Episode 118 (Season 3): Autistic Burnout City: Life When the Mask Comes Off
Aug 07, 2025
Show Notes
Burnout can hit hard for late-diagnosed autistic and ADHD adults, especially when the energy cost of masking becomes too much to bear. Dropping the mask and stepping into authenticity brings both relief and upheaval, raising new challenges that aren’t always easy to navigate alone.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the intricate relationship between masking, unmasking, and Autistic burnout. They use vivid metaphors and real-life examples to depict how masking acts as a bridge to burnout city, discuss the destabilizing yet liberating process of unmasking, and share personal stories of re-discovering their bodies, needs, and boundaries after years of suppressing them. They also offer practical suggestions for finding moments of authentic self-expression, especially when safety and acceptance aren't always possible.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Gain a clear, relatable understanding of how masking—often invisible to even ourselves—contributes to burnout and why unmasking can feel disorienting but ultimately healing.
- Hear honest stories from Patrick and Megan Anna about the messy realities and sometimes victories of post-discovery life, including changes in relationships, energy management, and self-acceptance.
- Learn small, actionable strategies for unmasking safely, rebuilding trust in your body, and advocating for your needs, even if it’s just a few minutes each day.
If you’ve been struggling with burnout or questioning why life feels harder after discovering you’re Autistic or ADHD, this episode offers validation, insight, and gentle guidance through the journey.
Resources
- Neurodivergent Insights Autistic Masking Workbook: neurodivergentinsights.com/autistic-masking
- Neurodivergent Insights Resource on Autistic Burnout: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
- The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
- Check out Neurodivergent Insights’ Library of Boundary Scripts (free resource)
Divergent Conversations Podcast Episodes:
- Episode 2: Autistic Burnout (divergentpod.com/2)
- Episode 47: Autistic Burnout (Part 2): A Deep Dive Into The Diversity of Burnout (divergentpod.com/47)
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are continuing our… what are we calling this series? Burnout Hell, Burnout City.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, but it's got to have duality to it. So, like Burnout Cities. Oh, my goodness, well, we referenced our cities, but we didn't add to our cities’ metaphor in the last episode. Let's be sure and add to our city metaphor.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It's probably how you know we're not feeling well, is how…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. That is [CROSSTALK 00:01:55]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:01:55]-
MEGAN NEFF: …for me.
PATRICK CASALE: ...and creativity.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, accessing play and creativity, that is one of the ways I know that I am not… Like, when I when I'm struggling to access that, that's one of the ways I know I'm not in a good space.
PATRICK CASALE: Same, same, same, same. Okay, we're going to do our best to add to our metaphorical city. Today, we are going to talk about masking and how that contributes to burnout, and how a lot of people who do discover that they're autistic later in life hit that wall with intense autistic burnout, drop the mask, and sometimes all hell breaks loose.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, for a lot of us, our lives can change in pretty dramatic ways when we drop the mask. And so, it's such an interesting experience, because it can be both stabilizing, but it can also be destabilizing. Like, it often takes a season of destabilization to get to the stability that comes on the other side of that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. I'm about four years in post-discovery now, so I would still say that there are a lot of places where I really have a hard time. But I think that it's just really me being my most authentic self and acknowledging all of the accommodations that I build in on a daily basis.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: As I just spilled water all over myself, like fully just water.
MEGAN NEFF: That reminds me of Airplane. Did you ever watch the Airplane movies as a kid?
PATRICK CASALE: You know, I think that was, like, a little bit before my time.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh. I'm only, like, two years older than you. Oh, but, like, I think my family watched, like, older movies, I don't know.
So, I remember, like, this was like the first joke that I remember, like, my family got, but I didn't. So, it's the kind of, like, stupid humor. But anyways, he, like, is drinking a glass of water, and he misses his mouth, and he's like, "I have a drinking problem." And everyone laughs. And I was like, "Why is that funny?"
And then, you know, well, and I guess it makes sense. As a kid, I wouldn't have understood the context of that joke, but they had to explain it to me. And I still didn't get it. I was like, "That is a drinking problem if you, like, can't get it into your mouth."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you need water for hydration. Like, your body needs water.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And if you are struggling to pour it into your mouth versus your body, that's a drinking problem.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes. So…
MEGAN NEFF: Anyways, masking.
