Episode 115 (Season 3): Autistic Burnout City: How Sensory Input Impacts Burnout
Jul 17, 2025
Show Notes
Burnout isn’t just about exhaustion—it’s a sensory experience that can leave neurodivergent people feeling stretched to the breaking point. When every sound, smell, or texture feels overwhelming, how do we navigate recovery and build resilience in a world that rarely slows down?
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the connection between sensory processing and autistic burnout. They share candid reflections on their personal burnout cycles, explore how sensory overwhelm shapes emotional and cognitive well-being, and highlight the critical need for understanding individual sensory profiles. This conversation unpacks the realities of living through burnout—including the constant to-do lists, the elusive pursuit of “just right” sensory environments, and the importance of community support—while providing practical strategies for recovery and prevention.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover how sensory overload and sensory needs play a major role in burnout for Autistic and ADHD people, and pick up strategies for managing sensory overwhelm even when "rest" isn’t an option.
- Hear honest, relatable insights from Patrick and Megan Anna about identifying sensory triggers, living with constant overwhelm, and unlearning narratives around "not being content"—plus the validating realization that everyone’s sensory profile and needs are truly unique.
- Get practical tools to help you map your own sensory landscape, communicate your needs, and take actionable steps toward burnout recovery and prevention—grounded in real-life experiences and evidence-based wisdom.
If you’re feeling stretched thin by sensory and emotional demands, this episode is designed to help you understand why and start reclaiming what makes you feel safe, soothed, and genuinely well.
Resources
- Neurodivergent Insights Resource on Autistic Burnout: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
- The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
- Check out Neurodivergent Insights’ Library of Boundary Scripts (free resource): neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/Boundary-Statements-17da17a4bb8b80c9a45dc8ff9c651725
Sensory Checklists
- Sensory Preferences: neurodivergentinsights.com/sensory-preferences-the-complete-checklist
- Sensory Soothers: neurodivergentinsights.com/sensory-calming-techniques
- Sensory Triggers: neurodivergentinsights.com/understanding-and-managing-sensory-overload
Divergent Conversations Podcast Episodes:
- Episode 2: Autistic Burnout (divergentpod.com/2)
- Episode 47: Autistic Burnout (Part 2): A Deep Dive Into The Diversity of Burnout (divergentpod.com/47)
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Thanks to Our Sponsors: Landmark College & The Autistic Burnout Workbook
Landmark College is the world's first accredited college designed exclusively for students who learn differently. Landmark, located in Putney, Vermont, offers courses in person and online, awarding associate and bachelor's degrees, and offering pre-college, gap year, and professional development programs for educators who work with neurodivergent students. With a student-to-faculty ratio of just 7 to 1, and the renowned Landmark College Institute for Research and Training, Landmark offers personalized and research-informed support for neurodivergent students that is not available at traditional colleges. Enrollment is still open for Fall 2025. Learn more about this opportunity at landmark.edu.
✨ The Autistic Burnout Workbook:
I'm Dr. Megan Anna Neff, owner of Neurodivergent Insights, and I'm excited to announce the release of my book, The Autistic Burnout Workbook. I'm running a special deal for those who support my work. After you order, you will get a coupon code that you can use toward our store for the same amount. For example, the workbook costs $18.99, so after purchase, you'd get a credit of $18.99 to use in our digital shop or in our Etsy shop, which gets you another digital workbook of your choosing for free. This is technically a pre-order promotion that was originally set to end on March 10th, but for listeners of the podcast, I'm going to extend this deal, so if you buy the book in the next month, you can also redeem this special. Thank you for supporting my work. It means so much to me and I hope that you will find this a helpful resource for you as you continue to build a life that is a bit more resilient to autistic burnout.
- Use the following link to grab this offer: neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/17ea17a4bb8b8034ab2bf9b03c560a64
- After this deal ends, you can use this link to purchase this workbook: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
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Divergent Conversations Underground is a space for messy conversations, real connection, and unfinished thoughts in a neurodivergent-affirming community. If you’d like to go deeper with us into more nuanced, searching conversations, join here: divergentconversations.substack.com
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to our collection, which we are kind of calling Burnout City: A Perpetual Sensory Hellscape or something to that degree, which I love.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I think that's the name of episode one. But then, we built a really nice burnout recovery city in episode two. So, maybe it's like twin cities or like, yeah, well, we got to workshop this a bit. But like, Burnout Cities something.
PATRICK CASALE: Burnout Cities something #thesomething. But today, we're going to talk about sensory as a part of burnout recovery and prevention. And I will say, like, I was thinking about this before we started recording while sitting downstairs, like chilling time. And I just feel like my sensory system, because I am in burnout right now, is so fried. Like, I just feel everything so intensely right now. And it's like, what I would describe as like this feeling, and I'm sure you can relate to it sometimes is like, do you ever have that feeling in your chest where the rubber band is just like stretching, and stretching, and stretching, and stretching, and stretching, and then, like everything, the tension that you're carrying feels so heavy and like acute?
