Episode 114 (Season 3): Building Burnout Recovery City: When Your Dog Pees on You and You Don’t Care
Jul 10, 2025
Show Notes
Navigating Autistic burnout can feel overwhelming, especially when recovery advice is often oversimplified or disconnected from the realities of daily life. For many Autistic people, finding real, sustainable strategies to move through burnout isn’t just about willpower; it’s about understanding our needs, honoring our limits, and reclaiming a sense of agency.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the full spectrum of Autistic burnout recovery. They openly explore both the practical strategies and deeper psychological work needed to move forward, balancing tangible tools (like strategic withdrawal, boundary scripts, and sensory supports) with the difficult realities of internalized ableism, grief, and navigating a world that often doesn’t accommodate Autistic needs. Drawing from personal experiences, professional insights, and their own journeys of self-awareness, Patrick and Megan Anna provide a nuanced, relatable conversation for anyone experiencing or supporting someone through Autistic burnout.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Get accessible, concrete strategies for managing day-to-day demands, sensory overload, and boundary-setting while recovering from Autistic burnout—plus ideas for making these tools kinder and easier to use (like ready-to-go scripts for social withdrawal).
- Hear an honest conversation about the emotional depth of burnout recovery—including attachment wounds, internalized ableism, and the importance of authentic engagement with self and community.
- Enjoy creative and compassionate metaphors (“Burnout City” and “Monotropic Manor”), plus real talk on what actually helps, what doesn’t, and why quick fixes are rarely the answer for Autistic folks.
If you’re seeking nuanced and affirming guidance on recovering from Autistic burnout or want validation for just how hard it can be, this episode is for you. Get practical insights, a dose of humor, and community with people who truly get it.
Resources
- Neurodivergent Insights Resource on Autistic Burnout: neurodivergentinsights.com/burnout-resources
- The Autistic Burnout Workbook by Dr. Megan Anna Neff: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
- Check out Neurodivergent Insights’ Library of Boundary Scripts (free resource): neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/Boundary-Statements-17da17a4bb8b80c9a45dc8ff9c651725
Divergent Conversations Podcast Episodes:
- Episode 2: Autistic Burnout (divergentpod.com/2)
- Episode 47: Autistic Burnout (Part 2): A Deep Dive Into The Diversity of Burnout (divergentpod.com/47)
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✨ The Autistic Burnout Workbook:
I'm Dr. Megan Anna Neff, owner of Neurodivergent Insights, and I'm excited to announce the release of my book, The Autistic Burnout Workbook. I'm running a special deal for those who support my work. After you order, you will get a coupon code that you can use toward our store for the same amount. For example, the workbook costs $18.99, so after purchase, you'd get a credit of $18.99 to use in our digital shop or in our Etsy shop, which gets you another digital workbook of your choosing for free. This is technically a pre-order promotion that was originally set to end on March 10th, but for listeners of the podcast, I'm going to extend this deal, so if you buy the book in the next month, you can also redeem this special. Thank you for supporting my work. It means so much to me and I hope that you will find this a helpful resource for you as you continue to build a life that is a bit more resilient to autistic burnout.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode two of our Autistic Burnout collection that we are doing. I'm sure we will find a name for it at some point. And today, we are working on burnout recovery plans. And I think last episode, the intro to the series was heavy, as it always is. So, we want to give you some tangible advice.
MEGAN NEFF: Why do people listen to us?
PATRICK CASALE: Because we always go down this rabbit hole. It's like the relatability. The heaviness is the real stuff.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, I think it helps people probably feel less alone in it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, anyway, take us away.
MEGAN NEFF: So, autistic burnout recovery. Yeah, do I just info down? How do we stage this, Patrick?
PATRICK CASALE: So, I know you are working on an autistic burnout, like, course and a series right now for Neurodivergent Insights, and that's kind of what we talked about, prompting us to kind of follow this path. And I think so often, right? People are asking about anything, really, that we talk about, but burnout exclusively. Like, what do I do?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: How do we come out of this?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny because, like, I talk about it all the time, and that's probably one of the biggest questions I get when I'm speaking, and I like, also hate the question, because any answer is going to feel slightly minimizing, because… Yeah, actually, I like starting here.
I like to contextualize the conversation as, ideally, this would be a systems issue in the sense of like, kind of what we tapped into last week around, you don't live in a society that supports humans well. And especially, autistic humans, especially parents. So, ideally, this would be an issue that has some system involvement, but the systems are largely letting us down. So, then the question gets punted to, like, "Well, what can I do?" And how I wish there was, like, a magical three-step curio burnout in five weeks, but that would, you know, make me a scam artist.
So, I do focus on, like, what's within our individual control just because I think we tend to have more agency when that is where we focus, not in a way of dismissing or not naming the systemic pieces that are outside of our control. I think that's really important. But I also think a lot about what cultivates a sense of agency versus helplessness.
So, I think through what is in our control, that we have some agency over. Privilege is also going to influence how much is in our control and what we have influence over. For example, how much demands you can drop. That's very interconnected to privilege. So, I think that's just my huge nuance of saying this conversation deserves more systemic thinking than it often gets and this is our, like, imperfect response to that.
