Episode 117 (Season 3): Autistic Burnout City: Energy Limits and Management
Jul 31, 2025
Show Notes
Autistic burnout can feel like you’re running on empty: emotionally, physically, or both. Managing energy, burnout, and self-acceptance in a neurotypical world can be exhausting, especially for neurodivergent people navigating chronic fatigue, sensory overload, and internalized expectations.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the lived experience of burnout, depleted energy, and the ongoing struggle to honor personal limits. Through honest dialogue, they dig deep into pacing systems like spoon theory, the boom-and-bust recovery cycle, and the strategies (and grief) involved in energy management for neurodivergent folks. They also share laughter, relatable moments, and useful frameworks for understanding and advocating for your energy needs.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Gain a practical understanding of energy pacing systems: including spoon theory and chronic illness frameworks, and hear how these concepts can help you manage your day-to-day life.
- Learn why naming and honoring your energy limits is inseparable from self-compassion, grief work, and dismantling internalized ableism, with candid stories straight from Patrick and Megan Anna’s lived experiences.
- Discover actionable strategies for mapping your energy rhythms, advocating for your needs, and building routines that recognize both what drains and what restores you—so you can move toward a more sustainable life.
If you’ve ever struggled with burnout, chronic fatigue, or simply wished for more permission to rest, remember that honoring your energy needs is not weakness—it’s a vital act of self-respect.
Resources
- Spoon Theory for Neurodivergent Adults: neurodivergentinsights.com/spoon-theory
- Neurodivergent Insights Resource on Autistic Burnout: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
- The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
- Check out Neurodivergent Insights’ Library of Boundary Scripts (free resource): neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/Boundary-Statements-17da17a4bb8b80c9a45dc8ff9c651725
- Relaxation Scripts: students.dartmouth.edu/wellness-center/wellness-mindfulness/mindfulness-meditation/guided-recordings
- Muscle Relaxation: students.dartmouth.edu/wellness-center/wellness-mindfulness/mindfulness-meditation/guided-recordings/progressive-muscle-relaxation
Sensory Checklists
- Sensory Preferences: neurodivergentinsights.com/sensory-preferences-the-complete-checklist
- Sensory Soothers: neurodivergentinsights.com/sensory-calming-techniques
- Sensory Triggers: neurodivergentinsights.com/understanding-and-managing-sensory-overload
Divergent Conversations Podcast Episodes:
- Episode 2: Autistic Burnout (divergentpod.com/2)
- Episode 47: Autistic Burnout (Part 2): A Deep Dive Into The Diversity of Burnout (divergentpod.com/47)
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Thanks to Our Sponsors: Landmark College & Neurodivergent Insights
Landmark College is the world's first accredited college designed exclusively for students who learn differently. Landmark, located in Putney, Vermont, offers courses in person and online, awarding associate and bachelor's degrees, and offering pre-college, gap year, and professional development programs for educators who work with neurodivergent students. With a student-to-faculty ratio of just 7 to 1, and the renowned Landmark College Institute for Research and Training, Landmark offers personalized and research-informed support for neurodivergent students that is not available at traditional colleges. Enrollment is still open for Fall 2025. Learn more about this opportunity at landmark.edu.
✨ Neurodivergent Insights Autistic Burnout Resources
If you’d like to supplement your learning on burnout, you can check out Neurodivergent Insights' resources on burnout. We have articles, an Autistic Burnout course, workbooks, and print books! Visit: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. I’m trying to find the words.
MEGAN NEFF: Welcome back.
PATRICK CASALE: Welcome back to episode five.
MEGAN NEFF: Welcome back to burnout hell cities, hellscape city.
PATRICK CASALE: Welcome to-
MEGAN NEFF: We're so glad you're here. We're so glad to be here.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh my God, I have to laugh at this because, like-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm just excited.
MEGAN NEFF: I feel like we should give our listeners some context, though, because they're probably like, "What is this?"
PATRICK CASALE: We both have-
MEGAN NEFF: This is even more awkward than their typical…
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, we've deteriorated into madness.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so we hopped on, I don't know, five minutes ago, six minutes ago. And I think the first words out of my mouth were like, "We are a sorry sack."
PATRICK CASALE: So, we are talking about our current mental states and physical states, and we're both going through it. And I said to Megan Anna, "What are we talking about today?" And she's like, "Energy, sleep."