MEGAN NEFF: I don't think I'd describe it as a rubber band, but I do know, to me, it's like a crushing sensation on my chest that builds, and builds, and builds. And that's when I'm like, "I need to go work." Because, typically, it's stress building. And the way I dig out of that is by digging out of my massive, massive, never-ending to do list. So, that's like my anxiety 100% funneled into my work. But yeah, so I do know that crushing feeling. But rubber band, that sounds almost more like expand. Like you-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's just like [INDISCERNIBLE 00:05:00] before it snaps. You know what I mean?
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, like-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, no, I don't.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, well-
MEGAN NEFF: But I can, like, visualize it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's the way I'm just thinking about it, is like, it feels like it's just like being pulled and pulled until it's like about to snap. And that's where everything-
MEGAN NEFF: And it-
PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: I was just saying, is the snap the meltdown or the shutdown?
PATRICK CASALE: A meltdown, yeah. And I don't really experience a lot of meltdown, so that's what scares me often with this stuff, is like the intensity of it. It's like this wave, and it's coming in so hard. And it's not dissipating in a peaceful way.
MEGAN NEFF: That is a terrible feeling. So, I am much more comfortable with shutdown feelings than with amp up or meltdown feelings.
PATRICK CASALE: Me too.
MEGAN NEFF: So, when I get free-floating anxiety, like, I will start working really hard to, like, try to get rid of it, which sometimes, of course, makes it worse, because it's like, "How do I get rid of this feeling?" And, yeah.
So, there's this idea of being an emotion minimizer or an emotion maximizer. So, an emotion minimizer would be someone who kind of more, like, deactivates their emotional system, maybe more enters into, like, hypo-arousal type stuff. And then, an emotion maximizer would, like, amplify emotions and more enter into like that, stress, fight/flight, stuff.
I tend to be more of an emotion minimizer. And so, when I am in my emotions, and I would put… So, like emotions are also sensory, is the complex thing, right? So, when I am more in my meltdown, emotion maximizer energy, it is very, very uncomfortable for me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:06:48].
MEGAN NEFF: I don't do well with it.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm in that boat right now because I'm also an emotion minimizer, and I feel much more comfortable going into that place of shutdown and this feeling, because it feels like the meltdown is like right there. Like, it's just right there on the other side, on the verge of, like, collapse. That's what it feels like for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Does it feel like a sneeze that's stuck? Like, that's what comes to my head, is like, when it's like, I have to sneeze, but I can't, but that's not quite it.
PATRICK CASALE: That's not quite it. But it feels like, if like, things were like teeter tottering, and like, you're on a seesaw, and the seesaw starts to really tip this way, and it feels like everything's just about to fall off. That's…
MEGAN NEFF: So, is that when you, because I know you like, go to the rage room a bit? Is that when you'll go to the rage room?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for a lot of reasons, but this is one of those times where I probably should book a visit.
MEGAN NEFF: It sounds like it.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: So, you are specifically in that space today, or like, specifically you've been there for a while?
PATRICK CASALE: I think that I've been there gradually, but I think it's been intensifying. And I think it's been like rapidly intensifying. And today is the day that I have noticed it, like, the most acutely, intensely. I'm just noticing that every little action, like I was kind of mentioning last week is starting to create like ripple effects of like frustration, irritation. Like, you feel like you're dropping all the balls if you're juggling them, like, and I just want to cry. And I never cry. Like, I never fucking cry.
MEGAN NEFF: You don't, yeah, you don't.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And yeah, I'm curious about this. I'm also curious about this for myself. Like, do you know what you need when you're in that headspace?
PATRICK CASALE: In all reality, like, I need complete and utter quiet and removal. I really need, like, quiet and removal right now, and I don't have it, and I know I can't obtain it. I think that's another part of it psychologically, is like, I know there is no "end in sight" because what I really need is like, off the grid type of experience for a bit, and I do not have that. Like, when the walls really start to feel like they're closing in, I don't know why I'm interlocking my fingers like that, for that purpose, and I'm already in burnout, and it's like looking at the calendar, and it's just like…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I literally had this feeling earlier today. So, I did a call on, we're just wrapping up our spring clearing series. So, we did a call on internalized ableism, and it was like, body double. So, then we went off to do reflective exercises, and I was really struggling, because I was like, "I'm so behind, I'm so behind."
So, I started journaling both on internalized ableism, but then, I'm like, "I just feel so behind all the time, and I don't see a way to get out of that." So, I just started listing all of the things I feel really overwhelmed by. And…
PATRICK CASALE: Was that helpful?
MEGAN NEFF: Well, it kind of was, because then it like inspired me to go write an email and ask for an extension on one of the things that was overwhelming me. But, actually, always, even as a kid, I would do that. Like, I'd pull out my like, weekly journal, and I would just brain dump, "Here's all of the things." Because they just peeing in my head. Like, "You got to do this. You got to do this."
So, on one hand, it's helpful, and then on the other hand, like, when I look at the list, I'm like, I have not actually budgeted enough time to do everything. So, then, it's both helpful and it's both stressful.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's what I was imagining. Because I do a lot of that as well, because I almost need to clear it, you know? Like, I need to clear all the thoughts, all the room that this stuff is taking up in my head, get it out there. And then, when I look at it, I'm like, "It is a lot." Like, okay. Because that-
MEGAN NEFF: That's validating, because it's like-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:11:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah, this is a lot.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, it is a lot.