PATRICK CASALE: I like that. That's very well said. Also-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah, go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: I think, in our city, our burnout city, the people who would be like walking up and down the streets would be, like, mainline marketers trying to sell you, like, cure your burnout in five weeks type of thing.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, yes. And it'd be like infomercials, and you'd be trying to decide while you're cognitively fatigued, which one to buy, and they're all talking at you, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, anyway, carry on.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, so when I think about burnout recovery, I kind of think about two different layers or a few different layers, but two that stand out. One is like a very pragmatic layer. And it's around practical supports and strategies that we can implement to support us. So, this would be things like sensory supports that we can implement. Things like sleep support, nervous system supports, energy pacing systems. So, it's like, it's got a more knowledge base. It's more like, what's the tools in your toolkit? Type thing.
Then there's a second layer. And I would say, well, both are important. But the second layer, I think, is really important. And if we're just like, okay, I'm going to implement a pacing system, or I'm going to, you know, get some nervous system supports, that's not going to be enough. The second layer is really where I think a lot of the work is, is psychological work, the depth work, and that is what I call like, knowledge and depth work. So, that's things like addressing grief around our limits, addressing internalized ableism, because until we address our internalized ableism, we're going to keep pushing ourselves to capacity, like you and I were saying last episode of, "I will push until my body tells me I can't." There's a reason that Type A personality connects with chronic fatigue syndrome, it's because we're the personalities that are like, push, push, push until the body collapses.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: It's also a lot of, I guess, like insight or knowledge. So, that would be things like understanding our energy rhythms and then, learning how to work with them. So, understanding, you know, our signals, understanding our sensory profile, understanding our nervous system. So, there's also that layer of coming to know self.
So, when I think about recovery, I think about those two different buckets that we dip into. One's very pragmatic and tools, and the others kind of depth work and self-knowledge.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yep, that makes so much sense to me. So, I know I like taking that really pragmatic approach too and just being able to, like, zoom out a little bit and look at the, like you said, two different buckets, so to speak, because this is such a complex experience that would be so hard to like deep dive every single component right now in that way. So, where do you want to start? Which bucket?
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, we could start with the pragmatic. I think, it might be a more, like, interesting conversation to explore the second bucket, personally, between you and me. That would be, I think, more of our typical style, more of an alive conversation.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: But the pragmatic stuff might be kind of helpful.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. Let's do that first, and then we'll kind of switch gears.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm literally pulling up my workbook to at least anchor, like, what did I say? What were the thing? Okay, so yeah, the pragmatic stuff. And this is a metaphor. So, within the pragmatic stuff, the metaphor I use, metaphor within metaphor. And this is not unique. This is like a common metaphor used in stress, but the idea of a faucet and a bucket.
So, when we have a bucket and the faucets coming on really like, let's say the faucet is coming out really fast. Doesn't really matter how big the bucket is. Like, it's just going to fill up quickly and going to overflow. And if we have a really small bucket, and even if the faucet's just kind of dribbling down, it's going to fill up pretty quickly.
So, there's kind of these two aspects of stress or burnout. There is the faucet, which is the things coming in, the incoming stressors, the incoming demands. And then, there's the bucket, and that's basically, your nervous system or your body's capacity. How much capacity do you have to take in? And we know that burnout, this comes from rainmakers, you know, concept of burnout. It's when life demands exceed our capacity, and our accommodations are part of our capacity, and we're in burnout.
So, I kind of think, and this just helps my brain, because I need to break things down. I think about it as like, what are the things that I can do to reduce the faucet? So, that incoming demands. So, that would be things like intentionally dropping demands, maybe outsourcing things, maybe simplifying our routine, maybe sorting out, like, what are the things that we can release around our expectations of self or family, you know? If we're used to, like, making family dinners, for example, is that something that we can modify during burnout?
Things like practicing good boundaries, is something that would reduce the faucet, and then again, that's going to tie back into depth work, because we often have to work through some people pleasing, which might be rooted in internalized ableism, before we can practice good boundaries. So, there'll be some kind of back and forth between these of like we might have a boundary script, but if it's hard to use it, that would be a signal there's more depth work to do. Things like actually getting formal accommodations and supports, that reduces the faucet, because if we're navigating traditional work systems or school systems, and we're having executive functioning challenges, that's more demands that we have, especially, with those aren't accommodated, things like using sensory supports so that we're taking in less sensory demands in our environment. Using strategic withdrawal, which I appreciated you mentioned that on the last episode, how withdrawal can sometimes be kind of a depressive withdrawal, but sometimes it can be that strategic withdrawal of just like, I just need to withdraw here.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's my go-to most of the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Withdrawal?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Whenever I notice, like, anything I can reduce significantly or if there's something I can incorporate, I'm like, if I just withdraw, I know that some of the domino start to fall a little bit.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, because there's so much that's happening for you and with you, when you withdraw. Like, the social demands are less, which because of how hyper vigilant you are, I imagine your, like, prefrontal cortex gets a break, your rumination gets a break, because of attachment stuff you talked about it in the past. Your sensory system gets a break. Your physical energy gets a break, because I think a lot of times you're like, laying down watching a show, right?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Like, you're restoring on all kind of cylinders when you withdraw, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And I need it to be like, very dark and very cold. Those things have to happen as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, why cold? That's interesting.