MEGAN NEFF: Energy management. And we're both like, "I don't know." So, we'll talk about spoon theory. Are we, like, negative spoons? We're in a spoon deficit.
PATRICK CASALE: Without a doubt. Yeah, I was-
MEGAN NEFF: I'm eating with my hands.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'm not even able to eat at this moment.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I was like, actually, if I'm able to eat it's like my face is just hitting the plate.
PATRICK CASALE: I have the good visual that's just like, face planning into it over and over again, just trying to, like, somehow get the nutrients. We're struggling y'all, for different reasons and the same reasons all intertwined, but it's so fascinating to me. I was saying before we started recording, that our last collection was on, like, not your typical wellness, here are some tips, here are some strategies. Like, here's stuff that goes against the grain. We are doing a burnout series and we are in it. I just have to laugh at it, because, like, otherwise, it's so painful and isolating. It's just…
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, that's part of the neurodivergent wellness series we talked about, is like connection, authenticity, playfulness. Like, we're laughing, which this is the happiest my mood has been all day. So, I think we're doing the things we talked about.
And also, yeah, I feel like it's important that we're, like, honest with folks. I mean, and also, I don't think you and I would be able to record, like, that's kind of our thing, is authenticity. And like, well, we could record, it would be a terrible episode if we were like, "Here are our tips, and here's how we're managing our energy, and we're doing great."
PATRICK CASALE: If those words ever come from my mouth you know I have been kidnapped and someone is trying to ransom me.
MEGAN NEFF: Or that it's deep AI fake.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, I was just listening to an interview with someone, or an interview about, like, the dangers of how AI is going to, like, kill humanity, which I'm just kind of like sitting on the sidelines of all the AI conversations, because I'm like, "This is all so interesting. And I don't have a strong opinion about if it means the end of humanity or not."
But the person doing the interview, like the CEO interview person, I forget his name, in the UK, but someone made an advertisement using his face and name and put it on Facebook. And it was like an advertisement for a scam, but because people trust him, like they were clicking on it. And I was like, "That is horrifying and terrifying."
Like, so, Patrick, someone could make an AI advertisement of you, you know, using all this positive, like, language of, “Check out this amazing energy system and you'll feel great.” So, if people ever see that advertisement, Patrick, know that it's deep fake AI and not actually Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Or maybe it's like my alter ego creating the cult that everyone says I should have been creating a long time ago, but, yeah, it's horrifying, it’s horrifying. Okay.
MEGAN NEFF: So, we've diverged.
PATRICK CASALE: So, we've diverged.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay. So, yeah, you're a bit sick. I'm recovering from, like, a big sensory week, and what I was saying, which I feel fine saying here is like, I've noticed I've dipped into a depressive state, which I was not totally surprised by. But I also forgot how much I hate depression and how like powerful depressed mind is. So, that's why I'm struggling.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I was also saying, like, when we were messaging, I knew you were struggling just based on our conversation in the drop off. And I was like, "Huh, I bet that she went into a like, depression while she was off." Because you kind of alluded to the fact that it was probably coming, right? And then, like, sensory overwhelmed too, and just everything else, in general.
And I've been sick for like, four days, and it came on rapidly. No COVID, no flu, no strep, sore throat where you're, like, feeling like you're swallowing glass, feverish, all the things. And this is just so common for me, and it makes me so fucking angry. Like, I get so frustrated. I get so frustrated with my immune system. I get so frustrated with the fact that I'm sick constantly, and I don't like going into that space mentally, I really don't. But like, it's middle of June, and everyone's like, "It's summertime and you're supposed to be outside, and it feels great, and you have more energy." And I'm like, "No, I feel so awful. And I wish it was dark and raining all the time." I really do. I really do.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It's just…
MEGAN NEFF: No, I totally get that, Patrick, because, yeah, every time I get sick, there's like, the discomfort, and just misery, and the sensory misery of being sick. But then, there is also that narrative of like, and I'm like, "I'm always sick. This is my life." Like, I can really easily, especially if I'm also depressed, dip into it catastrophic narrative around being sick, and around the immune system, and the energy limits. And okay, that will tap into our episodes.
So, today, like, same thing with sensory, like that was a lot of it last week, for me, was confronting my sensory limits, not being able to, like, be with my kids in the way I wanted to, or to interact with, like, my sister in laws. So, whether it's energy limits from sensory stuff or sickness, like, yeah, there's so much that comes up for that.