PATRICK CASALE: Anyways. Okay [CROSSTALK 00:04:33]-
MEGAN NEFF: Well, actually, I think masking can make us more vulnerable to our drinking problems the other time.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And we have talked that quite a bit.
MEGAN NEFF: We have talked about that, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we've had a couple episodes on masking. I think we could link to those.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, masking, it's not good, it's not bad. It's a thing. There's privileges that come with it. And there's also very real risks that come with it, and burnout being one of them, mental health. Like, I think those who mask tend to have more mental health conditions, tend to have more substance use, suicidality goes up. Like, there's some very real cost to energy or costs to masking.
Masking is also a very high-energy activity, like cognitively, in our bodies. So, the masking to burnout connection just makes sense to me. So, yes, masking is a high-energy activity.
PATRICK CASALE: I have an idea. Okay, well said, first of all. Second of all, for this metaphorical city, if we're going to incorporate masking, and you say that it's like masking is just kind of leads to burnout, that just kind of makes sense to me. What if there was like a bridge in the city, and that, you know, you're masking all your life, you're going over this bridge, and immediately on the other side of that bridge is just complete and utter burnout and depletion?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, it's like a drop-off.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, or maybe it's like a drawbridge. So, you're like masking, and you're walking, and all of a sudden, the bridge starts opening up and lifting up.
MEGAN NEFF: And then, you fall into the river, and it's cold, and it's dark. And like, it's this really cold shock to your system.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And maybe there's like a jellyfish in the water, and maybe it smells really bad down there. And like, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And you're like, “What is going on?” And then, you're trying to figure out how to swim, and it's really cold, so you're struggling to remember how to swim. And you're really disoriented, because you have no idea what's going on.
And you look back up at the bridge and what your life used to be, and you're like, "Well, life used to work, but now I can't get my arms to work because I'm cold and I've just been stung by a jellyfish and I don't know what's happening."
PATRICK CASALE: And you're thinking about how, like, when you were masking, you would just sidestep that portion of the bridge and you would continue on your day. And you didn't even see the fact that the entire thing opened up and dropped off into this disgusting, smelly, cold water.
MEGAN NEFF: Welcome to autism, people. Congratulations, you're autistic.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's going to, yeah. So, I think in a lot of ways, you know, if we're talking like, especially, for a lot of people who discover that they're autistic later in life, we see a lot of high masking people who all of a sudden, those strategies that you've used for survival no longer meet your needs or they're no longer working.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, they don't work. And then, there's the confusion, both for you but also, for the people in your life. Like, “Well, last month you could do this.” Or, “You used to be able to do this.”
And that gets back to what we were talking about last week with energy management of like, well, I used to be able to push through, so I should be able to push through. Like, I should be able to figure out how to climb up out of this lake, back onto the bridge, get into my dry clothes, and just carry on.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep, yeah, exactly that. And how much of a mindfuck that can be in those moments where you are truly just, like, grasping at straws because you're trying to figure out, like, what is happening to me? Like, why has life suddenly shifted so drastically?
And I'm actually thinking about what you're saying about how masking leads to other co-occurring, like, mental health conditions, substance use, etc. And I haven't seen a lot of research for this. But like for those who have relied heavily on alcohol, who have unfortunately moved more into that alcohol addiction space, who have gone through perhaps like detox and rehabilitation afterwards, and recovery, and have abstained, I just wonder what that does in terms of like that drastic shock to the system of all of that masking that's gone on because alcohol and substance use have become so much of a… Crutch is not an affirming term in this [CROSSTALK 00:09:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: Like an unhelpful accommodation.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and how that [CROSSTALK 00:09:02]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: …is gone, because you're trying to recover from substance use or alcoholism, and all of a sudden, you're like, "Whoa, why is all of this stuff happening to me?"
And that gets really messy, because when you are coming out of substance use recovery and you're trying to untangle your life, you are going to experience like a new existence with a lot of new sensation, and overwhelm, and emotion. So, if you're trying to untangle that stuff simultaneously, messy, hard to delineate, and differentiate.