PATRICK CASALE: Just because I'm hot all the time. So, like, I would prefer to be cold over hot, and then I'm feeling more comfortable in my body. So, I… Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I'm laughing because… So, we've talked about perhaps doing a writing retreat together this fall and we would hate coexisting. Like, if we did the Airbnb, we'd hate coexisting together, because I always run cold, so I always need heat.
PATRICK CASALE: That's kind of what I was thinking, too, when I mentioned to you I was like, "I'll just find something nearby. Because, like, I need the fan on at all times. If there's an air conditioner, I need the air conditioning on at all times."
Like, it is 70 degrees in our house right now and I'm upstairs, but I can feel that I'm too hot despite having the fan on. So, I really, really would prefer to be like 67-ish at the moment. And that would be really ideal, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm going to like a good 68, 69, 70 would be a little bit too hot for me, too, actually, especially if I'm recording.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I didn't notice it until I, like, went downstairs, got a drink, a snack, came back up, and I was like, "Damn, I'm like, really warm now."
But, yeah, so social withdrawal, for sure, that's one of the things that I feel like I have control over and probably one of my go-to mechanisms. But it's also a good indication, right? Because that's kind of what you're mentioning too, is like the awareness of when we're doing some of these things is important at times too to like, when I start to notice that I'm falling into more of the withdrawal process, I know that I am burnt out.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And that's a great one of those, like, that's a very external thing that you can track. So, even if you're slower to track, like, fatigue or other internal things, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm hitting burnout. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And this is one where I find it's helpful for folks when they can have a few scripts around it, because, especially, if the person is not also depressed, or if the motivation is coming from that strategic withdrawal. It can be common for the people in our lives to worry about us when we withdraw and then that's a demand to, like, reassure people that like, "No, I'm okay."
So, having a script around, like, you know, I'm in a low capacity season, and I'm intentionally withdrawing for a few days to, like, replenish. I'm okay. You don't need to worry about me. Like, having a really simple script so that then we're not managing people's emotions about our withdrawal.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, the guilt or the shame about that, or just the energy that has to go into reassuring some people as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Because yeah, most society sees withdrawal as a bad thing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I'm actually thinking of a friend who keeps DMing me, and they're doing it out of like, best interest, I think, but like, I can't offer much right now in terms of response, and they keep, like, trying to change the approach in how they're asking how I'm doing and I'm just like… but I'm going to go use what you just said as soon as I get out of here and I am going to DM them that.
MEGAN NEFF: And, like, that's a great where, like, you could literally, on your notes app, have like, a few scripts like that, and then it's copy and paste, so you're not even having to, like, reword it every time, yeah. That would be enough for our merch store that doesn't exist. Like, we could have little, like, I don't know, like stickers, like burnout, slogan stickers, or things that communicate like boundaries and strategic withdrawal in there and burnout.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, yep. I'm noticing it more and more, and we were talking about, like, chronic health or chronic pain last episode, I noticed that my throat and my voice starts to get more of that vocal fry/tension as I move more into burnout. And I think there's just seemingly, like, less energy and capacity to regain it. And maybe it's stress-related, intention related too, but it almost feels like everything starts to close up and constrict.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that would make sense. And I know you've done, I think, a little bit of speech therapy since your surgery. Does it take, like, conscious effort and energy? Oh, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Big time, yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:18:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: Just to, like, make your voice, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I can feel it right now, compared to, like, the other episode that we did.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I can hear it, I can hear it, yeah. That would be, like, on top of, like, prefrontal cortex, like masking what words to say, but then, to also be like using some energy to think about how to, like, move your throat when you're talking. Oh, Patrick, no wonder you're depressed all the time.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, true.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm really glad you laughed at that. Like, it popped in my head. I was like, "Do you want to do that?"
PATRICK CASALE: It all adds up. It all adds up. But, yeah, so having those scripts readily available, super important in, like you said, having them in a notes app, having them accessible so that you can just copy and paste, so you don't have to think about what you need to say, or type out to someone, or how to respond to something. You just have your go-to set of responses, and you just allow, you know, yourself to use those and practicing that self-compassion with this stuff too when you are defaulting to, "I need to go more into, you know, communicating this way."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I love a good script, because I am not good in the moment with words, especially, social words, happening right now. And I will often feel like I need to give way more context and over-explain, and then, that's exhausting. So, I love a good boundary script.
And we all link this in the show notes, but in The Nook, we've gathered like, there's a few weeks where I asked people for their favorite boundary statements. And then, one of the things we do is we make databases of some of the resources we have, but then, we make them publicly available. But I'm really bad at, like, letting people know that exists. But we have a boundary, like we have a boundary script database, so I'll link to that in the show notes. And because there's one card, specifically, that's about communicating around low capacity. And I really liked some of the scripts people had around, like, you know, like, you matter to me, but I'm low capacity, or just, I don't have capacity to take that on right now. And so, just even seeing how other people are worrying boundaries, I know that's so massively helpful for my brain.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, me too.
MEGAN NEFF: So, okay, let's start building our wellness city to juxtapose our burnout hell city, or not our wellness, our Burnout Recovery City. So, our Burnout Recovery City, some of the things that would be there, so strategic withdrawal.
