Episode 116 (Season 3): Autistic Burnout City: The Sensitive Nervous System

Show Notes

Burnout can feel relentless for Autistic people, especially when our bodies and minds seem to react more intensely to stress than those around us. Understanding how our nervous systems work—and why we may struggle with regulation—can transform self-blame into self-compassion and change the way we approach mental health, relationships, and daily life.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the neurodivergent nervous system as they continue their burnout series. They candidly discuss the science behind nervous system regulation, heart rate variability, and why trauma, sensory sensitivity, or even daily disruptions can have a bigger impact for neurodivergent folks. Drawing from both research and personal experience, Patrick and Megan Anna explore concepts like self-compassion, co-regulation, and practical interventions (including nervous system “mapping,” movement, and completing the stress cycle).

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Learn the physiology behind neurodivergent nervous systems—including why stress responses can feel so overwhelming, and how understanding the difference between a character flaw and neurology can lead to greater self-acceptance.
2. Gain practical tools and self-reflection ideas for mapping your own nervous system responses, recognizing triggers, and building a personalized toolkit for self-regulation and burnout resilience.
3. Hear compassionate, real-world stories from both hosts about managing stress, dealing with chronic pain, navigating trauma, and the ongoing process of building self-knowledge in support of mental health and well-being.

If you’ve ever felt frustrated or ashamed about how you react to stress—or just want to better understand the “why” behind nervous system dysregulation—this episode offers insight, validation, and strategies you can start using today.

Resources

• Neurodivergent Insights Resource on Autistic Burnout: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
• The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
• Check out Neurodivergent Insights’ Library of Boundary Scripts (free resource): neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/Boundary-Statements-17da17a4bb8b80c9a45dc8ff9c651725
• Relaxation Scripts: students.dartmouth.edu/wellness-center/wellness-mindfulness/mindfulness-meditation/guided-recordings
• Muscle Relaxation: students.dartmouth.edu/wellness-center/wellness-mindfulness/mindfulness-meditation/guided-recordings/progressive-muscle-relaxation

Sensory Checklists

• Sensory Preferences: neurodivergentinsights.com/sensory-preferences-the-complete-checklist
• Sensory Soothers: neurodivergentinsights.com/sensory-calming-techniques
• Sensory Triggers: neurodivergentinsights.com/understanding-and-managing-sensory-overload

Divergent Conversations Podcast Episodes:

• Episode 2: Autistic Burnout (divergentpod.com/2)
• Episode 47: Autistic Burnout (Part 2): A Deep Dive Into The Diversity of Burnout (divergentpod.com/47) 

🎙️Listen to more episodes of the Divergent Conversations Podcast here
🎙️Spotify
🎙️Apple
🎙️YouTube Music
▶️ YouTube
💬 Join Divergent Conversations Underground

Thanks to Our Sponsors: Landmark College & The Autistic Burnout Workbook

✨ Landmark College:

Landmark College is the world's first accredited college designed exclusively for students who learn differently. Landmark, located in Putney, Vermont, offers courses in person and online, awarding associate and bachelor's degrees, and offering pre-college, gap year, and professional development programs  for educators who work with neurodivergent students. With a student-to-faculty ratio of just 7 to 1, and the renowned Landmark College Institute for Research and Training, Landmark offers personalized and research-informed support for neurodivergent students that is not available at traditional colleges. Enrollment is still open for Fall 2025. Learn more about this opportunity at landmark.edu.

✨ The Autistic Burnout Workbook:

I'm Dr. Megan Anna Neff, owner of Neurodivergent Insights, and I'm excited to announce the release of my book, The Autistic Burnout Workbook. I'm running a special deal for those who support my work. After you order, you will get a coupon code that you can use toward our store for the same amount. For example, the workbook costs $18.99, so after purchase, you'd get a credit of $18.99 to use in our digital shop or in our Etsy shop, which gets you another digital workbook of your choosing for free. This is technically a pre-order promotion that was originally set to end on March 10th, but for listeners of the podcast, I'm going to extend this deal, so if you buy the book in the next month, you can also redeem this special. Thank you for supporting my work. It means so much to me and I hope that you will find this a helpful resource for you as you continue to build a life that is a bit more resilient to autistic burnout.