MEGAN NEFF: That's really interesting. And also, it'd be interesting, like, of what comes first. Because, like, I know several people who, like, went through recovery, and then, it was years later they discovered they were autistic or ADHD, and that helped them make more sense of it. But you're right, there'd be an awakening to like the sensory experience when you're not dulling it.
And that's also, for, I hear this come up a lot, and this was my experience of after discovering I was autistic, and kind of thawing my relationship to my body, which had been a pretty frozen, dissociated one, I got more in touch with my sensory sensitivities. So, like, there would be these different seasons in life, and I think so, like, recovery sobriety would be one where it's like, oh, there's a lot happening both… And also, emotionally. Because substance use is often a way that we're avoiding emotions. So, there'd be a lot we're waking up to both emotionally, but also, sensory, socially, yeah, yeah. And then, there's a similar process when we discover we're autistic or ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, all of the energy, both consciously and subconsciously, going into masking every day of your life and not having the understanding as to why, aside from, potentially, like, I know this helps me fit in. I know this helps me, you know, feel less awkward.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and even that, though I think a lot of us don't have access to because, like, I don't know about you, but I assumed everyone was coaching their body on what to do, or pre-scripting conversations, or stopping their bodies from moving, or forcing eye contact. Like, I just thought that's what everyone was doing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. Okay, so back to this metaphorical city. Everyone is doing that in all scenarios, but when you come to the other side of that bridge, and you do sidestep, and you get there on the other side, and you drop the mask, maybe it's a situation where, like, nobody's doing that, nobody's forcing eye contact, nobody's like…
MEGAN NEFF: So, now, are we in monotropic manor city?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, so, like, the bridge connects the cities, but you have to do the, like, ice plunge, river plunge, to get to the other side.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, and maybe this is part of it, maybe some people are desperately trying to climb, maybe there's like a rope ladder, and they're trying to climb back up to get to the old city, because it's like, that's where their people are, that's where their maybe their jobs are. So, it's like, I think I'm supposed to do that. Or you can go to monotropic city by just, like, swimming over to the edge and like dragging your body up to the curb. And when you, like, stumble into the center city, you realize, yeah, no one's forcing eye contact, no one's doing small talk. People are stimming and like, regulating their bodies how they need to.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, but people have to go back and forth between these cities.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, they do. And I think maybe perhaps that bridge becomes a little less treacherous to navigate back and forth. Like, it's easier to make sense of, okay, I need to go back into this part of my life. I understand that I'm going to mask in these situations, or I'm more aware of the fact that I'm masking in these situations, and perhaps even have the understanding as to why.
MEGAN NEFF: So, each time you go back it gets a little bit harder. And it takes more spoons each time you go back. You have to, like, do the drawbridge to put it down. The first time, you have to put one spoon in, and the drawbridge goes down, and you can go back to masking burnout city. And then, the second time you have to put two spoons in. So, every time you go back, you have to actually put in more spoons, because every time you're more aware of the energy that you're using to mask and it becomes a little bit more painful, and takes a little bit more energy, and feels a little bit more inauthentic and a little bit more dissatisfying to, like, connect in that way. So, yeah, each time you go back, it's a little bit more depleting.
PATRICK CASALE: And it really does make you have to confront and face is this worth it? Is going back continuously worth it on my system? Or is it necessary and I have to do this?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, most people work in that city. And then, right, we've talked a lot in other episodes about masking and safety, especially, for racialized, autistic people. So, for most people, yeah, it's not a choice. It's like, this is what keeps me safe, or this is how I get my income. So, maybe you get little pockets of being in the other city where you're unmasked, and that's so good, because that gives us a moment of reprieve, but really, people's lives are still in the other city where they're needing to mask.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and that's a lot of what we hear, right? Is like these momentary blips of even being able to unmask safely are so important, and having that intentional time to unmask safely and to do so in a way that that works best for your system, with the acknowledgement that I don't get to do this long term, each day, or throughout most of my life.
MEGAN NEFF: So, there's a third experience, where you're unmasked, but you're in the city, you're in the burnout city, where people are masking, so then people are looking at you. So, that's still an energy cost, right? If you can't mask, like, if you're an autistic person who can't mask, or if you're unmasked, but you're in kind of neuronormative space, you're being perceived in that unmasking that is, for many of us, that involves unwanted attention, and that also takes energy like.