So, I imagine like little pods that people can go to that are just like sensory havens. For me, that would be like, having, like, a beanbag chair, or like the moon pod. It would have weighted blankets. It'd be really dark, but there'd be, like, some twinkle lights. Like, there'd be some fun lights in the mix, in this little like isolated, like strategic withdrawal pods, is what they'd be called. And it's totally temperature-regulated. Like you go in and you decide the temperature you want. It's like a little like nest, like you're like in an egg nest. You're like recovery place.
And you get to choose the scent if you want, like nothing, or you can choose a scent, and you like, program it into the wall, and it like comes out. And what else would be in this little nest?
PATRICK CASALE: I would want to have some sort of screen so I can watch my special interest movies or shows on repeat, uninterrupted. I would probably want some animal companions in there. You know, maybe you have a choice of those. I mean, also you could have, like, weighted stuffed animals and things like that as well. But can I just have a bunch of capybaras-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, wait.
PATRICK CASALE: …laying around?
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, what kind of bears?
PATRICK CASALE: Capybaras, those big rats that are super popular now.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh yeah, Patrick has a new special interest. I don't think we've announced this to the world.
PATRICK CASALE: I do.
MEGAN NEFF: This is, like, an exciting thing when a new special interest enters our ecosystem.
PATRICK CASALE: My algorithm is so full of capybaras and like, I mean, there's like a rotation of animals in my algorithm at all times, but capybaras is taking up a lot of space right now. It's their time to shine.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that you have a special interest that's not work-related.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I've been trying to figure out ways to, like, man, can I go volunteer at an animal sanctuary? Or, like, how can I spend more time around nature, and animals in general? Because it truly does bring me a lot of joy. So, definitely trying to figure out how to access more of that.
MEGAN NEFF: I think this is part of the season that I'm like manifesting for you. I don't even really believe in manifesting, but that's, like, going underground season. It has to have, like, sanctuary farms and animals [INDISCERNIBLE 00:23:15].
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, there's a lot of those things in my calendar over the next two months. So, I am very excited about that.
MEGAN NEFF: That's where you should go write this book, is at an animal sanctuary.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I might do that. You know, I talked about going to that farm during COVID with Hazel during the grief episode and how she immediately rolled in animal ship on the first moment we got there. That was not the type of sanctuary or relaxation I need. So, I need the opposite of that. I need like…
MEGAN NEFF: You need that thing you sent me a picture of, is that in Scotland?
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah, those highland cows. Yeah, for sure. Those are also one of my, like, favorite animals. And anytime I get a new, like, favorite animal, I'm like, "Where can I get that tattooed on my body?" So, do not be surprised next time we see each other I have, like, a capybara tattoo. Yeah, it's definitely on my mind.
MEGAN NEFF: Your body's going to run out of space.
PATRICK CASALE: I know, I know, I agree. But until that time, plenty of these opportunities that come up. So, yeah, this would be in our burnout prevention city. Theses pods would be really wonderful.
MEGAN NEFF: Strategic withdrawal pods. And then, I feel like I've mentioned this before, either here or in my community, this idea of, like, if we all had, like, a necklace, or, like, maybe it's built in. This is, like, very futuristic. Maybe it's like, built into our bodies. That sounds creepy, but like, where its' signal showed, like, green light, I'm open to talk. Or like, I want to talk to people. Yellow is like, I'm open for like, a meaningful engagement. And red light is like, don't look at me. Don't talk to me. So, it's like our boundaries are visible to people as we walk around in this city.
PATRICK CASALE: I do like that idea. My friend Xander, who you've met before, is making like specific. One of his special interests right now is making like these, I don't know the word, I don't think it's monogrammed, but designing all these, like, leather, like tags/like name tag type of things for, like, sensory preferences, quiet time needed, no hugs, like, all the things and, yeah, so he's bringing a bunch of those to my Scotland Summit and I'm excited for those.
MEGAN NEFF: Wait. Remember, I sent that, like, wall from the-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you had sent that from the…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and I was like, because he was making really cool tags for, like, luggage. And I was like, "You should do this." Because it was from the, like, a fluffy [CROSSTALK 00:25:57]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I need to send you the picture of all the ones that he has right now. Like-
MEGAN NEFF: I'm so excited that he's making those. That's so cool.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:26:05] the things that he put on there. But, like, a lot of stuff that's sensory related, and some funny stuff too, like, in my opinion, but yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I used that once for… So, we do, like, a weekly conversation prompt in The Nook. And so, I posted that, and I had people say, like, what tags they would make. There were so many funny responses. I loved it. I was like, I would just love to be at a space where people just, yeah, had these tags that were signals of, like, you know? There are some funny ones. I wish I could pull them up, but like, yeah, that just communicate sensory communication needs.
PATRICK CASALE: Maybe, instead of these things being embedded in our bodies, maybe people in this burnout prevention city are just wearing these types of tags and, you know. It…
MEGAN NEFF: And it's like, part of our fashion. And so, it's kind of fun. And it's like, oh, what tags do I want to wear today? And it's like an accessory.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, depending on your mood, depending on your level of burnout. Like, you might switch it up.