• Use the following link to grab this offer: neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/17ea17a4bb8b8034ab2bf9b03c560a64
• After this deal ends, you can use this link to purchase this workbook: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062

💬 Join Divergent Conversations Underground

Divergent Conversations Underground is a space for messy conversations, real connection, and unfinished thoughts in a neurodivergent-affirming community. If you’d like to go deeper with us into more nuanced, searching conversations, join here: divergentconversations.substack.com

Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

All right, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations, where we are continuing our Burnout series. And today, we are talking about nervous system and nervous system regulation. Last week we talked about our sensory systems, so one follows the other, and here we are.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it's all connected.

PATRICK CASALE: It is all connected. So, I will say that a lot of you listening, probably, are somewhat more familiar with the nervous system terminology at times and the sensory system and vice versa. I know for a lot of people really struggle with nervous system terminology as well. So, we're following your workbook. So, if you want to take the lead with this, go ahead.

MEGAN NEFF: So hot potato.

PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, even as we, like, hit record, I'm like, "Oh, how much into it do I like go? It is interesting, because nervous system has kind of become a bit of a fad word, which, I mean, it's cool in the sense that people are actually talking about it. Whereas I think even five years ago, if people were like, "Nervous system regulation." People would be like, "What?" But it also sometimes, with it becoming pop, there's also, then, like, the risk of, I guess, oversimplification.

But yeah, nervous systems matter. And one thing that I like talking about and talk about a bit is the neurodivergent nervous system. I honestly can't remember what rabbit trail got me onto this, but I think I just got curious if there was any connection to, like, nervous system states and autism. I can't remember what I searched for. But I came across this research that looked at heart rate variability. So, okay, this is getting kind of nerdy. So, not to be confused with heart rate. So, our heart rate, how much it beats per minute.

Typically, a lower heartbeat is associated with health, not always, but, you know, typically. Heart rate variability is different. It's how much variability is there between heartbeats, and a higher heart rate variability is more often associated with health because it's like a flexible nervous system. I think about it as clay that's been warmed up so it's moldable, whereas, if there's less heart rate variability, it's like, okay, your heartbeat goes at this much, and it's more like an icicle. So, it's like an incoming stressor, or like a startle. Like, I have a huge, massive, terrible startle response. I will, literally, like yelp if my dog barks, and I'm in the focus.

And if my nervous system is more like an icicle, it can't, like, move as fast to adapt to incoming things or incoming stressors, whereas, if it was more, like that warm clay, which I would say like my spouse's nervous system is more like that, it's like there's flexibility to adapt to incoming stressors, and incoming signals, and incoming sensory stuff.

And so, again, I can't remember how I found this research, but it was showing a connection between both ADHD, and autism, and lower heart rate variability. So, I will sometimes talk about it as though, like, more rigid, neurodivergent nervous system.

For me, learning that helped me move through a lot of shame and unlock a lot more compassion, because it names something that was part of my experience for a long time, which was I just react more strongly and intensely to stressors than the people around me. And it's not in my conscious control. Like, this is part of my wiring, and for me, that was really helpful to learn and understand.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'm sure that created a lot of self-compassion in those moments too, because when we are talking about, like, sensitivity and sensitive systems, I think so often we've been told how sensitive we are, or how our reactions are so different than a lot of the world around us. So, we can really internalize that, and it can become this, "what is wrong with me" mentality. Like, “Why am I the way that I am?” And I think that creates… Go ahead, sorry.

MEGAN NEFF: Like, at a character level. Like, what's wrong with me at a character level? Versus, oh, like, my neurology like, it's going to flip into a stress state more easily, not because I'm a bad person, not because of moral failures, not because of character, but because my body's having a physiological reaction, like a sneeze. Like, it's just my body being a body.

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. But how many of us are going through life thinking, you know, like-

MEGAN NEFF: No, yeah, we're coding it as character failures.

PATRICK CASALE: And when societal messaging is often that way, not even just for neurodivergent humans, just in general, like the way we react to things is, like, quantified and classified very specifically in a lot of arenas. So, of course, we default to like, this is a personal issue. This is a character flaw. And like you just said, it's my body being a body. 

Like, we were just talking last week about how often did we think about our sensory systems prior to discovery? Not often, sometimes, not often. How often was I thinking about my nervous system prior to understanding more about neurology? Really not often. I definitely wasn't walking through the world thinking that's just my body being a body.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, or like, when we get stressed, again, especially, you know, if we're autistic and there's been a routine disruption, and so we get stressed by it, and then, we're in a stress state in our body. It's not like, "Okay, I wasn't expecting this, and now my body's in, like, hyper arousal." It's, "Why am I so stressed about this?" Like, “Get over it.”

