Episode 112 (Season 2): Rethinking Higher Education for Neurodivergent Learners [featuring Adam Lalor]

Show Notes

Navigating higher education as a neurodivergent student can often feel isolating and overwhelming in a system not designed for neurodivergent minds. For many, finding an affirming academic environment that truly recognizes and supports neurodivergent strengths, and not just challenges, can be life-changing.

In this episode, Patrick Casale, an AuDHD mental health professional, sits down with Dr. Adam Lalor, educational psychologist and Vice President for Neurodiversity Research and Innovation at Landmark College — the first college in the world designed solely for students with learning disabilities, ADHD, autism, and executive function challenges. They explore what makes Landmark’s approach to neurodiversity-affirming education unique, discuss the limitations of traditional post-secondary institutions, and share tangible insights about fostering inclusive, supportive environments that honor neurodivergent culture and identity.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Gain a firsthand look inside Landmark College, a groundbreaking institution built for neurodivergent students, and learn practical ways higher education can shift toward inclusivity, including sensory accommodations and universal design.
2. Hear vulnerable, relatable stories from Patrick and Adam about the often-traumatic realities of navigating college as a neurodivergent person and how trauma-informed, affirming spaces can help restore the joy of learning.
3. Discover actionable advice for families, educators, and neurodivergent students on self-advocacy, accessing accommodations, and nurturing strengths—not just remediating deficits—in academic and personal growth.

If you or a loved one has struggled to fit into traditional education or wondered what truly affirming, neurodivergent-centered learning can look like, this episode will inspire and empower you to seek out or create spaces where neurodiverse minds can thrive. Gain insight, validation, and hope for a more inclusive academic future.

About Adam Lalor:

Adam R. Lalor, Ph.D. is an educational psychologist and Vice President for Neurodiversity Research and Innovation at Landmark College. His research focuses on the college success and transition of neurodivergent and disabled college students. Dr. Lalor is co-author of the book From Disability to Diversity: College Success for Students with Learning Disabilities, ADHD, and Autism Spectrum Disorder and co-editor of the forthcoming book The New Accessibility in Higher Education: Disrupting the System for an Inclusive Future, scheduled to be released this summer by Oxford University Press. He serves in leadership capacities within the Association on Higher Education and Disability, College Autism Network, Learning Disabilities Association of America, and National Center for Learning Disabilities.

LC Online’s Learning Differences and Neurodiversity (LDN) certificate is an online, postbaccalaureate professional development program for educators and professionals who work with students with ADHD, autism, learning disabilities such as dyslexia, or executive function challenges.

The program uniquely integrates current research findings with evidence-based practices, classroom strategies, and technologies. Courses offer graduate credit and the convenience of online learning, as well as the opportunity to interact with an engaged cohort through video conferences and discussions. Learn more here: landmark.edu/certificate

Learn more about Landmark College here: landmark.edu

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today is going to be an interesting episode, because I'm doing it solo, without Megan Anna, just for time zone purposes. And I have Adam Lalor. Did I say that right? 

ADAM LALOR: You did the best. 

PATRICK CASALE: Okay. PhD, is an educational psychologist and the Vice President for Neurodiversity Research and Innovation at Landmark College, who was one of our sponsors on Divergent Conversations recently for about 12 episodes. His research focuses on the college succession, transition of neurodivergent and disabled college students. 

Dr. Lalor is a co-author of the book From Disability to Diversity: College Success for Students with Learning Disabilities, ADHD, and Autism. And the co-editor of the forthcoming book, The New Accessibility in Higher Education: Disrupting the System For an Inclusive Future, scheduled to be released this summer by Oxford University Press. 

He serves in leadership capacities within the Association on Higher Education and Disability, College Autism Network, Learning Disabilities Association of America, and the National Center for Learning Disabilities. So, welcome to the show. That was a mouthful.

ADAM LALOR: Indeed, it was, Patrick. Thank you so much for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, man, of course. So, tell me a little bit, you know, for the audience's sake, like, who you are and what you're doing? Because it sounds like you're very involved in the higher education system and really advocating for neurodiversity affirming education and support. And I know as an autistic ADHDer, like, going through college was pretty hellacious for me and for a lot of people listening. So, can you talk a little bit about, you know, where this passion comes from? Maybe the why behind all of the things I just listed?