And that's where it's not like masking takes energy and unmasking doesn't. It's like, well, if you're unmasking, and it's safe to do so, you're either on your own or with other people who are unmasking, there's this third experience where you're unmasking but you're having people's negative responses to it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep. And that's also a really painful, vulnerable place to be.
MEGAN NEFF: And also, that's one of the things that's not an option for everyone. Like, actually, for a lot of autistic people who can't mask it's, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that constant perception and, yeah, unwanted attention.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Like, that takes energy to absorb that, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. So, I'm just glad you started this conversation with, like, it's not good, it's not bad, you know? Like, it just is. And it's a part of this experience.
So, a lot of people ask this question of, "Okay, I finally discover later in life that I'm autistic. How come life feels so much fucking harder right now?"
MEGAN NEFF: Yep, I hear that question a lot, too. I think it was where, like, well, I think for me, it was because I started paying attention. I started paying attention to what my experience actually was. Like I said, I got more connected to my body. So, I realized how sensory overloaded it is.
I do think there was also something psychologically about, you mean this 150-pound backpack that I've been carrying, not everyone else is, like, carrying that? So, there's also just something psychologically about realizing I was doing extra labor that others weren't that made me, I think, feel a bit deflated and yeah.
How about for you? What do you think was it about discovering autism or ADHD that then made life actually feel harder?
PATRICK CASALE: One, I want to say I like your example a lot, but I thought what you were going to say is that you've been carrying this 150-year-old body around, because I often joke that I feel like I'm 150 years old.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I do. I feel like that I, well, I don't go that far, I say I'm an 80-year-old woman, but like, my body feels very old.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so that's where I thought you were going with that. But the backpack makes a lot more sense.
How about for me? Yeah, I think there that was a part of it paying more attention, being significantly more aware of, like, how much energy and effort lots of things take me. I think there was a lot of unpacking internalized ableism, kind of redefining and reforming friendships and relationships takes an enormous amount of energy, and there's a lot of vulnerability in it, and just setting boundaries around certain things and trying hard to stick to them.
I think, I'm trying to think of a way that [INDISCERNIBLE 00:19:22] this. I feel like I've become so much more reclusive and overwhelmed in a lot of ways. Like, I don't leave my house very often anymore.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh no, I've rubbed off on you.
PATRICK CASALE: Like, you know, I do travel for, like, events and things for work-related things in my life. But otherwise, I'm really not leaving very often. And I think I just have become like so hyper aware of how impacted I am by so many things.
We're in the summertime. I'm in North Carolina. We're in a heat wave, like it's hell, and like the sheer thought of going outside and like being active, or walking around, or going to meet a friend for coffee, none of that sounds appealing to me. And it's really because of how much I struggle to regulate temperature, especially heat sensitivity. And I just have to exist in like darkness. And I think I've realized that more.
MEGAN NEFF: So, here's a question, would past self Patrick have gone in the heat to go meet a friend for coffee? You would have been uncomfortable, but maybe not noticed it terribly much, and then, like, would you have come home and crashed but not made the connection? Like, what would the cost have been to past Patrick?
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, past Patrick, the ghosts of Patrick's past would have went, for sure, and like, almost "white knuckled" through, and had been very aware of how, like, uncomfortable I was in the space, and how much I wanted to leave, and how I would try to figure out ways, like, that I could end that engagement early so I could get out of there. And including, like, making up excuses. Like, completely being like, "Yeah, this happened. I have to go." Because I was such a fucking people pleaser in those times.
And then, coming home, I don't even know if I would have noticed how exhausted I was, but I would have been really irritable, and really frustrated, and really overwhelmed, but I don't think I would have had a connection as to why. Like, that would have just been my existence and…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense to me that. Yeah, I think similar, like, I remember, so when I was doing grad school, and then I'd go pick up the kids from school, and they had an after school program, and I remember, like, getting out of the car to go to the place to pick them up, there'd be like, this huge wall of fatigue. And like, I felt like I was dragging my body. And then, I'd get the kids in the car. And then, I'd get home. And I would often, especially if Luke… Luke used to have a lot of work meetings, if he didn't, then, like, I would just collapse on the couch.