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yep. And that messaging and that communication can also come from partners, friend groups, colleagues, family members, etc. So, if there's a routine disruption and you are autistic, and all of a sudden you are in that hyper arousal space, and someone close to you is saying, "What's the big deal? Like, why are you so stressed out right now?" You internalize that.

MEGAN NEFF: And you also don't know. Like, I'd be like, "Well, I don't know why I'm so stressed."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, which, again, can create even more of that, like, almost shame spiraling of like, why did that just bother me so much?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Like, I understand how I think some people can hear this information, and it feels like it's maybe pathologizing of our nervous system. And I think there's definitely ways it could be messaged that way. But I think this is why my experience of learning about and talking about the more rigid neurodivergent nervous system is ultimately empowering, because there's a reason that makes sense for why I have those reactions, or why I can't be around you know six people and be okay. Like, yeah, it's not a moral failing. It's my nervous system, nervous systeming.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, exactly. So, oh, t-shirt ideas all throughout this series. But I mean, that's so true and your nervous system is there, you know, neurology is there to, like, help protect you, right? And to keep you safe, and to tell you when there's threat. And if that feels like it's more rigid, the threat level is going to feel like it's more constant. There's more consistency to that. And it can be little things that really create pretty big disruptions as well.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, I love that you brought in the language of threat because that's exactly what the nervous system, one of the job is, is like, is this a signal of threat, or is this a signal of safety? And some of the language that I really like is stuff like, how do we build present moment safety, or, how do we cultivate cues of safety that signal to our body you're safe?

And when we learn about nervous system stuff, I think that's part of what we're able to do is then think through what are the threat responses that tell my nervous system you're not safe? Because the nervous system, it doesn't understand modern logic. It's still operating on a lot of, like, very old logic. And so, it often takes intentional cues to say, "Hey, nervous system, actually, it's okay. You're safe right now." 

And when we know what our nervous system, first of all, is up to and that it's responding to threats, and then when we know what helps us to signal cues of safety to our nervous system, we're able to intervene in that process with a little bit more agency. It doesn't mean we're always going to be able to, like, get ourself out of a stress state right away, but it is a way we can support ourselves, either by the narratives we're telling ourselves, or by sensory cues, or even breath work can be a way of sending signals of safety. And so, sorting out, what are the signals of safety that work for you, that help your body register you're actually not in danger right now, you're okay.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this gets really complex and really nuanced in terms of how to parse it apart when we also add in people who have experienced significant trauma, which we know there's such a-

MEGAN NEFF: Many of us have.

PATRICK CASALE: …correlation, right? Between our neurodivergent existence and some potentially either Complex PTSD, PTSD in general. And I think it's hard to sometimes separate, you know what… Go ahead, sorry.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, because a traumatized nervous system is a traumatized nervous system. And yeah, this is just really sobering statistics, and hard to take in. But, so PTSD is a lot more common for autistic folks, I think also for ADHD folks, but there's definitely research around autism. And again, these are from, like, a few studies, but what they found is that we tend to be exposed to more traumas, more victimization, and then on top of that, when we are exposed to traumas, we are more likely to develop PTSD in the aftermath, because not everyone who experiences the trauma will develop PTSD. Most people actually don't.

And I think part of that is that, that trauma is loading onto an already more sensitive nervous system. I think there's other pieces around it too that make us more predisposed to develop PTSD.

And it's interesting, I get this question a lot when I give clinical training, it's like, "Well, is it trauma, or is it autism? Or is it trauma or ADHD?" And one thing, I'll often say, if trauma is in the mix or ADHD, it's almost always both, not always, but it's, yeah. So, it does get really complicated, and for many of us, we're not just living in a, like, neurodivergent nervous system. We're living in a traumatized, neurodivergent nervous system that's intersecting with some complexities.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, very well said. And then, let's add in living in a traumatized state of the world where your nervous system-

MEGAN NEFF: Can we not? Can we go back to monotropic manor?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It's just one of those things where you're constantly, you know, a lot of us are, you know, analyzing a lot behind the scenes. So, I think for me, I'm always constantly asking, is it this is? Is it this? Is it this? Is it this? Is it because of what's happening right now? Is it because of, you know, sensory sensitivity? Is it because of autism? Is it because of ADHD? Is it complex PTSD? A swirling mess of confusion sometimes.