MEGAN NEFF: So, you don't want us to combine with the robots yet for our city.
PATRICK CASALE: I feel like we're not far off from that. But, yeah, let's keep that, like, maybe that will happen to most of us in about five years-ish, 10 years.
MEGAN NEFF: So, when I first had that idea, it was before AI was here, and it was a cooler idea, because it was very obviously futuristic, but yeah, now that AI is here, like, that idea just sounds creepy. Yeah.
So, okay, there'd be, like, explicit boundaries where it's just, like, visible on our bodies through décor. We'd have these strategic pods. Oh, accommodations. The accommodation center would be, like, very useful. And it'd be like, what accommodations do you need? And there'd be like the waiting area for the accommodation area would be very sensory friendly, and soft textures. And [CROSSTALK 00:28:09]-
PATRICK CASALE: And then, the communication center just be more like a vending machine, and you just walk up to it and just press the button so you don't actually have to communicate with anyone.
MEGAN NEFF: You're brilliant. That's what it would be.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, or just go in and it's like touch screen, and you just tap on what accommodations you need for the day.
MEGAN NEFF: Or it'd be like Jan from the good place, the robot who like you just say, Jan, is that her name? Janet? You say Janet, and she comes, and then you say what you need, and she gives it to you. So, Janet would be our accommodations.
PATRICK CASALE: I like that.
MEGAN NEFF: Because she can, like, pull anything out of her mouth and it's just, there you go.
PATRICK CASALE: So, yeah, there's-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:28:53] go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't know where I was going.
There's a light in my office right now that is like flashing. There must be like a loose fuse in it, and it looks like the shining or something. Like, the light is just flashing like this and it is really bothering me. But I don't know if, yeah, you can kind of see it.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I can see it. I can see it. Yeah. I mean, we're literally talking about, like, reducing sensory [CROSSTALK 00:30:55]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:30:55] burnout. Is there anything [CROSSTALK 00:30:58]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:38:58] legit look like a horror film, my God. Okay, we're back.
MEGAN NEFF: So, but that's a great example of there was a sensory irritant in your environment. And I imagine it'd be kind of tempting to like, power through. You're like, I'm not going to disrupt the flow of our recording and take care of that need.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yeah. So, I think stuff like that, you know, modeling that on a consistent basis is really useful. And I think that, yeah, in the past, I probably would have just sat there and looked at it on my peripheral like, "What the hell is happening?"
MEGAN NEFF: And that goes back to the depth work then, because its, I know for me, not causing a scene. Like, that has been so ingrained in me, both because of my evangelical upbringing and you just don't cause a scene, and being a girl.
But also, not wanting to stand out, because always being afraid of standing out or misses. And so that goes back to, to be able to do things like reduce sensory irritants. We often have to do that deeper work of what does it mean to stand up and interrupt a workflow of a conversation to take care of my needs and to take my needs seriously.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yeah, absolutely, super important, and it does come with a lot of work, that's for sure. Or through a lot of my own internalized ableism, people pleasing all the things, and just feeling more and more confident that you are allowed to ask for what you need, and, you know, set those boundaries. And yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I just had a thought, as you said that. In this workbook, I wish I would have talked more about attachment, and if I had more space. Because yeah, people pleasing and internalized ableism. But also, I think a lot of us probably have, to varying degrees, some level of attachment trauma, sometimes big T trauma, sometimes small T trauma, where to gain a sense of connection to others, I think, for many of us, we perhaps, you know, de-prioritize our needs, or have a lot of patterns around that. So, I actually think working through our attachment issues is a big piece of recovering from burnout.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, well said.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, those would be some of the like faucet ideas or just like thinking through kind of doing a 360 of where can I reduce demand and sensory irritants and just the things that are required, like, you know, filling me up with stress.
And again, that's where privilege comes in. If some of us can actually do that when you're parenting, that's where it gets really tricky, because a lot of us are parenting autistic children and we're autistic. And it gets it gets a lot trickier now, like, to turn on the faucet, because our faucets are just on all the time.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And then, the flip side would be like, okay, what are the things that is going to, like, increase capacity, to increase durability of the container? So, that's when we start talking about things like nervous system. So, like, are there things we can do that make the nervous system have more capacity? And that could be through learning about the nervous system, through doing some really intentional nervous system practices that help us regulate it. It could be attachment work. I mean, attachment work impacts the nervous system. It can be getting to know our sensory profile, because sensory dysregulation just regulates our nervous system. It can be paying attention to the narratives we hold in our heads, because the narratives we tell ourselves will either activate fight/flight or communicate safety.
So, when we talk about nervous system regulation, like that tree branches into so many things, but that would be a really pragmatic way of thinking through increasing capacity, things like addressing mental health or medical conditions that are in the mix, because obviously, those are going to be things that drain our capacity, setting up energy management systems. So, like pacing systems is something that's talked about a lot, both in the chronic health community, but also in the neurodivergent community. So, that's where we're kind of intentionally tracking how much energy something takes, and then, intentionally, like, creating rest and breaks between, so that we aren't just doing that, like doing our best thing, but we're, like, actually pacing it.