And like, the language I was using was chronic fatigue, and I still, like, I don't know all the health pieces that I'm dealing with, and my family would just kind of know that, like, I'm just collapsed on the couch till the next day.
And, yeah, I wouldn't have made the connections to, "Oh, well, that's because I'm sensory overwhelmed from my day of being out in the world and from my uncomfortable professional clothes I'm wearing." I just knew that it was physically painful. Like, those transitions were physically painful, and then I would just crash on the couch until I could go to bed.
PATRICK CASALE: I can actually remember, now that you say that, it like brings up a memory for me. When I used to live in New York, I was dating someone up there, and she had a big family, we'd go to a lot of, just not even holidays, just like Sunday dinners or whatever, and how often I would fall asleep laying down on their couch in their living room, and how I didn't realize that was not like "socially acceptable" to just like a six foot two human being, like, laid on the couch, asleep. And-
MEGAN NEFF: It is so funny.
PATRICK CASALE: …how they would bring it up to me, like, "It's kind of rude that, like you come over and fall asleep on the couch when we're trying to all spend time together." And never realized how depleting those environments were.
MEGAN NEFF: That is so funny. Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I mean, funny to look back on, but like, in the moment, it was hard because, like, I didn't know why this was happening to me. Now, I'm like, 20 years old, 22 years old. I'm like, "How do I have zero energy? Like, how come when I go to, like, these environments and these spaces, like, I really start to immediately shut down." And I just didn't have any sense of understanding whatsoever.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, understanding of like, why you're shutting down, or apparently, the social understanding that maybe it's not polite to sleep on a couch in your girlfriend's house.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yep, yep, yep. But not even like-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:25:54]. Yeah, go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: But not even a reclining couch. Like a recliner, I feel like would have been more acceptable. Or like-
MEGAN NEFF: You were like taking up the couch. You were taking up like three or four people's…
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, oops.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I totally see how that gets coded, too. That's like, the aloof, rude boyfriend versus like, oh yeah, that's my autistic boyfriend.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. And I, you know, certainly was not trying to be rude in anyway. I mean, I didn't really like her family, but I wasn't going to, like, go there and present that way. But like, couldn't help it.
And I also remember being in jobs at that time where I had a lot of independence as like a case manager who had to go from location to location and check on clients, and I would fall asleep in my car, not like driving. But like, I would literally, like, go find parking lots and go to sleep. And I just remember how tired I was all the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I am still that tired, but I just never sleep now. So, that's really fun.
MEGAN NEFF: I was going to say you used to be able to sleep [INDISCERNIBLE 00:27:05] it sounds like.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, or it's like crash too, from like fatigue, but, you know-
MEGAN NEFF: Well, maybe you need to go have more sensory, irritating experiences, and then maybe you'll sleep better.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:27:17]-
MEGAN NEFF: So, the day I got back from the coast with Luke's… So, we were with Luke's family, and there were lots of kids. So, it was a sensory, overwhelming week. The day I got back, I slept 10 and a half hours. I never sleep like that.
So, here's my recommendation, go to like a Chuck E. Cheese, just like, go into, like, the ball pit, just sit there with all the kids playing around you. Do that for like, you know, four hours, and then, go home and sleep. That's my new sleep strategy for you, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: What a prescription? That could also be in burnout hell city is like, it's just Chuck E. Cheeses, and it's like adults and kids in the ball pit, and it's disgusting, and gross, and germ ridden, and loud and obnoxious.
And like, have you ever touched those disgusting, like, the things in the ball pit? Like, texturally, it's horrible plastic, like, oh, gross. Or also, like, as you're looking for rides in burnout city, it's only lifts that are shared lifts, and the AC doesn't work, and it's super hot, and it's cranked down windows that don't roll down. And you're, like, sharing space in a Prius with like four other adults, and the guy's playing, like, music really loudly, and he also smokes cigarettes in his lift. So, like-
MEGAN NEFF: Smokes cigarettes, but also, has an air freshener to try to hide this cigarette smoke. So, you're both getting the cigarette smell, but also, the air freshener is really intense, and you're getting that [CROSSTALK 00:28:53]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:28:53] air freshener that just came out of the package, and it just, oh, God.