MEGAN NEFF: Well, and it's like, can it be all the things?

PATRICK CASALE: And also, at the end of the day, if it is all the things, does it really necessarily…?

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so I do see this happen a lot where, and I think it makes sense, because I think, especially, autistic minds, we like to pinpoint, but it's like, well, is it RSD? Or is it attachment? Or like, yeah, is it trauma? And sometimes that can be helpful. Sometimes applying a label, it's like, okay, this helps me wrap a narrative around it. It helps me know what's going to help. And then, sometimes it feels like we're splitting hairs, and then we're adding more stress by trying to reduce it to one thing. 

And this is actually why I think talking about nervous system is helpful, is because it encapsulates all of these things, right? So, if it's trauma, absolutely impacts the nervous system in such deep, deep ways. I think being neurodivergent, having sensory hypersensitivities impacts the nervous system. And so, when we can have broader language, like nervous system health and nervous system regulation, it captures all of those experiences, even attachment. Like, our attachment system impacts our nervous system. So, then, we have frameworks where we don't have to be like, "Well, is it this, or is it this, or is it that?" Because we have frameworks that can influence all of those things. Am I making sense?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think it's unbelievably helpful to have those frameworks, because, otherwise, it feels like it's really challenging to either define, or identify, or make sense of in any instance of the word. So, super helpful.

And when we're talking about this as it regards to what we're talking about in this collection or series, burnout, like, it's going to be massively impactful.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Because if we're in a chronically stressed nervous system, we're burning our nervous system out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

So, like, similar to getting to know, like, sensory profile I feel like getting to know, kind of, our nervous system responses, and states, and like the things that do signal threat, the things that bring it back to safety. So, all this goes back to, a lot of it is building that self-knowledge and self-insight around, like, just what the hell is happening in this body of mine?

And I'm not a full proponent of polyvagal theory, but there's interventions that they use that I like. So, like the idea of nervous system mapping comes from the work of polyvagal theory, and that's one that I really like, because it's about getting to know, like, what does, you know, the window of tolerance? So, when I'm in that authentically engaged place, what does that feel like?

And for some of us, that's going to, especially, if it's both complex trauma, and autism, and ADHD, that might be really hard, because it might be that we spend very little time there, but knowing like, what that feels like, what helps us get there, for me, it's often monotropic focus. If I'm struggling to name what the window of tolerance feels like, I think back to like the last time I was in monotropic mode, and I'm like, okay, that's what it feels like. 

And then, knowing what hyper arousal feels like, that kind of fight/flight, amped up, the rubber band, or like for me, the pressure on the chest feeling. And then, knowing what hypo arousal feels like, and that's the fogging out, the kind of dissociation.

So, for me, knowing what triggers. So, I have different triggers, it's interesting, like technology, and shame, and rejection, those are all triggers for hyper arousal for me, and like, feeling confused, feeling like cognitively confused. And then, overwhelm and like, a lot of sensory stuff, and like harder sad emotions, those are all like triggers for hypo arousal for me.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I would agree for the most part that I experience it the same way. I think, like going back to what you just said a little earlier, too, about like creating this library, almost of like, understanding your nervous system, understanding your sensory system, going back to our vision of this monotropic manor, that could be in the library collection. Like, that's an accessible book, e-book, or visual you know, like picture book, textbook that you can access at all times. And it has these things that are easily identifiable for you, so that you can kind of just flip through it when you're experiencing some of this stuff. Because it's like having this resource guide, almost for your systems, is so helpful. Like, to be able to identify so that you're not walking down the street or moving through the world and saying, “That just happened, and that's a character flaw. That's because I reacted poorly. You know, there's something wrong with me in that instance.”

MEGAN NEFF: And I do think that's what kind of happens after discovery, for a lot of us, is we start building this, like, brain, body manual, of like, okay, understanding it, and then knowing what works for it. And I think that is part of just like being okay in the world, but that's also, I think part of burnout resilience, is when we build that kind of resource of knowing our triggers and knowing what supports us.

Yeah, have you found things that do support you when you're either in hyper arousal or hypo arousal, and you're wanting to get into, like, back into a more authentically engaged place?