Whenever I'm bumping into an energy limitation, I can't say the word, but I feel claustrophobic, and that's when I get into, like, a pretty negative spiral. And, yeah, I think my depressive episode is more than that, but that, I think was kind of part of the triggering narrative that got me pretty into despair, which was fun, sarcasm.
PATRICK CASALE: I really feel for you on that. And I can, like, hear the heaviness and the painfulness that comes with that statement of understanding and confronting limitations. And for everyone listening, that was a Megan Anna-ism, claustrophobic, aka claustrophobic, for those of you who may post, where's this word?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, do you know what my team told me this week? So, I think I can probably talk about it now, because I think it'll be announced soon. The book I'm working on this year is on the autistic ADHD experience, and it's called, well, the title might change, but it's got AuDHD in the title. And my team was like, they're like, "I hope you're not embarrassed, but I just want you to know, every time you say it on the podcast, you say AuDHD." And they were like, phonetically, trying to walk me through how to say it. And I like, so AuDHD. I still can't do it. But I figure I have two years before this book comes out to learn how to say AuDHD.
PATRICK CASALE: You just did it right there. Boom. You know, you've said this before on the podcast, and it was one of those moments similarly to, like, back in the day, when you did say claustrophobic, where I literally thought to myself, "Oh, I've been saying the word wrong this entire time." And then, I just never thought much more of it. I was just like, "Do I need to, like, go back and look at the phonetics of what I'm saying?" But thank you for verifying that for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, that was the first thing I was like, "I wonder if I've been misleading Patrick. I wonder if he's been saying it because I am just, like, 'AuDHD.'" Or whatever I say it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you say it with such confidence too, so [CROSSTALK 00:12:12]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:12:22] Megan, on this.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, maybe I contribute some good to the world, but I've also contributed a lot of bad phonetics to the world.
PATRICK CASALE: More good than bad, so we'll take the good with the bad. Okay, you can tell how much divergent is happening already where our brains are at, I think, like we're struggling. Again, so trying to think of how to frame this, but yeah, we want to talk about energy pacing systems, spoon theory.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I can do, like, my little info dump.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: So, pacing systems, I first learned about them when I was working, again, in hospital setting, with people with chronic health conditions. So, pacing systems, it's not like unique to neurodivergent people at all. It's been a part of, kind of, health management for a long time.
And it's this idea of pacing out our energy, because otherwise, what tends to happen is we fall into the boom or bust cycle. And I think neurodivergent people, we tend to do that in general. And I think some acceptance of the boom or bust cycle is actually pretty important for neurodivergent people. But I'm describing it from the context of either chronic pain or chronic health. The way the boom or bust cycle is conceptualized is, basically, when you have good energy or when you have a low pain day, and I know both you and I live with chronic pain, so we can relate to this as well, from a pain perspective.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: When we have a low pain day or good energy day, partly, what we're just saying about, like, when we're not sick, when we're not sensory overwhelmed, when we're not confronting our limits, it feels so good. So, then it's like, let me cram everything into this day. Like, probably, when you recover from your sickness, you're going to be like, "Oh my gosh, I have my energy back." And then, you're going to try and do so much.
So, then we tend to overexert ourself, especially, if energy or like, less pain is an uncommon experience for us, but we override then, like, our bandwidth or our capacity. And so, then, we fall into a bust. And then, we slowly rebuild, and we tend to then have another boom.
And I'm doing this with my hands, but like, there's a chart I like to draw out for people. It's like the first boom, and then the first bust. It's like the boom is really high. And then, the second cycle, the boom. So, like, let's say it goes up to a nine, on a one to 10 scale.
The next like, boom day goes up to like an eight because you don't have as much energy. And then, you bust a bit deeper. And then, the next time you come up, it's up to like a six. So, over time, the boom days, like the high capacity days get diminished or lower, but the bust get deeper and longer to recover from.
And so, that's a really common cycle for anyone who's struggling with chronic pain or chronic fatigue is that boom or bust cycle. So, we want help getting out of that, and that's where, like pacing systems is it gives us some sort of framework to think about, okay, what kind of energy expenditure do I actually have? And then, where am I building in breaks before I'm hitting that bust point? So, what we're trying to do is, basically, build a slightly more even line versus this really spiky line, like the boom or bust.