ADAM LALOR: Absolutely. So, I mean, man, honestly, I am neurodivergent and that person disabled by society, as are my children, my spouse, my sister, grandfather. So, it's something that certainly runs in my family. And it's something that runs in many families. I mean, it's not surprising in some ways that I gravitated toward a field that really relates to me and the people I love. 

That said, my father was a special educator for his entire career, 40-plus years. And I grew up in those environments too, working as a peer mentor for students with disabilities, and it's something that I absolutely loved. 

I did my undergraduate work in psychology. And then, did my masters in higher education administration. And then, rounded it out at the only program in the country that has a doctoral focus on higher education and disability, and that's the University of Connecticut. So, in this tenure I've been here for just about eight years, but I had a prior tenure at the college a couple of decades back for about three years and knew this is the place that I wanted to be.

So, I mean, for folks that aren't familiar with Landmark College, we're the first college in the world solely for students with learning disabilities, ADHD, autism, and executive functioning challenges. So, I mean, we're a somewhat unique institution. I like to say to folks that we are to neurodivergent students what HBCUs, historically, black colleges and universities are to Black and African American students, what women's colleges are to students who identify as women. So, I mean, we're a cultural community in addition to being a post-secondary institution of education.

PATRICK CASALE: So unique. So, to give some context for the listeners, you know, we have someone who works on our behalf, Megan Anna and I, who helps us secure sponsorships for the podcast so we can keep doing the podcast for listeners. And he was like, “Hey, Landmark College wants to sponsor some episodes.” And I was like, “What the hell is that?” 

And so, you know, Megan Anna does a lot more research than I do. I'm always just like, “I don't know, does it sound okay?” And she's like, “Yeah, I think it sounds good. And you know, it's a college, specifically, for neurodivergent learners and disabled students.” And I said, “Wow, that sounds really unique.” You guys are in, is it Vermont? Is that correct?

ADAM LALOR: Yep, we're at a small town called Putney, Vermont, which is, to give folks a visual on a map, we're right where New Hampshire, Vermont, and Massachusetts meet. So, right in that little section there.

PATRICK CASALE: It's a very Vermont thing when I think about, like, oh, if there was going to be a college in the United States that really supported neurodivergent students, I would think of like a couple of locations, but Vermont would definitely be on my mind. I went to college in upstate New York near Burlington, and spent a lot of time in Vermont. It's one of my favorite states. And just the progressive nature, and the more, like, left-leaning thought process probably supports this quite a bit. 

So, tell me about, like, okay, for our listeners that are all predominantly neurodivergent, or certainly have loved ones or friends who are neurodivergent, tell us about this college. Like, the experience here? Because, like, for me, SUNY Plattsburgh definitely didn't do it right?

ADAM LALOR: You know, I mean, a lot of colleges are really learning in this area. And many of them have come a long way in a very short time, but there's still a long way for them to go, right? 

Landmark is a little bit different in that we, I mean, have been doing this work for 40 years now. We're in our 40th year. And I mean, this has been our population since day one. So, if you think back in time to 1985, I mean, that's pre the Americans with Disabilities Act, that's pre, I mean, at least in terms of name, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. Those are still five years away. So, I mean, with that, I mean, yeah, you found that, man, so many students weren't being served by higher education effectively because of their neurodivergence. I mean, that time we didn't even use the term neurodivergent, but essentially, the profiles that would be part of that.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Hell, I wasn't even born yet. So, yeah, you’ve been doing it for a while.

ADAM LALOR: I was a little guy. I mean, we were founded by some of the real or an earliest disability rights activists. Many of them had done work in other areas, I mean, related to race and gender. But I mean, they were really the ones who said, you know, this is wrong, that so many capable, intelligent students are not moving on to higher education when they can offer so much if provided additional education.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and, you know, it's about, like, how do we build in accommodations, and knowledge, and understanding, and support, right? Because if we look at education through the traditional model and trajectory, it's like it's kind of a one-size-fits-all approach. And we don't have a lot of wiggle room for people who don't, maybe, like, learn in certain ways, or have different processing styles, or need different support structures in place to be successful. And that's a shame, because that's an enormous gap where people fall through those cracks, and they just get completely overlooked, dismissed, or missed.