PATRICK CASALE: I will say that, like, playing soccer really used to help quite a bit, for a lot of reasons. And if I was in fight/flight, certainly very helpful. If I was in more of a dissociated state, it was helpful, too. And it helped me just get back in my body. I think, like, any sort of physical activity like that, where I was exerting a lot of physical activity and it was really more intense always has helped me get back into my body. The struggle has been the chronic pain that I'm constantly in. It's hard to access that these days, but that was always something that really did help and come quite easily for most of my life.

MEGAN NEFF: It's interesting, we kind of talked on chronic pain earlier in the season. I've often noticed that when people enter like a really steep downward spiral with mental health or addiction, when you trace it back, it often goes back to a chronic pain. And I think it's because exactly what, and I can see the same pattern in myself. Well, first of all, chronic pain is just like a hellish sensory experience, but then you also lose access to, like, the things that were making you okay. 

So, like, yeah, for me too, going and doing intense weights with intense music, like playing basketball, doing hit training, these were the things… So, when I was going through my grad program, like, that's what I would do at lunch, and it got me through. And then, when I lost access to that kind of intense movement, like, it's not been pretty.

PATRICK CASALE: No, no, no. And then, that's a hard part of this, you know, is like losing the access, and then trying to figure out, like, alternatives or creative workarounds, you know? And also, you get everyone, the whole wellness world, telling you, basically, "If you want to feel better or boost your mood, go do some exercise." And it's like, "Yeah, no shit." And also [CROSSTALK 00:23:24]-

MEGAN NEFF: I wish I could.

PATRICK CASALE: …off the couch, or hurt so bad to get up out of the bed that that is all I can do today. So, you know, that's been a frustration. But otherwise, you were mentioning you dropping into like monotropic mode in some of those scenarios. I would say, like, animals, going back to this, just super regulating for me. And being in nature, also very regulating for me. Really helpful. I so often forget to breathe in general that, like, focusing on breathing is not usually useful for me to help regulate my nervous system.

MEGAN NEFF: I hear that a lot from autistic people, which makes me sad, because like, I experienced a lot, like, breath work has been really helpful for me with my anxiety, but it feels like it's 50/50, like, when I do breathwork with autistic people, either it's like, "I hate this. This is terrible. This is making it worse." Or, especially, when they understand the education behind it, it's like, "Oh, wow, that's pretty powerful."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I don't know if it's like, interceptive for me. Like, I just forget to breathe, and I'm like, "Oh, how am I, like, all of a sudden, like, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:24:39]." And I'm sure that also impacts my voice, because we were talking about my voice the other day on the other episode, and how when I notice I'm in burnout, and I'm more stressed, and I'm more fatigued, my voice and the vocal fry increases. But I think a lot of it also comes with the fact that I'm often forgetting to breathe. And, yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I bet it is interoceptive. I've heard other people talk about that, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And then, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Oh my God, I haven't been breathing for three minutes."

MEGAN NEFF: That doesn't seem healthy.

PATRICK CASALE: It's not, it's not, it’s not.

MEGAN NEFF: Wait, but you don't have dyspraxia, do you?

PATRICK CASALE: No.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. It's interesting. I think, yeah, now I'll get curious about it. I think, my thought would have been dyspraxia, and like, kind of motor coordination and needing to consciously do that. But then, no, it does make sense, it would also be interoception.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: You also have, like, low thirst and low like, hunger and low pain.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, that would track. That's interesting.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, I think trying to find these things that, just like we talked about with sensory, you know, making that guidebook for yourself, really having an understanding of your nervous system profile and the things that impact it. If I was to really, you know, we were using imagery before in the last episode, if I really thought about my nervous system overall, I mean, obviously, I highly relate to your description of the like frozen/rigid response. But my Shih Tzu, Hudson's nervous system is almost identical to mine. Like, everything impacts him, everything. And it's the littlest sound out on the porch. It's, you know, a new thing that's happening in the house. It doesn't matter, a change in, like, food. I know that's more, but like, it's just like his nervous system is on high alert all the time.

MEGAN NEFF: My dog is the same, which is why we call him the autistic one. Yeah, it's like so much hypervigilance, yeah. And, I think, it's also about, I think, honoring why our systems are this way. And again, especially, if there's trauma. Like, yeah, it's annoying to have a, like, sensitive nervous system. But also, it's there because it's trying to protect us. And it's like scanning for threat, trying to protect. And I'll sometimes, because I think we have to honor it before we can even think about, like, shifting it.