And so, there's different frameworks out there. We can talk about some of them, but that's the concept behind it. So, for example, with like chronic pain, maybe you're vacuuming and your pain gets to, like a yellow, you'd actually stop there to do something restorative instead of pushing through till the pains out of red, and then, similar with energy.
So, first of all, I'm curious what you think about that framework, or-
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: …if that cycle sounds familiar to you?
PATRICK CASALE: Well, yes. And I think for a lot of us who are all-or-nothing thinkers, and sometimes all-or-nothing people in terms of personality, style, like when you're describing, let's stop vacuuming it yellow to avoid red, right? And not push through the limit. I think immediately, to so many of us who probably are like, “But I need to get it done. Like, I need to get this done because I don't know when I'm going to be able to do it again, or when I'm going to have the energy, or the desire, or whatever.”
MEGAN NEFF: Or remember, thank you ADHD, yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: That is what I struggle with. Is like, when I'm in it, I've got to be in it, and like, I cannot pull myself out, or have a hard time pulling myself out, because of all of those reasons. And I would love to have less of that hand motions if you're not watching on YouTube spiky profile, because having some plateau or leveling it out, you know, and just allowing you to conserve just even 1% of that energy, opposed to going into the negative, or that reserve that you don't really have built up.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I spaced out at the end, actually.
PATRICK CASALE: I think [CROSSTALK 00:17:33]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:17:33] like, yeah, absolutely, and like, shit, what's the last thing I remember Patrick saying. Here goes my hand motion.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yep, yep. So, yeah, I think those pacing systems, and trying to learn how to track your limitations, and to remove yourself when you're noticing those highs and those lows.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think there's a few things pacing systems do for neurodivergent folks. Like, one, I think anything that gives us language to describe, like, our energy limits or our sensory limits, is helpful for self-advocacy. Like, if we can communicate to someone I don't have the spoons for that, or I don't have the energy. There's a few different, like, energy, accounting is another pacing system that an autistic person came up with that. So, it's like, or actually my favorite, this came up in my community, because people are like, "What the hell is up with spoons?" Which I'll explain the backstory. Because I feel like spoon theory makes so much more sense when you know the backstory.
But people can be like, "This is so weird. Why would I tell people how many spoons I have?" And so, an alternative is fuck bucks, which I find, people who hate spoon theory, I find tend to like, fuck bucks. Like, sorry, I'm all out of fuck bucks for today.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:18:54] before, I need to use that immediately.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I can't ever see you using spoon theory, but I can see you're using a fuck bucks theory.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay, I like that. Yeah, can you tell everyone the background behind spoon theory? Because what I think a lot of people hear from people is like, “I'm out of spoons.” Right? And either the person receiving that is like, "What the hell does that mean?" Or like-
MEGAN NEFF: Like, do you need me to go get you more spoons? Like, what is going on?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. Or, like, people sometimes will refer to things like a spoonies. Yeah, and again, another situation where someone is probably like, "What the fuck does that mean?"
MEGAN NEFF: What is a spoonie? Yeah. Okay, so because phonetics, I'm going to mispronounce the last name, I'm sure, but Christine Miserandino. So, she's a Lupus patient. So, again, this comes from like disability and chronic illness advocacy space. So, I think it was when she was in college. She was at a diner with her friend. And the friend was asking, what is it like to experience lupus? And Christine, like, kind of, I think she kept doing, maybe some medical definitions, and finally, she was understanding the friend was trying to ask, like, what is the experience of it?
So, again, through out a diner. And I like that Christine is a visual processor. So, she grabs all the spoons on the table and grabs the spoons from the other table, and then lays them out. And is like, okay, it's like when you wake up and let's say you have 12 spoons for the day, okay? You take a shower. That's a spoon. You take a spoon away. Okay, you get dressed, that's a spoon, and you take a spoon away. And she was using this metaphor to describe kind of, it's you wake up with a limited capacity of spoons, and then things take it, versus maybe a more replenishable supply of spoons.
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: And so, this became the working metaphor. And it's just because it's what was around in the diner, and it was a unit of energy that made the metaphor she was trying to describe visual.
And then, this sort of took off in the disability space. And so, people who call themselves spoonies, it's kind of a like affirming, warm way of connecting with, like, someone who has some sort of chronic illness or some sort of limitation on their energy. And so, that's the kind of enduring term that came off.