MEGAN NEFF: It can also be overwhelming because it's like, "Well, shoot, I didn't budget enough time for all of this."
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly, exactly. And like we mentioned last week, we're talking about these books that we're writing, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: That have definitive dates on them. And my world really, really, really feels like it is like closing in on itself. I'm just like, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, especially, when there's a big project like that, because it's not an easy close the loop on it. It's like, this will be an open loop for a very long time, and it's a very big project with a lot of pressure.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: You do this trick to yourself where you're like, once I get through X, then life is all-
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, no, this is my problem. So, Luke will, like, try and help me with this a lot, because this is why I over commit, because like, April, I had so many speaking things, because it's Autism Everything. And then, I was like, "Well, when I to get to May." But I forgot that I had… So, I'm making a card deck self-care for autistic people. And I was thinking it'd be a lighter lift, because we're taking some of the content from the book. But that was my May. But I had been like, "Well, when I get through April, I'll have so much time." But then, it was like, "Oh no, my May was totally eaten up by that."
And then, I was like, "Well, when I get to June or to the summer." So, I'll put things in my future, thinking I'm going to magically have time, but I never do.
So, one trick that Luke has been trying to instill into my brain, he's like, "When you get a request, ask yourself, 'If this was in two weeks, would I say yes?'" Because if it's in the fall, I'll be like, "Oh yeah." Because I'll be fine in the fall, because I will have gotten through all these things. But the reality is I'm, typically, not fine. And so, I am trying to get better about that the like two weeks. If I was imagining doing this in two weeks, how would I feel? And if it stresses me out to listen to that.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. That's really smart, Luke. Thank you for that suggestion. You know, it's amazing how different brain types think about stuff like this so drastically differently. Because I think maybe it's like my ADHD side that's like, "Yeah, let me get through this. It's going to be fine." And then, like, it'll open up space for more things, and it'll be fine then too. And I'm like, it's never fine. It is never fine.
And like, that's the hard part about being in autistic burnout is the realization, clear as day, where it's like, it's just never fine. Like, every time we clear it out and get to the next cycle, it is the same. It is more of the same because we continue to perpetuate the same type of existence over and over and over again.
MEGAN NEFF: Speaking of our like, non-existent merch line, I feel like that should be a shirt too. Like, It's Never Fine, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Xander, if you're listening, I need you to start collecting all of these ideas, thoughts, statements we've made that can turn into merch, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: But yeah, no. So, this is interesting, if we were to look at the unique AuADHD burnout like this, I think, would be part of that unique cycle of with the ADHD like we want to take on the new exciting thing, partly, because it gives us an energy boost, and then we're over committing, and then we've got all of the autistic sensitivities, so we've got the autistic burnout, we've got the executive functioning struggles, but we also have that ADHD impulsivity to over commit.
So, really, I wish I could write a book, okay, maybe in five years, the AuADHD burnout workbook, because it is a different beast because of the mind loops we get pulled into around. Well, in the fall, I'm going to have bandwidth for X, Y, Z, so I'm going to commit to it. And then, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: In the winter I'm going to have this restful hibernation season, but then you've run yourself into the fucking ground so intensely that your restful season, albeit like somewhat restful, right? Because I'm not getting off my couch, it's not restorative. And I'm like, that's what it is always missing.
And also, I just want to hold you accountable to this, you are not working on this book or this workbook idea that you just named for the next two years. Take it off the table. Take it off the list, because I know what is going to happen if the wheels start going behind the scenes.
MEGAN NEFF: It actually won't, in the sense that, like, I'm very oversaturated with writing at the moment, with, like, this new book. And then, I'm wanting to update workbooks I've already published that I'm like, "Oh, that's kind of cringy, I'd reword that." So, I'm thankfully at a place… Like, I know I'm over capacity when I'm like, "Oh, that's a cool workbook idea." And I have no interest in touching it.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, good, good, good, good. We're just going to use this example as a public accountability measure, just in case we hear anything differently coming out of Neurodivergent Insights.
MEGAN NEFF: No new workbooks.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:16:12].
MEGAN NEFF: Although I do have like five workbooks that are, like, half done, that there's part of me that's like, "Well." So, like, I have an ADHD burnout workbook that's half done, for example. And I should probably finish that, because people ask about ADHD burnout all the time.
Okay, we were going to talk about sensory stuff and we've diverged, which I think, that's part of it, though, right? Is when we're emotionally overwhelmed or when we're cognitively overwhelmed, like, that is a sensory experience in and of itself. And then, when we're sensory overwhelmed, we have less capacity to hold our emotions or to hold our cognitive overwhelm. So, they all dance together. It's a real fun party.
PATRICK CASALE: That's another t-shirt idea.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, this-
PATRICK CASALE: It's amazing how creative we are sometimes when we are also simultaneously very burnt out.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I mean, that's the generativity. Like, I don't think I'd be creative on my own, but, like, it's the connection to you, and that's part of that, you know, one of the things we've been talking so much about relationship and connection, and community lately. And I would never be able to laugh about burnout outside of, like, my conversation with you, right? That's not something I can do on my own. I can't come up with some stupid ass city. I mean, I could, but it just wouldn't be nearly as fun.