ADAM LALOR: Absolutely. I mean, and when we think about how education is delivered within the post-secondary context, most of our faculty are not taught to teach, let alone teach for diverse individuals who have different learning needs, and need to be assessed in different types of ways. They're content experts. I mean, they might be wonderful biologists, and they can tell you everything about biology, but we have to remember when they were in school, the biology was their area. That's what they were passionate about. They understood everything that was explained to them in that course, and as a result, teach like they were taught. 

So, it's one of those things where, at Landmark, our faculty and staff really are certainly disciplined experts, but are really primarily teachers and educators. They have developed the skills to be able to work with incredibly diverse populations, and not just one at a time, but in groups, which, I mean, frankly, blows a lot of minds of my colleagues at other institutions who struggle simply to provide accommodations to one or two students.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure, yeah, that makes an enormous difference, right? When you're thinking about a potential safe, affirming landing space. Can you go into that a little bit? Like, when you talk about the instructors and the teachers, and just how curriculum is laid out, and what this process looks like? Because I think a lot of people listening may hear like, yeah, okay, this college says it's like neurodiversity affirming. What does that actually mean to Landmark? Like, what does that look like on a day-to-day basis, in terms of, like, the student experience?

ADAM LALOR: Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. So, I mean in terms of being, I mean, neurodiversity affirming, really, we first start by looking at the group as a cultural group. I mean, we try to, I mean, celebrate who our students are. We talk about their history because, well, many of them have never heard about the history in our people. That stuff gets ignored in the history books. I mean, you might learn a little bit about disability in the form of the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Capitol Crawl. But very infrequently do you learn about neurodivergence.

PATRICK CASALE: No, I mean, in my master's program for clinical mental health counseling, I said this before, like, I think the only time we talked about autism or ADHD was in a child development course for, like, maybe two hours. We talked about potential, like, disabling conditions, and never even named it as neurodivergence. It was definitely not framed in a neurodiversion or neurodiversity affirming way or lens. And it was almost looked at from like a deficit model of like, “These kids are really going to struggle.” But we never even talked about the fact that these kids turn into adults like, and what it's like to support autistic or ADHD adults. It was wild to me. It blows my mind.

ADAM LALOR: Absolutely. I mean, a lot of what is done in education is focusing on deficits, focusing on “fixing and remediating” issues.

Now I have to say that I'm not against remediation. I mean, I think remediation, when we think about it just being improvement in areas that we struggle in, I think, is a great thing. I think everyone should be doing that. 

PATRICK CASALE: Sure. 

ADAM LALOR: I stink at math. It has nothing, I mean, to do with my neurodivergence, but certainly I can get better. And we all can. But to do that, I mean, in the face of not exploring, recognizing, and growing strength, really, I mean, harms students, whether they're K-12, higher education. And if we just drill and kill on vocabulary and spelling, never talking with the student about all the things they do well. And I mean, if they're an artist, helping them develop as artists or mathematicians, if they love math, we don't do that. I mean, often what we're doing is we're harming self-esteem, self-concept, and unfortunately, and a lot of students who are neurodivergent go to college with some degree of trauma.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure, absolutely.

ADAM LALOR: Yeah. I mean, whether it's, I mean, something that is clinical in nature, like post-traumatic stress, or just what I call little T trauma that I mean, you've been, I mean, impacted by discrimination and bullying, all of those things. I mean, it can be defeating and can lead you down a lane that is not productive for you and certainly not productive for folks around you in society. 

So, part of what we do, oftentimes, here at Landmark is to, at its core, help students regain a love of learning that maybe they lost over time because they have been told about the things they can't do. 