So, I feel like understanding that backstory of there's, actually, like a visual context and story for why people say spoon theory. Because, yeah, otherwise, it's like, why we're talking about spoons here.
PATRICK CASALE: And you know, for those of you listening, you know, there are so many analogies that can make sense there, right? Like, I've heard people that I've come in close proximity with talking about how it's like your life force on a video game or, you know, your cell phone battery, whatever.
But in reality, the thing that gets missed a lot when we're talking about, okay, if I have 12 spoons for the day, and each task takes a spoon, and it's really hard to, like, regenerate them, or replenish them, the unexpected stuff that happens to you throughout the day, that takes a spoon away. Like, say, you have your morning planned out, and you take your shower, and that spoon is gone. You get dressed, eat breakfast, that spoon is gone. You're getting prepared to start working, all of a sudden, you have an emergency situation that you have to deal with. That might take three to four spoons away. Like, that might not be a situation where, and then all of a sudden, you're working with, you know, two or three left for the day, and your capacity continues to diminish.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and that's going to take extra spoons for autistic people. And I'm hearing more and more people talk about this whole idea of like the predictive model of thinking and how autistic people, I'm going to feel like this is a really simplified view of it, but like, we're a little bit more tied to our predictive maps. And I think, the thinking is kind of we prioritize, like the sensory information in the here and now. And so, our predictive maps are not, like, as accurate as other people's. And so, that's partly why we get so attached to our routines, and to the predictive maps we have, because, like in the moment, predictions are not as flexible or accurate for us.
So, just the unexpected thing happening that doesn't align with, like, our prediction of the day, that in itself, also, is taking energy away. So, there's the unexpected energy, and then that actually depletes people like us a bit more.
So, like, I keep saying I want to make a workbook on fork theory to go with the spoon theory. So, there's also this idea of like fork, which is, have you heard the term like stick a fork in me, I'm done?
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: So, fork theory kind of pairs really well with spoon theory. Fork theory would be more like the aggravators, like the things, so like an unexpected sensory irritant or maybe an unexpected routine change. And so, that's where it's like, I'm hitting these irritants that are making me done. So, like, we could put spoon theory and fork theory together now, then we need to make a knife theory so that we've got, like, a whole culinary experience going on. I'm not sure what knife theory would be. Maybe we can create it together. But [CROSSTALK 00:24:25]-
PATRICK CASALE: I love that. Let's add the asterisk, if any of your team is listening to this episode, do not let Megan Anna start any new workbooks. We talked about this at the beginning of the series. I want that to just be on the record.
MEGAN NEFF: It would be so easy though. It'd be like a 40-page, like, so easy.
PATRICK CASALE: So, here's what happens, right? It would be so easy. And then, that happens, and you go into monotropic manor, and you're creating this workbook. And then, these other things start to get dropped around you. And then, you come out of monotropic focus, and you're like, "Oh, shit. I was supposed to be prepping for this speech that I'm giving, or this training that I'm doing, or this other thing that I've got going on. Now I need to play catch-up."
MEGAN NEFF: I have this fantasy of just canceling all upcoming talks for the next year and just working on this book, not the fork one, the AuDHD, which I cannot pronounce the title of the book [INDISCERNIBLE 00:25:24].
PATRICK CASALE: I have that fantasy every day. I mean, we've talked about this fantasy of like, can we just go somewhere for a very extended period of time and work on these books together, and we don't even have to speak to each other. We can just be in proximity. I fantasize about this more and more.
I actually had Jennifer, I'm hosting a summit in Scotland in like three weeks for about 120 people, which it doesn't matter how I feel about it at the moment. But she texted me today was like, "Do you want to not come?" She was like-
MEGAN NEFF: Whoa.
PATRICK CASALE: "I know you're not doing well. And I think, you know, if it's not worth the energy expenditure." And she's like, "Nobody expects you to come." Well, that's certainly not true. But in reality, I just appreciated that, like, connection, of like acknowledgement of, hey, you've kind of made it known how much you're struggling. I see that. And I just want to offer this as, like, a way to get out of this situation, but…
MEGAN NEFF: She's so kind to you.
PATRICK CASALE: She is.
MEGAN NEFF: I really appreciate Jenn.
PATRICK CASALE: She's probably listening right now and smiling. Yeah, it's just one of those things where, like, we've talked about this before, about how mapping your energy, right? And like, is the juice worth the squeeze? So to speak. Like, is this event or whatever we commit to, and the energy that's going to go into it, is the depletion that comes with the experience, and the sensory overwhelm, and whatever else happens along the way, is that worth it?