PATRICK CASALE: I shared some of that, like, with my group practice staff, of joking around about what we were creating. Nobody thought it was funny. I thought it was funny.
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, really?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I thought it was so funny. And I'm sure they'll have to listen to it to be like, yeah, that's way funnier when it was in conversation instead of you just texting. And I'm like, "What the fuck?"
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, you know that does make sense. If someone just texted that to me, I'd be like, "Yeah, burnout sucks. Why are you like…?"
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that was basically all of the responses. I was like, "None of you are any fun. So, go back to being [CROSSTALK 00:18:19]-"
MEGAN NEFF: You also have also have to catch people the right energy.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, 100% [INDISCERNIBLE 00:18:23]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Friday the 13th wasn't the day, weirdly enough.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh yeah, it's the 13th. Okay, so sensory. So, okay for context, to orient listeners, we are literally because we were looking for a low lift for this series, going through the Autistic Burnout out workbook, chapter by chapter, and that's deciding our episodes. For the record, I think there are many other chapters that could have been included in this workbook. These are just the things that I've found very fundamental in my work and in my work with neurodivergent people of like, these are some of the things that support more resilience.
So, I feel like a broken record. I talk about sensory stuff all of the time. I think we're going to do a sensory series at some point, but we want to bring in some OTs. This is where I'm so thankful for occupational therapists in the world. Like, Kelly Miller's work has been really influential, a few others, because this is not something that mental health providers, we typically don't get training in this, but like, when our sensory system is dysregulated, we can't emotionally regulate. We can't regulate our focus. So, it's so wild to me that there's therapists, and we talk about autism and ADHD, and we work with it, but without a sensory lens, because you can't regulate emotions or like our minds with without this piece, it's huge.
So, this to me, I don't know about you, Patrick, but for me, post discovery, understanding my sensory system, understanding my sensory profile, understanding my sensory needs, getting curious about what's pleasurable, what's soothing, what's irritating this was, I would say, one of the biggest things to come out of an autistic discovery for me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, I would agree. I think that prior to it, I only thought about senses with the big five. Never even thought about proprioception, interoception. Never thought about [CROSSTALK 00:20:20]-
MEGAN NEFF: I didn't know those words. Like, I wouldn't have [CROSSTALK 00:20:21]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:20:21]-
MEGAN NEFF: What? Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, I didn't think about it. I just knew as, like, a basic frame of reference that I had the ability to smell things. I had the ability to taste things. Like, I never thought about how impacted all of these systems are so regularly, and how much energy I've had to put into building an accommodations in my life for all of the sensory sensitivities, and all of the ways that I don't filter out sensory stimuli, you know? So, like, I never thought about it, not a single second of my life.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like, it's weird in that, in some ways I thought about it. It's just that I think I thought everyone else was having the same experience. So, like, I knew I would avoid the laundry aisle in the grocery store. I also would show up at the laundry store, or, sorry, the grocery store at 7:00 AM right when it opened, so that I could, like, get through my grocery shopping as fast as I could. But I wouldn't have been able to tell you that's because of sensory reasons. I just would have been like, "Well, I like to get there and then get out before there's people."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, which, sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Or like, oh, go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: I was just agreeing with that. I mean, I also want to avoid the people, but yes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, well, that's a sensory experience, being around people. That's one that's really hard for me, is when there's a lot of visual things moving in my periphery. Like, that's really overstimulating for me. So…
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so, like some of the comedies I've sent you to watch clips of, and you're like, "How do you [CROSSTALK 00:21:54]."
MEGAN NEFF: I cannot. How do you do that? Like, any of the comedies you send me, I get overwhelmed within like five seconds of playing it. Like, I honestly don't understand how you watch that shit.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I don't know either. I never thought about it before you said it.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, it's loud, and people are running and screaming. Like, there's the one where people are running and screaming, and then you really, like, what's his name? Will Ferro?
PATRICK CASALE: No, I don't really like… Well, I mean, maybe back in the day, yeah, sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And he, to me, he's what I would call a high sensory person. Like, I just can't take him in. I can appreciate that others find him funny, but that slapstick humor is, like, so over stimulating for me. Like, give me some mellow, dark, like, just dry humor, and I'm there for it.
PATRICK CASALE: And I love that too. I definitely, probably prefer that.
Okay, so prior to discovery, yeah, my explanation for what you just said would have been like, "I just don't like people." And that would have been my answer. Like, I wouldn't have thought about how overwhelmed I felt going in and out of the store, or for any of the reasons.
Also, you know, I talk openly about this on here and everywhere else, but, like gambling addiction, right? Is sensory overload hell, and it's intentionally, and strategically, and psychologically designed that way, right? So, like a casino, for example, is sensory hell, flashing lights, loud noises, people everywhere, smoke in the air from people smoking people. It's just, yeah, sensory hell.
MEGAN NEFF: That's so interesting. Yeah, yeah, sensory hell.
PATRICK CASALE: That I was seeking out.
MEGAN NEFF: That you were seeking out.