And that can be helpful, again, when we don't have those internal signals, it can be helpful to be intentional around pacing. Things like prioritizing sleep, your favorite thing to talk about.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, lack thereof, for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: But also, like this isn't just about like managing hard stuff. It's also about connecting with autistic community, and autistic joy, and special interests, and leaning into autistic strengths. Those are things that increase our capacity.
So, the flip side of this is also leaning into things that bring us joy, and pleasure, and connection, and community. And yeah, so those are some of the things that I talk about when I think about, like, expanding capacity.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and on the flip side of like, the withdrawal that I was talking about, because I so often do crave connection simultaneously, even while needing withdrawal. That makes me much more intentional about who I am going to spend time with when my energy is really low. And a lot of the time, it's going to be my autistic friend groups for the most part. We already have established like framework, where people know my sensory preferences, and I don't have to over-explain them or ask for those accommodations with a lot of guilt or remorse, and it's also a privileged place to be in a lot of ways, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, because, I mean, masking would be a demand, and so it makes sense that when in burnout, you'd prioritize… Because connections can be energizing if they're the right kind. So, prioritizing the connections in our restorative, not depleting, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, I just had this interesting experience, because I… So, we're setting up a, essentially, like a UK branch of Neurodivergent Insights. And I've got a business partner who's from the UK. And I just got back from that. And we worked together in person quite a bit over the week. And first of all, I've never worked in person since starting Neurodivergent Insights. It's all been virtual.
But I realized it was also the first time, like being in close proximity to an autistic person and like a work environment. Like, there was the retreat, but it was different. Like, we all had our own places. And it was so interesting just to notice, well, first of all, it's just weird to be like, this is the first time I'm like, it's been an extended time with another autistic adult. That was like a weird realization. But then, the ease of which we went in and out of, like, work, or even the way we would eat food, it was just natural for us to eat staring ahead and not at each other. Like, why would you stare at each other while you're eating? That's just weird. And it was so interesting to experience just the ease of like, moving through interactions and work. It was such an interesting experience.
PATRICK CASALE: I love that for you, yeah. I think that's wonderful. And it makes a huge difference. Yeah, eating staring at each other, I'm just thinking about that. Like, what the… What are we doing? Oh, you know, what would be in the city, I just thought about? There would be a hotel called Monotropic Manor, and you would just go there, and you can just go into monotropic focus on whatever you want, and you have, like, little nooks where you just get to sit and do that. And you wouldn't have to talk to anybody whatsoever. You just walk right in and your little nook is already established and created.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, oh my gosh. I love that. I love that. And then, in the other city, it'd be Monotropic Split, it'd be the same building. But it's like, you go in and all of a sudden, you're faced with like 10 tasks you have to do, and they all feel urgent, and they're pulling you [CROSSTALK 00:40:00]-
PATRICK CASALE: Well, I guess I would [CROSSTALK 00:40:00]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:40:01].
PATRICK CASALE: …reaction to that, yeah. And depending on like, where you are at in your burnout recovery journey, like you either walk up the stairs or down the stairs, or you end up upstairs or downstairs, whichever it was, through the elevator. And you would not get to choose. You would just show up to the level you're supposed to be at.
MEGAN NEFF: I don't know. I want to hang out in monotropic manner. So, that is something that when I am in burnout, that is one of the first things I'll do, is I'll prioritize monotropic work-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you've mentioned it before.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I'll just, like, give it to myself, and I'm just not going to look at inbox or notifications. And that's so important.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, circling back to us, like talking about writing these books and potentially, doing some writing together somewhere. And you were like, "I can do this for 14 hours a day." And I was like, I mean, good for you. And I think I can make it to like, three, and I'll be like, "I got to go do something."
MEGAN NEFF: And like, I'll be curious if I actually can do that for a whole month. So, when I went to California to write the first half of the burnout workbook I do think I was doing 14-hour days, but it's only a week.
I think part of it for me, also being a parent, is if I'm going to leave my kids it's like, there's so much. And especially, because then I'm asking Luke to take on extra labor, it's like I've… So, it's a combination of, like, I've got to pack a lot into these few days to just try being away from my kids. But then, also, I really can go into the writing vortex and time just stops for me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's amazing.
MEGAN NEFF: So, do you get the vortex at all when you write?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, when I first wrote this, like, really rough draft manuscript, so to speak, back in August, I mean, I did that all in like seven hours. I wrote 60,000 words in seven hours.
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, what?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean-
MEGAN NEFF: I can't do that. I can't do that. That's why-
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I hope to never do that again. Like, that was insane.
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, 60,000 words in seven hours.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, [CROSSTALK 00:42:26].
MEGAN NEFF: I can't. Like, I'm trying to do the math on that. That does not seem right.
PATRICK CASALE: It was nine hours. Nine hours because I watched all three Lord of the Rings movies on repeat. So, I was just like, Lord of the Rings was on in the background. I was just like, typing furiously. Then it would end. And I'd look up and then start the new one, start back. And then, at the end, I was like, I can't feel my arms anymore. Like, they were in so much pain.
MEGAN NEFF: Would that be like 6000 words an hour?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I wrote the whole first draft in that night. And I've never experienced that before in my life, like so I hope that it never comes over me again in a situation where I am actively like putting my body and my brain through that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that doesn't sound pleasant. My vortex is much more pleasant than your vortex.