And it's so hard to go through every day thinking about that on a consistent basis, but also, like, future planning in that way too.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, that's, I think, where ADHD, like, ties in to the mix in a way that's complex, is, right? There's like now time and not now time. So, for example, yeah, starting to get a few requests for the fall for speaking things and that involve travel. And I'm like, "Well, that sounds fun and shiny. And yeah, my false self is going to have energy for that."
And so, I'm saying yes to these things. And that's partly like that, I think, my ADHD brain, well, and maybe this is just like a human thing. I'm projecting onto my future self, that my future self is not going to be depressed, is going to have energy. And yet, all of the evidence points to the fall being like, typically, a really horrific time for me, energetically and mental health wise. So, yeah.
So, the ADHD bit, I think, makes it hard to plan future… Like, to set our future self well, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure, yeah, exactly. So, you know, it's just I made a post about this, like, AuDHD struggles the other day, about like, dropping into monotropic focus, then the next day, struggling significantly with, like, executive functioning and dropping all the plates that are spinning, so to speak.
MEGAN NEFF: So, this is a way that I, and I'm trying to get better at this. Because what I tend to do, like, right now I'm working on these four trainings for a, like, big training that I'm contributing to. So, my tendency is, like, every day I'm working on these trainings and talks. But what I'm trying to do, and I'm telling myself, once I get through this batch of intense work, this is what I'm going to start doing, is giving myself two days of monotropic focus.
So, one will be on writing this book, like one day a week. Another day a week will be on presentation prep. And then, the days between are my ping pong days where I'm cleaning up the mess of having spent a whole day in monotropic manor.
And so, what I'm trying to do, and I'll report back if I'm successful in this, is to alternate monotropic days with cleanup days because, like, yeah, right. Now what's happening is I spent all last week deep, focused on the presentation, and I'm so overwhelmed with the ping pong that I'm struggling. Like, yesterday was supposed to be my ping pong day, but I was really struggling to do task initiation, because those are not activities that are easy for me. Oh my gosh, my voice.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, I agree. And I've been trying to figure that balancing act out, too. And it's really hard. I was like, writing, writing, writing for this book. Got like 80 pages done last week. I'm like, “Okay, cool. Like that gives me a little bit of a head start before I start traveling.” Next two days were just what you're calling ping pong days. And everything just feels so overwhelming in that space where, like, I feel like messages feel more like demanding, and irritating, and task initiation is harder, and I just feel just so frustrated. And then, I have to do all this dumb administrative shit that I don't care about.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, I am going to, like, try and tap this back into pacing, because I actually think what you're saying, this does connect to thinking about energy rhythms for neurodivergent folks. And then, like, trying to build lives that work a bit more for us. So, like a few things.
One activity I like trying to do is, like, mapping energy rhythms, and that could be daily. So, for example, I know my mornings are really slow, wake up. Like, I've got pretty good brain fog in the morning, but I tend to have more energy at night. Early afternoon is my best creative energy. Then I've also got seasonal energy. Like, I tend to have more energy in the spring, typically the summer, unless I get sick, and then the fall and winter just like, you know?
And then, pairing activities. And then, like, if you've got a menstruation cycle, like, often there's energy shifts and ebbs with that. And then, actually, pairing activities that align with the energy, versus… Because I know, like, if I'm trying to write or do something cognitively overwhelming and it's misaligned with my energy, that task is going to take so much longer. So, it's better for me just to do a different kind of task.
And so, that's a different way of using a pacing system. Like, you know, this idea of talking concretely about energy units doesn't work. I think another way to work with energy is really getting to know your energy rhythms, and then, as best you can, aligning work with your energy rhythms.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like all of that. And just going to always come away from our conversations just like, "Huh, what should I introduce? What should I try out?" And just noticing it more, you know, I think that's a big piece too, is just the acknowledgement and the awareness of some of these ebbs and flows. And some days you're going to wake up with just, not a lot in the tank, you know? And allow it not to be okay when you can.
MEGAN NEFF: I think that was the biggest shift for me, was I used to do a lot of kind of force-based methods. So, like, especially, when I was doing assessment reports, it was like, "Well, I said I was going to do an assessment report today and so I want to do it."