One of the first things that we do when a student get here is we have a course called Perspectives in Learning. And we will look at documentation. But we look at it and we'll discuss areas of challenge, but we'll also show students that same documentation shows so many of their strengths, all the things that they can harness in their lives and put towards the main use. We talk about the laws that protect our rights, our civil rights. We talk about things like identity. I mean, we're trying to teach students that despite what their prior education may have said, despite what some of society says, they're not broke. They're whole people. That they have hopes, dreams, abilities, skills, creativity, just like any other individual in our world. 

And then, we provide opportunities for them to pursue those interests and dreams in an empathetic environment that, I mean, is going to support them through various services and supports, while also letting them know that we believe in you. I mean, you can do it.

I mean, that sounds super simple, and to some extent, I don't know why that doesn't happen in other places, but it oftentimes doesn't. So, I mean, as a result, we will use methods to teach our students that really are more inclusive. Well, a lot of educators who will say, “Okay, I have a class of 20, so I'll focus on teaching to the average student in the class.” And by doing so, you miss everyone that's not the average. But if you start using things like universal design that you're focusing on the margins, who are the strongest students, who are the students who are struggling the most, and you teach towards them, they'll get the range of learners.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. Sounds like, you know, an inclusive, intentional space and thought process. So, I have a couple of thoughts and questions that have come up. Like, what does it look to be like sensory-friendly and accommodating in a college setting? And what is it like when you have people with different, like, sensory processing, or, sorry, different processing styles of information as well? So, what's that look like in terms of a collegiate, like, post-secondary education setting?

ADAM LALOR: Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you what it looks like in most settings is not what it looks like here. 

PATRICK CASALE: Sure.

ADAM LALOR: I mean, a traditional campus, I mean, there's very little that's typically done. There might be things like sensory spaces on campus, low sensory rooms, quiet rooms, which, don't get me wrong, are excellent. I mean, that is for many institutions that is a big change, and I mean, a great start. 

PATRICK CASALE: Right. [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:20] better than nothing.

ADAM LALOR: Indeed. So, I mean, any movement towards access is good movement. That said. I mean, there have been other issues that sometimes go unconsidered. I mean, for example, one that more institutions are becoming aware of is just the lighting. Lighting in certain spaces that can be sensory overload for some students, and using those fluorescent lights that we all complain about. It is something that can be changed, I mean, at institutions, whether through filters or changing the actual type of bulb. I mean, moving to LEDs, I mean, is one way. Is it going to be perfect for everyone? No, but is it going to meet the needs of a greater number of students? Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

ADAM LALOR: Likewise, I mean, there are oftentimes accommodations that are used by students or provided that will allow them to individually adjust sensory environment. For example, wearing headphones in a class, or having access to, I mean, different fidgets, I mean, during an exam, where everything has to be away, you got it?

Here at Landmark, I mean, a lot of that is just baked into what we do. And I don't like that term baked in, but sort of the most clear term our students just get to do it. They [CROSSTALK 00:23:10]-

PATRICK CASALE: Sure, [CROSSTALK 00:23:10] useful.

ADAM LALOR: Yeah, I mean, they don’t need to request an accommodation to have, I mean, things, I mean, sensory fidgets or to wear noise-dampening headphones or I mean, things of that nature. Certainly, I mean, there are challenges in certain environments. For example, one being a weight room, given the nature of the environment, it can be difficult. So, we'll talk with students about that. I mean, if that's something that is disruptive to you and painful, well, I mean, what may be a way to reduce that? Well, go at times, potentially, that are less crowded, right? I mean, if one of the activities that you really wanted to do is dumbbell curls, well, I mean, you might want to consider having a dumbbell in your room so you can control it. Others are far more difficult. I mean, I would say, like, smells in a dining hall. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, totally.

ADAM LALOR:  Yeah. I mean, those are very difficult to control.

PATRICK CASALE: Totally. 

ADAM LALOR: So, sometimes there might be options to be in smaller areas within a dining hall. We have different types of spaces that will allow students to identify one that may meet their needs a little bit better. We have a quiet room within our dining hall so that folks can, if they need less noise, they can go in there. So, I mean, a variety of different things. And it’s very common here to see students walking around with headphones.