PATRICK CASALE: It was pleasant at first, but then, like, I did completely lose track of like, everything around me, and I don't even remember like looking up at all. So, I'm not doing that again.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, I was writing a book, and this was before I was in the neurodivergent space, it's an academic book, but I was writing a book when my kids were younger. And I'd wake up at four, and I loved it. I'd turn on the fire. We had like a fluffy rug, and I'd sit on the floor, and I'd write. And I would do a lot of vortexing. And this is before we knew about autism.
And the kids would be like, asking for something and I just would not hear it. And Luke would get kind of frustrated because he'd be like, "Oh my gosh, kids are asking for things. She's just ignoring them." But is the thing about the vortex is the world… Have I shared this on the podcast before? My puppy peed on me and I didn't notice.
PATRICK CASALE: No.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, there was a blanket. So, I was in the vortex I was writing, and I get up, and there's like a puddle of pee on the blanket. And I realized that Shadow has peed on the blanket at some point during me vortexing. I don't remember it or was not aware of the fact and my pants were a little damp.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, I mean, so yeah, this vortex would be a part of this recovery city. And sometimes I think it would be when you were in the throes of burnout, and sometimes it would be when you were coming out of it. And sometimes versions of that your dog would pee on you.
MEGAN NEFF: Maybe that's the tagline of monotropic, what's it called? Monotropic hotel?
PATRICK CASALE: Manor.
MEGAN NEFF: Manor, Monotropic Manor: Where Dogs Pee on You if You Don't Notice.
PATRICK CASALE: Where Dogs Pee on You and You Don't Mind.
MEGAN NEFF: I like how you're sticking with the alliteration. Yes.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, so we have diverged per usual. I know we have like, a little bit more we want to cover in this, I think, and I have like, another 10-ish minutes that I can go. So, what else do we have?
MEGAN NEFF: I guess, like, other things would be, so as much as it is about like managing your energy, it's also about like finding the things that give you energy. And I feel like we're already talking about that, so things like monotropic focus, or, like you talked about animals or the right kinds of social connection. And then, that can get back to insight work of we might not actually know what gives us energy. Again, if we've de-prioritized our needs and prioritized the needs of those around us, then that might actually take some experimentation to sort out, like, what feels good, what's pleasurable, what does feel replenishing to me.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah, and I think that can be a big struggle when we're talking about, like, sense of self, right? And the acknowledgement of self. And especially, if you've been masking for the majority of your life, and all of a sudden, you're asked these questions, like, what are the things that light you up or give you energy? And you're like, I have no idea. Because I've said that many times. Like, I couldn't tell you. And that can be a big mental hurdle to unpack all of that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, if you were to just ask me that point blank, I'd be like, "I don't know, that feels so vague." My brain does this where it like anchors on an idea based on another idea. And I don't actually have to share the idea comes from, but my brain just needs to share it all. This is the context thing.
There's this thing that comes from, like, child parenting psychology, which I can't remember who says this, but it's like, catch your child doing good, because a lot of parents will default to correcting children. And so, to catch your child doing good and to name it is like a standard parenting practice.
So, I went to like, catch your body doing good. Or like, catch the energy when it's there. And like, I kind of list these are the things that give me energy, but I can catch it. So, actually, I think I want to practice that. I mean, I do have a sense, because I have caught some of those, but I want to practice that as we're recording this. Like, catching the things that support my energy. Like, I know for me going out and sitting in the sun is one. I know when we're recording, I often feel more energy, and I think it's because we're often deeply connected. When I'm in my community, there's often some friction to, like, log in because it's notifications, but then when I'm in it, I often feel energy. But yeah, it's almost like I have to catch it, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to list it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, asked point blank, and I'm like, "I have no idea." My default response would be, like, "Nothing gives me energy." Which would be untrue, but like that is definitely what my brain would immediately default to, and that would be like, I would just have a very hard time naming that, but I do think a lot of the stuff that we talked about on the wellness series, you know, are things that give me energy in a lot of ways, like traveling experiences, connection, and community. Like, a lot of the things that we talked about are definitely the things that I try to tap into when I can.
And I've also, like, acknowledged that that will not always be there. Like, that's not accessible to me at all times. And I think that's what used to frustrate me pre-discovery, was like, where is this going? Like, why do I not have access to it? Why can't I find the joy or the energy from any of the things that I typically enjoy or spend time doing? And it was before I had the understanding of any of the stuff that we're talking about right now, but it would be deeply frustrating to me. Like, how come I can't find it? And then, I would just label myself as, like, deeply, darkly depressed all the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, when you say, why can't I find it? Like, why can't I find like, that spark, that joy?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I just assume I was just in major depression, like, you know, almost all of the time, and had no concept of autistic burnout or autism in general.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, I really relate to that, both from a burnout, but also, like for me, the sensory stuff is just so huge. For for me, it was often, because I didn't know it was sensory shut down. So, I'd often be like, "Why can't I enjoy my life?" And it would be because, literally, like, my nervous system was in shut down. That is such a, like, mind, like it's just a clusterfuck when it's like I am not enjoying my life, but on paper, I should be able to. And so, whether it's because I can't find that spark that gives me life, or meaning, or purpose, or energy, or presence. Like, it's the being able to be authentically engaged piece. And if we are burned out, or if we're sensory overloaded, we can't be authentically engaged with our lives. And then, like, if we can't be authentically engaged in our lives, that's not going to be feel very meaningful, or joyful, or any good.