MEGAN NEFF: I like our cities.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't like this city.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, yeah, I don't like it, but I like the personification of burnout that we're doing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, have we said anything helpful for people? Should we try to say anything helpful for people?
PATRICK CASALE: Sorry, you all if you're still with us, this is our lives right now. So, you know, just trying to showcase that. Helpful stuff, go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I mean, damn, no, that feels like a lot of pressure. I mean…
PATRICK CASALE: Well, I'll put the baton back in the hot potato, as you call it. I just saw my dog walker like through the window, so I know what's about to happen in a second. So, you talk about this a lot, like how there are ways to unmask safely in an environment that you can control, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: Even if it means a couple of minutes a day, even if it means an hour a day when you can, acknowledging, right, as we've said before, there are not going to be environments that are going to be safe for all of you to mask in or unmask in, I mean, I'm sorry, words, for a lot of reasons. So, taking those small opportunities when you can to unmask and we can talk about unmasking strategies and sensory soothing strategies too, simultaneously. But I think that's important, too, even if it's a day.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and that's where, like, I will differentiate between, like, private unmasking and public unmasking, and that I hope everyone can privately experiment with unmasking, because part of that, to me, we have to unmask with ourselves, right? And this is where, like, I actually feel like the language of masking doesn't quite capture it. Like, it's deeper than that, because when we've been masking from a young age, like we don't know what movement feels good. We don't necessarily know what clothing feels good. So, it's experimentation. It's what movement feels good.
And if we're alone and private, maybe we're experimenting with different kinds of stims or different kind of like dancing and music, or different kind of textures, and we're giving ourselves permission to just experiment, and be in our body, and see what feels good. And that sounds simple, but it's actually pretty radical for a lot of us.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. Even what you're mentioning, like, in terms of clothing, right? Like, you've mentioned on here before, like, okay, as a woman, in this professional settings, I'm supposed to dress a certain way, society says that. A lot of this stuff is really uncomfortable.
For me, similar, like, okay, I own a private practice. I'm supposed to dress more professionally and go to work every day. I'm hot all the time. So, like, unmasking for me was like, I'm going to wear shorts in situations where some people are like, "Why is this person wearing shorts?" It's about, like, wearing more athletic clothing that is sensory soothing to me, and like starting to experiment with, like, brighter colors, even, because I've mentioned on here that I used to really dull my clothing out for this reason, because I did not want to be perceived or draw attention. And I think you kind of have mentioned doing the opposite in some ways.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: And for me, like, you know, that stuff has been really empowering, too, just trying to find clothing that feels comfortable for me, that, you know, feels comfortable on my body, that I don't feel like, I don't know, movement and feeling so inflexible so often. Like, that's also really important. And yeah, so that's been a part of it.
Keeping the temperature at a certain temperature in my house has been a part of unmasking, if I'm being honest, because I get so uncomfortable so easily, and having accommodating partners who are understanding is also very important, and has been really important for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, as soon as you said that, I was like, that's where kind of self-advocacy gets connected, and also, us giving ourselves permission to take our needs seriously, where that taps into unmasking, because yeah, if we're in shared space, and then, we're negotiating things like temperature or smells, that's going to involve conversations with other people. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And, you know, we both have supportive partners. We've talked about this on here, and we acknowledge that that's not the case for everybody, and that it's not always safe or comfortable to bring some of this stuff up. And I feel for you all. I mean, that breaks my heart, you know, when I get commentary on social media like, "My boyfriend doesn't understand, my husband doesn't do this, my wife doesn't understand." It's like, I really feel for you all, yeah
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is such a hard situation to be in, yeah, where these basic needs are… there's not a capacity there to understand them or meet a person there, yeah, yeah.