PATRICK CASALE: All of the time, and destroying myself with. But I mean, yeah, all of this stuff was stuff that I didn't even bat an eye. And to go even further that we never talked about in my grad school program. Like, I don't remember a single conversation about sensory anything.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, other than, like, when we talked about autism criteria. But even that, it wasn't like a deep understanding.
PATRICK CASALE: No.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, same, same, which is wild, given that therapists work with like, emotions and regulation. And like, it's such a huge part of the human experience, and it influences everything. Like, it influences how we eat. It influences sex. It influences how we experience our emotions. Like, it influences everything.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I think part of what has strange for me is I definitely could have pinpointed stuff, but I just would have been, and maybe I would have… So, I kind of identified with the highly sensitive person, except I didn't, because a lot of the highly sensitive person stuff was like, likes, hugs, and affection. And I'm like, "No."
But I would just kind of laugh at it. I was like, "Well, yeah, if I see someone wearing striped shirts, I get an instant headache. If I'm around someone with cologne or perfume, I get an instant headache. If I'm around chemicals, I get an instant headache." So, it was just like, "I think I'm just sensitive to toxins" I guess, was my narrative around it. But I think that's what's wild to me is like I could literally pinpoint so much I just I couldn't make the connection to, "Oh, sensory processing."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I could never understand why smells, like, especially, food smells, made me so uncomfortable to the point of shutdown. Like, I worked in a lot of restaurants, you know, in college and high school, and just leaving those places or being in those moments, like, how much time did I spend dissociated because I was just in like, sensory shutdown all of the time, or relying on alcohol to get through said experience at all times.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and that goes back to like, we only have our experience, so we don't know that other people are in shutdown, and we typically don't have language for it.
And yeah, like, as a little kid, I remember I would, like, tug at my mom's hand, and typically, when we'd be in public and be like, "Mom, I feel like I'm in a dream. I feel like I'm in a dream." Like, do you feel like you're in a dream? And that was the only language I've had since being a child, is like, "Oh, the dream feelings come over me."
And like, I'd feel it with a lot of dread, and when it would happen, I'd get a lot of negative feelings around it. But there was no indication that other people weren't experiencing that as part of life.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. And if we didn't have parents or caregivers who modeled any of this for us, or understood it, or talked about it, how would we really know that it was any different than anything else that anyone was experiencing? Like, I don't remember having that any of this stuff modeled to me, or discussed, or any of my sensitivities discussed openly. So, I would have never known that everyone else in the world wasn't walking through world the same way, or moving through the world the same way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, that's the weird thing about being like a human and a subjective human, is we only get our subjectivity. We don't get others. Since I was little, I've always said I just want to experience being in someone else's body, like, for a moment. And I think it's because, on some level, I understood that my experience was different, but you literally can't get a reference point. So, that's always been my desires. Like, I just want to, like, you know the like, Freaky Friday movies where you like body swap? Like, I just want to experience someone else's existence even if it's just one minute.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, I can relate a lot. And I always used to think as a kid, like, "Is everyone else's experience as intense as mine is? Like their inner world is, does it feel like this chaotic, and disjointed, and painful at all times." And I'm like, seven years old thinking about this stuff, but like, was never communicating that because I didn't know how to, and yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I remember having similar. I was a pretty sad kid, and wondering, like, if everyone felt those things, like, yeah. When you were talking, I had a fun moment of like, I wish we could Freaky Friday for like, what it would be like for you to be in Megan Anna's experience and me to be in Patrick's? And I feel like I would be in your experience, and I'd be like, "No, thank you."
PATRICK CASALE: I was just going to say, I think about my experience so often, how I wouldn't like want to wish this on my worst enemy. So, I don't think you want-
MEGAN NEFF: I don't think it either, and I don't think you want mine necessarily, but I don't think I want yours.
PATRICK CASALE: No, no, no, no. I actually think about that a lot. I'm like, "Man, I really wouldn't wish my experience my worst enemy." Because I don't know, it's just a lot. It's a lot to handle. So…
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so we both had experience where sensory stuff was impacting us, but we didn't have language for it. Oh, well, one other thought, what part of my experience, because I didn't have language for it, I developed a lot of narratives around it. So, for example, I would decide I must not be content, like with my family, because every time we'd go in public, I'd have this shutdown experience. And I'd have this idea of, like, looking forward to an event, getting to the event, it's a disappointment. And then, when you don't have a narrative for it, it's really easy to create other narratives for it. Do you relate to that of like, were there other narratives that now looking back, you're like, "Oh, that's probably not an accurate narrative? It's just [CROSSTALK 00:29:54]."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I had, like, that identical experience, you know, where I would be excited for an event, or you were told you were supposed to be excited for the event, and I wouldn't be for whatever reason. And then, I think the narrative becomes like, I'm bad. [CROSSTALK 00:30:10]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Like, I hated my wedding, I hated my baby showers. And it's like, what kind of a shit, especially, I think, as a woman, like, those are events you're supposed to be excited about. So, then it's like, what does it mean that I'm not? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I would think a lot like, can you ever be happy? Like, and I think that's why that's like, some of my close friends will, like, joke around with me about my personalities and the way I react to things, but like, sometimes that's like a sensitive touch point of like, "Patrick's never happy, or he's always grumpy, or like he's always this." And it's like, "Yeah. I mean, man one, being friends with me must suck sometimes." And also, like-
MEGAN NEFF: But try being me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, just try this existence, you know? Like, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it is a painful poke, yeah. And it comes from a place of empathy when it comes up, it's not a poke, but that has come up in my marriage of like, will I ever be content? Am I capable of that? And, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: That's a tough one.
