, I need to feed that one, because that's where it's lacking, and it's been…
Like, when you're sick, it's like, your little physical motor critter is not very happy. And so, it needs nourishment when you get better.
PATRICK CASALE: I like that. Yeah, I can get behind that, for sure. I think that's a cool framework. And, you know, I have so many fascinating, like, special interests around animals now, and I could put, like, one of my five favorite animals in each one of those. So, that works really well.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh. Well, I'll send it to you just so you can see the visuals. And then, I would actually be curious what animals you made for each of your OEs, your overexcitabilities.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, let's-
MEGAN NEFF: And then, you could start talking about, like, feeding the different animals.
PATRICK CASALE: See, I like this, because then I can have that association.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool.
MEGAN NEFF: I'll send it to you, yeah. And then, like, we're just building so many metaphors. I feel like in two episodes from now, we're going to be like, "And then, I've had my hedgehog, and then I went to monotropic manor. I was sitting in a monotropic manor [INDISCERNIBLE 00:39:59] my hedgehog."
PATRICK CASALE: People are listening, and they're like, "What the fuck?" Thank you for making it all the way through. If you're still with us, I think creating this framework is really useful, especially if you are more visual, which I am typically not, but having like five little animal critters that I can kind of have this association with these overexcitabilities, it's all going to make sense. We're going to link this stuff, and then it will make sense for those of you who are sitting there like, "Why am I listening to this still?"
But if you are, thank you for doing so and listening through this entire series of Autistic Burnout and now AuDHD Burnout. We still have one more episode to go on all platforms and YouTube on Fridays. Thanks for listening. Goodbye.