Or also the experience where people are in, like, autistic, autistic, autistic ADHD partnerships, where maybe there is understanding, but like, your needs are really different. One person runs cold, another person runs hot. And then, maybe you're doing it compassionately, but you're still navigating like clashing needs in the same environment, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, I think one of the things that really stood out to me when I started thinking about unmasking, because… First, when I was thinking about masking, I was thinking about all the things I was doing, like scripting and forcing eye contact. But what really hit me one day was when I realized all of the things I was repressing, like how I had basically taught my body to repress the natural instincts that self-soothed it. So, repressing movement that soothed, repressing, you know, yeah, like eye gaze avoidance.
And how that, over time, taught me not to trust my body, because it taught me that what your body needs isn't what the situation needs. And so, overriding my body's instincts and prioritizing, like, the comfort of people around me.
And once I was able to name that, that to me, feels like such a important piece of the unmasking experience. Again, this can be a private part, a private experience of learning to re-trust our body's instincts, because for a lot of us, what masking has meant is learning to override them and not trust them. And so, however that looks. And I think, again, a lot of that is through experimentation, but that, to me, is a really important piece of unmasking, is, how do I start to rebuild my trust in what my body is telling me it wants and needs to regulate?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, such a good point, and it's almost like this reclaiming/rediscovering experience of, at first, really being confused and also having to, like you mentioned, override some of the instincts that are so deeply ingrained in us, because it's just become part of us in a lot of ways.
And I think a lot of people really struggle with the unmasking process, because they're like, well, we've talked about, like, separation from sense of self, right? But, who the hell am I?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: What do I enjoy doing? Like, we've joked around about, controversial now, asking ChatGPT like, what I'll do for hobbies, you know?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's where like, unmasking, it doesn't feel robust enough, because it's not like, "I'm just going to take off the mask." And, oh, there I am, Megan Anna. It's such a more complex process of, it's more untangling.
And there's a metaphor that I've heard that I like, the idea it's of unearthing, kind of. And I like the rootedness of that, versus unmasking. And kind of coming back to our roots. And, yeah, I like kind of more earthy, grounded metaphors for this process, because it is a complex process, and it's a slow process, and it's a deep process. And it's a process of slowly nurturing and letting kind of unfurl, like, kind of who the person is that's been tangled up and all of this other stuff.
PATRICK CASALE: I like that. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, for a lot of you who are listening, maybe have discovered later in life, there's probably going to be some messiness here and confusion.
MEGAN NEFF: Because relationships can change, too, as part of that, like, if some of our core relationships have forged through, like our more performative self, that can be really hard for partners, for friends, for family members, to see that shift. And so, relationships might shift as part of that.
Because there is so much more discovery of adults happening right now, I would be curious if there was any kind of research on, like divorces or like long-term relationship endings afterward, just what that experience is like, because it would make sense to me that there'd be some pretty big relational shifts for a lot of people after a discovery like this.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%. I think that would be spot on, because, you know, masking and being more performative or showing up as your inauthentic self, then all of a sudden, it's like, this is not really who I am.
And you've talked so much about, like, the process of neuroqueering after discovery, and a lot can change, I mean. So, I think that would be interesting to navigate and to learn more about.
I'm also thinking about, like, how COVID, as horrific as the onset was, I know we're still dealing with COVID, and a lot of people working from home and working remotely, and the correlation there, obviously, with, like, more people discovering that they are, in fact, autistic, because all of a sudden, you're in your home, potentially, without workplace stressors that you have to experience on a daily basis, and you're unmasking more, even if you are unmasking subconsciously, and all of a sudden, it's like, "Huh? What the hell is happening here?"
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. When I think about, like, the drivers of the more adult identification, I think COVID is a huge one, for sure, for sure.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And the pandemic, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Your workplace with your fluorescent lights, and co-workers, and whatever else, and it's just like, "Oh, I just get to be in my house and exist here. This is kind of an interesting experience."
MEGAN NEFF: And it also became a driver for ADHD, but sometimes for different reasons. One of the things I was seeing because I was working at the clinic the first year, like the hospital clinic, in person, and we were getting a lot of ADHD referrals. And this is before I had discovered.
And so, a lot of adults with the collapse of work structure were struggling from working from home. And so, that was leading to more ADHD diagnoses, because they were really relying on the rhythms and the structure of external work. And then, working from home wasn't working well.