PATRICK CASALE: No. And everybody around you, right? For the most part, friends, family, partners, potential therapists, they're like, "Just reframe, just do this, just do this. Like, look at how good this is, positive psychology A, B, C, CBT, reframe this." And like, I think that, for me, those were, like, some of the most irritatingly frustrating experiences I had was just, not only everyone else's lack of understanding, but my own lack of understanding, and just kind of getting caught in that all the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, because, yeah, then it's like, well, what's wrong with me? People are saying I should be able to reframe out of this and I can't. So, just it reinforces the shame and the isolation, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And you can't reframe your nervous system, is the thing. And I'm thinking back to this was in Belize, like, there was a workshop on nervous system stuff and, like, polyvagal theory. And someone brought up, so one of the limits of polyvagal theory is they often talk about like, kind of, what other theories would call the, like, window of tolerance as social and someone asked a really good question, which was like, you know, isn't that kind of biased or neurotypical people?
And Yunetta, we keep referencing Yunetta on this podcast. What she said is, like, maybe that-
PATRICK CASALE: As we should.
MEGAN NEFF: What did you say?
PATRICK CASALE: I said, as we should.
MEGAN NEFF: As we as we should. She said maybe that, like, when we're in that optimal kind of window of tolerance, maybe that's authentic engagement. And I loved that phrase so much that for us to be in our nervous system, in a place that feels good, right? Not freeze, not fight/flight, is for us to be authentically engaged. And that could be with a creative project. It could be with ourselves. It could be with others.
And I think what you're describing, I think what I'm describing is like when we're not in that authentic engagement window of our nervous system, like, we're not going to be happy, we're going to be stressed, we're going to be discontent, we're going to be restless. But we often don't have language for that, and you can't reframe your nervous system in that sense of like, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, great.
MEGAN NEFF: So, authentic engagement, I would put that as part of like, If I was making a new list of burnout recovery, finding ways to be authentically engaged with yourself, with the world around you, with others, and that's going to look different for everyone. It could be monotropic focus on a special interest. It could be being in nature. Could be being with animals. Could be eating with other autistic people, eating, looking straight ahead, not at each other.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, all of those things. And I think that will change too, right? Like, what you need in those moments might change because you might go to access something that used to work for you, and maybe that feels out of reach at the moment, but in reality, like there's all of these other options too that sometimes I don't think about in terms of, like, okay, how can I be authentically engaged with myself? Yeah, I really like that. Thanks, Yunetta.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, especially, because I think so many of us are prone to dissociated burnout of like, I'm going to withdraw, I'm going to, like, numb out, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:54:47]. And we need some of that. But then, I think we also need authentic engagement.
PATRICK CASALE: Without a doubt, 100%.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, you're getting wiggly, which means, I think it's close to your stop time.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, we're over it, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, okay. Well, why don't you do the social ligament thing and close us out.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, okay.
MEGAN NEFF: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:55:12].
PATRICK CASALE: So, anyway, if you like us and you want to find more of us, no.
MEGAN NEFF: If you want to authentically engage with us [CROSSTALK 00:55:25]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:55:25] authentically engage with us, go like, download, subscribe, and share on Fridays. But yeah, episode two of whatever we're going to call this series, which I'm sure we'll figure out at some point in time.
MEGAN NEFF: I think it should be like Burnout City.
PATRICK CASALE: I do too. I actually thought episode one should be like Burnout City, # or… whatever that tagline was about sensory hell. And I don't remember what it was, but we will figure it out.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: But yes, Burnout City. And then, what are we calling the other city? That's Burnout Recovery City?
MEGAN NEFF: Burnout Recovery City. But I liked Monotropic…
PATRICK CASALE: Monotropic Manor.
MEGAN NEFF: Monotropic Manor.
PATRICK CASALE: If Your Dogs Pee on You and You Don't Mind.
MEGAN NEFF: But you don't notice. Oh, yeah, you don't mind, yeah. We're getting more playful with our podcast, which I'm enjoying.
PATRICK CASALE: I think we've kind of rediscovered what works for us, you know, and we've kind of stated like the batching is working better for us and less interviews also, because of just the toll that takes energetically. I think it works really good.
I mean, you mentioned last episode, like, "I don't remember the last time I've seen your face." And I was like, "I think it was like six weeks ago." And maybe it was even more than that, because we recorded eight episodes, so maybe. But anyway, yeah, it's working good. So, I'm feeling…
MEGAN NEFF: It's because of authentic engagement, like the batching, plus the not doing interviews. I think I feel more authentically engaged with myself and with you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, agreed 100%. I don't remember what I was saying, and it doesn't matter [CROSSTALK 00:57:17]-
MEGAN NEFF: You were saying if folks were authentically engaged and wanted to like [CROSSTALK 00:57:23]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:57:23]. Yeah, do all of those things and we'll see you next week.