And once I realized it took me, like, three times as long, and took me so much more energy to do that, when I was forcing it, and there just was that friction of working against my energy, versus like, okay, I don't have energy for that, but I could have energy for this. So, giving myself space to pivot and permission to not force, that's probably been the biggest shift I've made around energy management that's been really helpful is, and also, because a lot of us do have interoception struggles, actually paying attention to my energy like, okay, I have some body energy, but not cognitive energy or, okay, I've got some cognitive energy, but I'm slow body energy. So, like just being able to even name what kind of energy I have or don't have.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that, for sure. Anything else that comes to mind with just energy in general, in the context of everything we're talking about as we're starting to move towards wrap up?
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I think the pieces around it helps with self-advocacy to have, like, shared language with people that you're close to. And I would say the piece about interoception awareness, that is partly why it can be helpful to kind of step back and think through what are the energy depleters, and to actually kind of pace around it. Because for some of us, for many of us, we can't necessarily rely on those signals from our body. And also, there might be external signals that were like overcapacity.
I think a good pacing system helps us access more permission and self-compassion around like, but there's often grief work in that, right? Of like, it sucks to wake up with 12 spoons or 15 spoons, or however many energy units or fuck bucks you wake up with.
And there is a reckoning with that, I think, before we can get to that place of giving ourselves permission or self-compassion to be able to acknowledge like, I don't have capacity for that. I really wish I did, and I don't.
So, also, it's not just about, like, mechanically implementing a pacing system. It's about, yeah, the grief that comes with it, but also, the self-compassion and the, like, permission for our needs to matter, permission for, like, our capacity to be what it is without overriding it, and then working through all of that. There's going to be internalized ableism that comes with that of like I should be able to push through. I see other people push through.
So, I think the invitation in this is really how this might give people a portal or an access point to some of the deeper work that many of us need to do when we're working to build a more sustainable life.
PATRICK CASALE: It's really well said, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And you and I still suck at this. Like, we talk about this all the time on the podcast. So, it's also like, it's one thing to know this stuff in our heads, and it's like, it is hard, it is complex to actually implement this, to actually honor it.
PATRICK CASALE: It is, yeah. I was going to wrap this up, but I'll mention that, you know, two weeks ago, I did, kind of like publicly make that statement on my social media that I was going into a low capacity season. My ability to respond to things, to commit to things, to say yes to things, is greatly diminished, and that I was going to step away quite a bit, and stuff like that has been really empowering for me to just, like, acknowledge it and name it. And I've had to do a lot of what we're talking about, of like examining it, unpacking it, and deconstructing it, working through grief and internalized ableism, too, of saying, like, I should be able to push through and say yes to all the things. And it's like, no, you shouldn't, and you can't. Like, the reality is, like, you can't, and having acceptance around that too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard.
PATRICK CASALE: It is, it is, and even in this space that I'm in, sick, like, just existing, still hard, you know? It's hard to honor what you need, and to just support it, and accommodate it. So, want to just encourage you all out there who are listening like it is hard. Like, it's…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, oh, and I don't know, maybe I'm like, yeah, I think I am. I just had a thought of, like, why do people listen to us? It's like, I feel like-
PATRICK CASALE: It's a lot.
MEGAN NEFF: I know. Like, I feel like, well, not always, but like, I feel like we're just kind of sad.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean…
MEGAN NEFF: But we're honest.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:38:11].
MEGAN NEFF: So honest. That's our tagline. No, I was going to say, maybe in an effort to, like, bring a little bit of positivity, as much as it is important to know about, like, the things that are an energy drain for us and pacing it, also, we have things that restore our energy, give us energy, like connection, like play, like humor, like restorative rest. So, as important as it is to understand the things that deplete us, it's equally important to consider the things that give us energy and to find ways to prioritize that as well.
So, yeah, I just wanted to mention energy management isn't just about the negative stuff. It's also about leaning into the things that do spark life and energy in us.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, absolutely. Like a couple of days ago, I went to a farm with some friends, and rolled around, and socialized a bunch of Capybara babies. So, that was really enjoyable and gave me some life for about two hours. So, getting some of that, you know, energy replenished in the ways that feel restorative and connecting too, super important.
MEGAN NEFF: And if listening to us gives you energy, I don't understand why, but cool, keep doing it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And like, download, and subscribe our podcast.
PATRICK CASALE: See you next week.