And that's got to be an interesting experience for those of us like us, however you say it, AuDHD, where it's like from a sensory perspective, love working from home, from an executive functioning, there was something about going to an office that, like, task initiation was just easier than it is from home. And so, there's kind of probably more pros and cons.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, we haven't really talked about this. But like, ADHD masking can also be a thing. We've kind of been focusing on autistic masking, but ADHD masking can also be a thing that is energy costly and depleting.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I think anytime we're not being our authentic selves and suppressing our natural instincts, and experiences, and our natural traits it's like it's going to be an energy suck regardless of neuro type two.
And you know, I think a lot of people of color, you know, have to mask in so many situations who may not be ADHD or autistic, and the energy drain that comes with code switching and masking in workplaces, and just in different social settings and environments for safety sake, having to be constantly vigilant about that too. So, yeah, it's exhausting, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yep.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, I feel like we did a decent enough job of tying in positive with drain and negativity, which is the sweet spot.
MEGAN NEFF: I'd be so curious to watch our, like, episode downloads, just like drop this season, because I would say we're being more unmasked than we've… And I think it's progressed. If you go from like when we were recording weekly to like last season to this season, I feel like we are progressively being more unmasked in how we're showing up. Whoa, wouldn't that be interesting if we're showing up unmasked and then the podcast [INDISCERNIBLE 00:43:22].
PATRICK CASALE: Just tanks.
MEGAN NEFF: To say like, “This is too depressing to listen to.” Like, that'd be funny.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'll pay attention to the analytics. Let us know if you like the podcast more over the last two seasons or prior to that, so we can get a sense. I mean, I pay attention to all the analytics, because I do a lot of the sponsorship conversations, and you all still like us for one reason or another, so we'll take it. Appreciate your support.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, they haven't seen it when we're both depressed, yet. That's new territory.
PATRICK CASALE: That's a good point. Well, last year, I mean, you've publicly talked about where you were at, mentally and with your, like, pain and your health in the winter/fall, and I definitely was not in a good place, so…
MEGAN NEFF: I don't even remember what we talked about last winter. We probably had guests on and we were probably doing series, which was probably a way of distancing from the fact we were struggling, was by focusing on object-based conversations. And yeah, we're doing a little bit less of that.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And I also think we weren't recording during like…
MEGAN NEFF: The world was different. We had a slightly different political landscape.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, that. The world was different, and we can all read between the lines. Yeah, I think that plays a role too, just the stress of life at the moment. Anyway, [CROSSTALK 00:45:02]-
MEGAN NEFF: And on that note.
PATRICK CASALE: …so, you know, we are almost done with this series and this collection. We have ideas for what comes next in between breaks and just trying to figure that out. But if you do ever have suggestions, you know, we're always open to hearing them. We may not take them, but you know, please feel free to send them in. And I think the collections are working, you know, pacing system. This is a pacing system.
MEGAN NEFF: Also, my team mentioned, let's please stick to seasons or series, because on the graphics, it's seasons. We've talked about series before in the past, and now we're introducing a new word, collection.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, I was just pulling that from, you always said, how much you like collections.
MEGAN NEFF: I do like collections.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay.
MEGAN NEFF: But the other thing, so my team is helping me with this. So, I have a lot of digital products where I have, like, two different names for the same product. I'm very ADHD in my inconsistency of naming things, so we're now going through and making all of the names consistent.
PATRICK CASALE: Got it. What are we calling it?
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I don't know. We keep going back and forth between like what are we calling them new seasons, even though they're only, like, eight episodes. So, we could stick with seasons because it's on the graphics.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Or we could pivot to series, but my team tells me collections would be a new word.
PATRICK CASALE: Not to you.
MEGAN NEFF: At least to like the way we've been systematizing everything.
PATRICK CASALE: To everyone, lose all of that information in your brains for the last two minutes. Yes, series or seasons. We'll figure that piece out with a series or season name that comes out for these eight episodes as well. Anyway, this is a good indication that my brain is done, so I'm honoring that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, let's honor that. I will see you tomorrow, Patrick, where we will record more, and we will see listeners. Well, no, we won't see listeners.
PATRICK CASALE: On all major platforms and YouTube, you can like, download, subscribe, and share. Goodbye.