One of the things that I do talk about is if, when we start increasing awareness of nervous system, one of the traps I see people fall into is to start creating, like, secondary stress or evaluative thoughts about it. So, for example, if you've kind of been unaware of nervous system stuff, and then you start being like, "Oh, I'm in like, kind of hyper arousal, fight/flight, this is bad. I need to, like, get down, or I need to down-regulate." That thought is actually creating, like, a secondary stress, because we're evaluating this as, like, a bad thing, right?

And so, first of all, honoring, I think, why our systems are this way, because they're trying to protect us. But then, also, getting into a more kind of compassionate, non-evaluative, observational response to it, of like, okay, the rubber band is here, or like that, for me, it's like rocks on my chest. And then, I'll maybe try and make sense of why it's there of like, "Well, okay, it makes sense. You're feeling this way." And I'll maybe list a few reasons, “What would you like to do about that now Megan Anna?” Versus, you know, a couple years ago, I think I'd feel that and be like, "This is bad. This is bad for my heart. This is bad for this. I need to get out of this." And then, I'm actually creating, like, a secondary stress response to the fact I'm noticing I'm in a stress response. So, it's not just about noticing, it's also about honoring why that's happening and then, how we're noticing the response in our system.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. It comes with work. You know, if you're sitting here and your immediate reaction is like, "Yeah, I can't access that." That's okay. Like, it's absolutely okay that it can be really challenging to kind of evaluate that experience, the way that Megan Anna just laid that out. And that is absolutely a part of this. Like, you know, we don't want to beat ourselves up more than we already are, and some of us have a really hard time trying to walk through those steps, you know, mentally. 

And I think that comes in waves, you know? Like, I think when I'm elated, when I am more, like, in that authentic engagement space, it's easier for me. And when I'm in burnout, or, you know, things are feeling a lot more dysregulated, I'm like this. "Fuck this. I can't do this at all." Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, exactly. Like, it's a hard thing to do when we don't have much bandwidth to then, like, not just notice it, to be gentle with it. And that's something, I think, we're so good. Many of our brains are so meta that, like, we can have, like, secondary emotions or third emotions. So, even the thing I just said about like, when you're noticing the stress and you're evaluating it, like, I could see some people having like, a third response of noticing the stress and feeling like, and our brains, I think, are uniquely good at snowballing emotions and stress. And I think the biggest thing is just whatever the experience is to be able to like, even if it's for two seconds, tap into like, it makes sense I'm feeling this way.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. You know, co-regulation with your nervous systems too, and I'm just thinking about that as we're sitting here and, like, prior to recording, I was mentioning, like, the rubber band feeling in my body, and I don't feel that anymore. So, co-regulating with people whose nervous systems and your energies can kind of support one another is super helpful.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. I think that's huge for us. And it can be an animal. Like, you talk about animals a lot. Like, it can be an animal.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

MEGAN NEFF: It's interesting, because a lot of the co-regulation nervous system comes from like parent-child. Like, that's often where it's talked about. And the idea being like the parent often will kind of extend our nervous system to our kids who are dysregulated. So, that's like the template I have in mind. But what I'm sitting here thinking on before we started recording both episodes, we both were sharing how we're kind of in an emotionally hard space. So, I wouldn't say either of us were like, super, like, regulated yet we've come together, and I think we have had a co-regulating experience, even though we were both starting in kind of a hard spot.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I'm searching my brain right now to be like, is there anything else that feels not important, but I think you always call them sticky thoughts. But I don't have any thoughts.

MEGAN NEFF: I always like trying to read your face. I was like, is that deeply reflective? Yeah, well, I think there's one other anchoring idea that I have found really helpful, and it's the idea of completing the stress cycle, which this idea originally comes from, like a biochemist, but then it was like later developed by, like, trauma therapists like Dr. Peter Levine, and then the Nagoski sisters who, they wrote a, I think, a book that's really fantastic called Burnout. It's funny, they didn't know that they were autistic when they wrote it. And then, they discovered that afterwards. But it's one of my favorite resources on burnout is their book. And also, they kind of popularize this idea, because they talk about it a lot, the idea of completing the stress cycle.

Okay, trying to synthesize. So, like in the wild, one thing we'll see is, let's say, you know, an antelope or a deer escapes a predator after so it gets that fight/flight, which is, again, very protective. It's helping it run fast. And then, when it gets to safety, you'll see it like shake and tremble. And what it's doing is it's releasing the excess stress from the body so that it can return to some sort of homeostasis.