MEGAN NEFF: What do you think? Are we capable of happiness, Patrick? Or contentment? Like, happiness feels like too high of a bar.
PATRICK CASALE: Contentment feels really high too. I feel like I can definitively say that I can be content in small doses and spurts. But can I have prolonged contentment and sustained contentment? That I don't have an answer for.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay for you, does that connect to the sensory stuff we're talking about, or does that feel separate?
PATRICK CASALE: I think it is wildly impacted by the sensory stuff, because you've mentioned on here, like the Goldilocks situation, everything has to be just right. And I think about how much effort and energy has to go into things being just right, and how much is also outside of your control in so many situations, right? Like, so it's really hard to feel like there's a lot of optimism at times about things like being just right, so to speak, because there's so many things outside of our control that impact our sensory systems.
MEGAN NEFF: And this is where, like, having, like, high control over our sensory environment. Like, I was forced to make a top five, like, well-being for neurodivergent things, like, you get to have five things to design your well-being. Like, high controlled sensory environment would be in that top five list for me.
PATRICK CASALE: So, if we're in, like, monotropic manner right now, what's the sensory environment like?
MEGAN NEFF: Ooh. I mean, I liked the nests that we co-built. So, the room would be very clean. Like, it's funny, because it's the opposite of what my room is now, because I'm very ADHD in my organization. Like, everything's a mess. If I flipped my camera around, you'd be like, "Well." Like it's a mess.
So, but it'd be very like, almost modern and like light colors. Like, I like whites and grays and clean and like bare walls. And so, there's not visual clutter. There's like, no visual clutter. There'd be greenery, because my eyes, like, just feel restored when there's like plants. So, there'd be some, like, thoughtfully well-crafted plants. There'd be like, wood that was really pleasant to look at. Okay, I just realized I said like, modern and grays, and then, also wood. I can't make up my mind.
PATRICK CASALE: You can both, this is your world.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay. And there'd be some kind of, like coffee, whether it's an espresso machine or, like an espresso machine, something where I could make delicious coffee type beverages that would be like my stim drink. There'd be a fireplace that I could turn on. There'd be like, faux fur slippers and a faux fur rug. Okay, the aesthetics of this room are all over the place, modern faux fur wood, but there'd be like, soft textures and a really comfortable chair by the fire. There'd be really good books. The bed would just be amazing, again, with lots of soft textures. There'd be weight. Yeah, the temperature would be just right. There'd be natural light coming in. There'd be windows I could open for fresh air when I wanted. Yeah, that would be my room. What would your room be?
PATRICK CASALE: So, Megan Anna's his five things was 30 things. And what would be my room? I like to think that I would be very content, like, living in an actual hobbit hole. Like, if I had a hole in like a hill, and it had a round door that I could look at and that could just swing it open, and it was always less than 69 degrees at all times. I need that at… Like, I don't even want to think about it, I just want it to be the perfect temperature, which is often between 60 and 67.
There would be an absence of smells. So, there would be zero smells. I wouldn't smell anything whatsoever. I would not smell food. I would not smell my animal. I wouldn't smell anything, that would be gone.
The lighting would be very dim. It would be very dark in there. I would not want it to be very bright and airy. I think that I would have been good surviving as a cave person at one point in time.
And I think that I would want to have the ability to have, like, quiet space where I knew no matter what was happening around me, I could go into this space and it would be completely quiet. I would not have to hear anything. Yeah, I don't have much more than that.
MEGAN NEFF: I don't think we would visit each other very often.
PATRICK CASALE: No. That's why we can't swap experiences, though, because they're very different. Yeah, I-
MEGAN NEFF: This is, oh, go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: I was thinking like, you were even, like, thinking so far as to like, footwear and things like that. Like, I would think, oh, beverages, that's what was on my mind. I would want like, definitely, something that I can make cold brews at all times with. And I would also need some sort of carbonated beverage maker as well, so I could also have that beverage on hand all the time. I don't like hot beverages, so I don't want any hot beverages in my space whatsoever. Yeah. And then, I think that would be it. Maybe my floor would just be full of like baby animals, and I could just lay on the floor and roll around on the floor with these baby animals at all times. And that would be also very amazing. But they could not smell like anything.
MEGAN NEFF: I have no interest in your world. This is another one where we didn't do like Team Patrick, Team Megan Anna. Like, whose manor do you want to go to?
PATRICK CASALE: Whose wing of the guest house do you want to stay at? Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: But I actually love how different they are, because this is, so part of what I talk about in the chapter and when I give talks is like, the importance of getting to know your sensory profile. Because it's not like there's one autistic sensory profile, or one ADHD profile. It's so unique, especially, because we might be, you know, hyper sensitive in some systems and hypo sensitive in others. So, meaning we receive, like, extra input, or like, it takes more of the signal to receive it.
Like, so for me, I am pretty, like, definitely with smells, and taste, and visual, and sound. Sound is the biggest trigger for me, for shutdown. I'm very hyper-sensitive and tend to be sensory avoidant. Although I do like natural light. But then, with taste, like, give me all the spice, give me all the crunch, give me, like, the more the better. So, like, some metaphors I've heard, it's like a DJ board, which I like that. It's like, you can be, you know, more sensory seeking in some more sensory avoidant and others. And then, of course, these can ebb and flow, and other factors.
But that's where it gets so complex. Like, if you're a therapist, you can't design like, one ideal autistic client therapy room, because every client's needs will be different. What makes it sensory friendly is sensory flexibility.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. And that's so huge, yeah. Because if you walked into my therapy space, and it was very dark, and you were like, "I really need natural lighting."
MEGAN NEFF: And it's interesting, because for me, it's more an emotional thing, and I've had this since I was a kid, but even when the clouds, maybe it's from, I live in Oregon, like, if it's sunny and then the clouds come over the sun, I instantly get a wave of sadness. Like, for me, there's just something about darkness that will instantly bring on sadness. So, like, if I'm already sad, then I maybe want a dark environment, because then it matches, but otherwise, darkness just brings on a wave of sadness.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think it does for so many people, but if the clouds came over the sun for me, I would be like, "Thank you so much. I appreciate that." Like, when I leave here from recording, I'm going to walk down the road to meet a friend for dinner, and I am hoping that the clouds cover the sun as I walk, actually, so fingers crossed.
MEGAN NEFF: You live in the wrong state.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't know what the right state would be, though, because [CROSSTALK 00:40:13]-
MEGAN NEFF: Oregon.
PATRICK CASALE: I couldn't deal with the constant gloominess. Like, I do appreciate sun in times. But like, I don't want it to be hot. I just want to see the sun. So, for example, when I'm in Ireland and it's sunny but it's 60 out, it's great. Like-
MEGAN NEFF: So, I'm the same way, yeah. Like, Colorado has sun without it being hot.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I've also been to Colorado, where I was, like, "Is the sun touching my face?" Because it feels like you're so close due to elevation, where like it's unbearable. But yeah. So, I do like that you made that comment that these preferences and sensitivities differ for everyone. Again, this is not a one-size-fits-all experience.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so back to, like, the burnout and what people can do, I think getting to know your sensory profile is one of the biggest things, because then, you know, like, what does drain you? Because that's a constant drain on the nervous system if we're in sensory dysregulation. And then, a lot of us, especially, those of us identified later in life, or even those identified in childhood, but if they were never trained around sensory stuff, like a lot of us adapt by dissociating from our bodies. So, getting to know like, oh, this, does feel good like.
So, for me, I didn't even know I was unmasking, but when I look back the very first thing I did that I now realize was the first step in unmasking was to go through my clothes and get rid of the stuff that was uncomfortable. Because it was like, why would I wear this? Like, and it was the first time that I was registering this is uncomfortable for me. It's more uncomfortable for me than it is for other humans, and my needs get to matter.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yeah, it's huge. So, I think getting to know your sensory profile is a really important activity that, you know, you can really start to explore now, and kind of get a sense of what you are seeking out what you're avoiding. And I think that does ebb and flow at times as well. Like, there are times where I seek out certain sensations and avoid them in other contexts, and that can change and shift as well.
Do you want to know one sensory pure hell for me and for a lot of humans? Sand in your feet at the beach is the worst feeling on planet Earth. I can't do it. I will wear socks and shoes on the beach, and this is why I hate beach vacations.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I'm doing that in a couple days. I don't mind. I actually, I like the feeling of dry sand, but if it's wet sand and then it's sticking, that's the thing I can't do. But like, I actually like the sensation of walking on dry sand.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I should rephrase that. I agree 100%, I hate, like, the fact that there are outdoor showers at beaches where it's like, "Oh, wash all this sand off of you." And I'm like, "No, this is horrible." So, yeah, that just reminds me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. So, for getting to know profiles, was there a way that you got to know your sensory profile? Was it just like by paying attention? Or…
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think it was just paying more attention and getting a better understanding of what these senses mean, including interoception and proprioception. Because, again, prior to discovery and really honestly, following some of your content earlier on, I was like, "I don't even know what this stuff means." Like, I felt like an idiot where I was like, "I don't even know how to say that word."
MEGAN NEFF: Well, you shouldn't learn from me when it comes to pronouncing any words. I don't know [CROSSTALK 00:43:50]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:43:50].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no. I mean, I didn't know those words until I got into this space either. But like with proprioception, that was really interesting. So that's like, where our body is in space.
And for me, like when I was in college and grad school, I'd always put my bag on my lap. Or even when I go to like doctors, they're like, "Do you want to hang up your bag?" And I'm like, "No, I want it on my lap." And it's like, I need the pressure and the weight, I need that proprioceptive input. Or even the beanies that I often wear, it's like, I do that for proprioceptive input. I didn't know that's why, but now it's like, "Oh."