And this is something that humans, especially, in modern society, we tend to not be very good at completing the stress cycle, partly because we're always getting stressors that aren't signaling like the stressor is done and complete, and you can like equilibrium. So, the idea being, we can still complete the stress cycle, even if the stressor actually isn't fully dealt with. This is what I really like about the Nagoski sisters, is they distinguish, there's a difference between the stressor, the thing causing the stress, and the stress itself. And you can actually move the stress through your body, even if the stressor is still there.

So, like right now in our political climate, we are all living with a lot of stressors that aren't going away anytime soon and we can have practices that complete the stress cycle. So, like, one of the recommendations in their book that I like, because it's just so concrete, is like everyone should spend 20 minutes a day completing their stress cycle. 

And like movement is one of the most effective ways to do that, but it could also be things like progressive muscle relaxation, which, that's what I typically recommend to folks when movements not accessible. So, that's where you, like, create tension, starting in your toes all the way up, and you do tense and release. And what it does is it releases the excess tension from your body.

But also, things like laughter or, you know, again, breath work, or humming, or chanting. There's a lot of different things that will help basically move the stress from our body or trembling. So, that is an idea I like, because it's very concrete, of have I spent some time today, essentially, releasing the stress from my body and completing the stress cycle?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep, it's a great way to do that wherever you are. You can do progressive muscle relaxation exercises. You can find scripts easily, online, available all over the place.

I remember working as a therapist, walking people through progressive muscle relaxation scripts, and I was always like doing them simultaneously, but it just wasn't my style of therapy. So, it was always fascinating that I was defaulted to that without really ever knowing why I was doing it, but I was also doing the exercises simultaneously, was always very helpful. [CROSSTALK 00:36:17]-

MEGAN NEFF: I know. I always liked walking people through it because it was so relaxing, because I can't teach something unless I'm doing it. When I was in behavioral health I would do that a lot, because that kind of fits the behavioral health model. But it is really effective. And I actually want to use it more. When I use it regularly, I'm like, "Oh, this feels so good."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, there are a lot of apps that will walk you through stuff like that too, and be very helpful. And they can also be-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, Dartmouth has, like, a 20-minute audio which we can link here.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a good idea. And it can help with interoceptive awareness too. Sometimes, if I'm like, I'm not feeling certain things within my body, like, tensing and releasing is helpful for me to be like, "Oh, that's what that feels like. Oh, that's what that…" 

Thinking of animals in the wild shaking off all the time. I think about this with our poor Shit Tzu, who is constantly having to shake off, like, while he's on a walk in the neighborhood. I just watch him, and I'm like, "Buddy, I'm so sorry." Like, constantly under threat, constantly feeling overwhelmed, shake it real quick, look okay for a couple seconds, then that's just… Anyway, he's laying next to me, so that's why I'm thinking about it.

MEGAN NEFF: Or like the zoomies, like, whenever our dog gets groomed. Like, he'll come back in and he'll have the zoomies. So, he'll, like, run around, and then, at some point, it occurred to me, like, "Oh, he's completing the stress cycle. How intuitive of him."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: So, it's like, yeah, we all need our human version of the zoomies to complete the stress cycle.

PATRICK CASALE: We do. We do.

MEGAN NEFF: And I think when we don't do that, that is when, like, it's easy, and like, I had a season where, like, binge eating was part of and it would be when I'd come home from a sensory, stressful day. And, like, because I didn't have a way of doing the zoomies, that's where I'd go to things like binge eating or other, like, less helpful ways. And I think what my body was trying to do was complete the stress cycle. But because, first, I didn't know what was happening, but also, I didn't have, like, healthy ways of doing that, then I would go to unhealthy ways of almost like faux zoomies.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Totally makes sense. Okay, I think my brain is done.

MEGAN NEFF: Your brain is done. Okay, let's tell people our goodbye scripts.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:38:51] wrap this one up today [CROSSTALK 00:38:53]-

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, this will be fun.

PATRICK CASALE: …fun for me.

MEGAN NEFF: It's so fun when I do this. So, what would be a like a PDA friendly way to do our outtake? Please do not go like, download, or subscribe. That would be terrible for us, because then more people would find us, and then, we'd be perceived more by more people in the world, and it's really scary to be perceived right now. So, please do not go like, download, or subscribe, or listen to us. How's that, Patrick?

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:39:28] on Fridays, goodbye.