And so, it is cool to have to realize things that we maybe intuitively do. It's like, oh, there's actually a reason I do this thing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's instinctual like accommodations, right? Without understanding as to why. And that's why a lot of people will wear noise canceling headphones with nothing on them, because, like proprioceptive input can be so soothing and sensory overwhelming spaces like grocery stores.
And I think that for me, proprioceptive understanding and awareness was huge. And sometimes when I really do need that proprioceptive input, Arielle kind of knows, my wife kind of knows. She'll be like, "Do you need me to smush your body back into your body?" And I'll be like, "Yes."
And we didn't know this until, like, a couple of years ago, but now she will just, like, lay on top of me with all of her weight, and like, I'm like, "Okay." And that's where, like, those, like weighted stuffed animals can be really helpful. You know, as a 38-year-old man, I do have a weighted sloth that is on my dresser next to me, and that was not something I would have had before a couple of years ago.
And then. interoceptive awareness, like, I think that's a hard one for people to understand sometimes, is, so do you want to go over kind of briefly what that means?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so that's, basically, registering what's happening on the inside of our bodies. So, it's things like hunger, thirst-
PATRICK CASALE: Thirst.
MEGAN NEFF: Emotions, pain, the urge to pee, the urge to poo. Like, so things like constipation can be more common. And it's also, well, yeah, if you're not getting the urge. Or for like, kids, it's they don't know they have to pee until they have to pee. And then, if they're having to, like, raise their hand and allow the teacher to dismiss them. Like, so that would be speaking of accommodations, like ability to go the bathroom when you feel the urge, because you don't always get that forward urge.
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: So, that's also why alexithymia can be more common for us, because if we're having kind of like dulled registry. And then, with interoceptive awareness, it's like the signals could be dulled, the signals could be intensified, signals could be just hard to differentiate. So, it could be hard to know, like, is my stomach hurting because I'm anxious, or because I'm hungry, or because I'm digesting something. And that, I think, leads to a lot of that kind of alienation of self, but also, again, it makes it really hard to know our needs, or, like I've seen folks where, you know, they have chronic headaches because they're not drinking enough water, because they're not getting thirst signals right. And so, there's so many implications with the interoceptive awareness system.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And then, when we talk about vestibular and I think that's one for people as well, where a lot of people may not have ever even heard that word before.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And that has to do, you know, with balance, and movement, and so, people who are really sensitive here, like things like escalators and movement. And I don't know about you, but I've always been pretty sensitive to movement.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I didn't realize this. You were mentioning, like, looking back, you know, and not realizing until later on in life, I used to be horrified about escalators as a kid, and I would not step on them. Like, I had to like-
MEGAN NEFF: Me too, me too.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I also had this fear that I'd get sucked under. But I think it was a combination of, like, anxiety, fear of, like, I just saw myself getting sucked under between the stairs. So, I would like be there. I'd be, like, trying to step. But then, also, I think there was something about the movement that my body didn't like.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yep, yep, yep. And balance, right? Like, and just being able to balance. I smash into shit all the time. Arielle will be like, "Where did these bruises come from?" And I'm, like, looking at my shins or my legs, I'm like, or my arms. I'm like, "I have no idea. I don't even remember when those got there."
MEGAN NEFF: Totally the same, because I walk into like, doors, and I'd like, just walk into things all the time, and right now I have so many bruises. I'm like, I have no idea where that came from.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Yes, so getting to know our sensory and that's where, I think, first of all, just curiosity about it, language for it, hearing other people talk about it, like, in community, that's huge.
And I'll link to these, I've got, like, some sensory checklists. I really like that, because if you… It's kind of like the open-ended question, if you're like, "Megan, what are your sensory preferences?" I mean, now I could list them, but it's hard to come up with them off the bat. But if I'm looking at a list of like, "Oh, I like open light, Oh, I like lamp light, or dim light." It just feels easier for my brain to wrap around. So, I really like sensory checklists as a way to get to know sensory profile.
Autism Level Up, they've got a bunch of free resources that are really cool, like the Regulator 2.0 where they go through different sensory systems and you check, like, this is energizing, or this is calming, or this is neutral. And I think that's a cool way of thinking about our sensory system, too, of what energizes versus what soothes.
So, for example, if I'm feeling tired but I have work I need to do, I'll like, put on stim music, because I know that energizes me, sensory. I'll get like, a cold carbonated drink, because that energizes me. And so, even thinking through our sensory system from an energy management level is really cool, because it's… Or even what you're talking about with the rubber band of like, okay, I'm in this rubber band place. What is going to be sensory soothing for me in this moment? When we really understand our sensory system, we have so much more that we can work with when we're in those hard moments.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%. Very, very well said. Yeah, so wrap it up time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, because we've got 22 minutes before you have to go.
PATRICK CASALE: I can stretch it a little bit so we can record the next episode, but, yeah. Yeah, so… I can't find my thoughts. If you have enjoyed this series, or the last series, or any of the stuff that we're doing, you can find us on all the major podcast platforms and YouTube. And our episodes come out on Fridays. And Megan Anna is also going to list a lot of her resources to these episodes. So, make sure to like, download, subscribe, and share. And we will see you next week.