PATRICK CASALE: Totally, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it's just like you said, like, kind of foundational. And then you don't even have to think about it as terms of, like, can I do this or not? Is there going to be a reaction? Am I going to get in trouble? 

I remember, you know, and I'm curious about this. But like, what about movement in spaces? Like, for me, it's hard to sit still. And I was very disruptive in class. Like, that was always the thing in my report card, straight A's, but disruptive to all the students. And it was just like, I can't sit still. I need to be pacing. I need to be moving. So, that was always a challenge. And then, classroom sizes too. You know, I remember in college being in lecture halls of 500 people, and just like, it was very challenging to be in those spaces.

ADAM LALOR: Absolutely. You know, and I'm going to use the example that you gave, needing to move around. That's one that happens all the time. I mean, it's actually a focus of some research that our students did, I mean, here on campus, about, okay, some students need to move around, and then other students get really distracted about it. So, how do you balance that? 

And, I mean, oftentimes that gets looked in in a binary way. Oh, well, you either have to sit down or you can't be here because you're disruptive. And folks tend to not look at, I mean, well, what are the solutions that exist in between? 

So, I mean, one of the things that will happen if a student needs to get up and move around, that's common. If they need to fidget and bounce up and down in their chair, that's okay. I am a prolific foot wiggler. So, I'm business up top and then, like, I look like a jazz dancer, a tap dancer below. 

PATRICK CASALE: I can relate, yeah.

ADAM LALOR: So, I mean, what are the options that I have? I mean, I could stay in that seat, or, you know what? I could put a table clock over the desk, and no one sees what's going on underneath, so I don't distract anyone. Or if you have a student who needs to walk around, yeah, that can be really disruptive for a lot of students. I think about a student with ADHD who needs to move and a student who gets distracted by folks moving. So, I mean, the option is, well, move, just move towards the back of the room, yeah. And you're not in someone's line of vision, you're not going to be distracting them. So, I mean, there are solutions, but we as educators sometimes are not willing… I mean, educators are very creative.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I like that perspective of saying like we understand that there are going to be challenges here, but how do we figure out a way where this isn't black and white?

ADAM LALOR: Absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's unbelievably important. So, I like to hear that quite a bit, and I'm sure that people listening are, you know, excited to hear that too. That's a bummer for me, because, again, like, I think so many people have had these post-secondary collegiate experiences where it's like, I think a lot of people who are undiagnosed, especially, have such a hard time in these environments of figuring out, like, how to make this work, right? Like, without understanding what accommodations do I even need in order to be successful? 

And I think it's hard for those who do know early on in their lives that they're autistic, ADHD, you know? That they have some sort of disability or disabling condition. It's hard for them to go into these environments thinking, like, “All of my life I've had to do X, Y, and Z, and now I'm in this new environment, and am I going to be supported? Am I going to be accommodated? Like, are people going to, you know, look at me differently.”

And I think it's important, like, to go straight into an environment where it's like, this is the expectation, this is the culture that's created, and it allows for there to be a lot less shame and stigma, I think.

ADAM LALOR: Absolutely. And, I mean we have a unique population where I recognize that, but there are elements of this that can certainly transfer to any institution. I mean, one of the things that you're talking about is that transition, and certainly it becomes a challenge at some institutions in part because of the legal changes with students who are covered under IDEA, and ADA, at the main K-12, and then really ADA and 504, in higher education. We don't have the expectation or the mandate by law that K-12 does under IDEA that, I mean, really is in search of success. 

Here in higher education, I mean, the focus is on access, ensuring that… And while some institutions will go beyond access like Landmark and as well as some traditional institution, there are a lot that are really just looking to meet, frankly, the minimal compliance required by law and and even to go further, i think there, I mean, higher education as a whole is still clawing and scratching to hit that minimal compliance over [CROSSTALK 00:30:51].

PATRICK CASALE: Sure, 100%. And we know that there are massive, sweeping changes coming from this current administration in terms of disability rights, and education rights, and everything else. So, it's going to be an interesting development, and how colleges and higher education respond as well.

ADAM LALOR:  Absolutely, I mean, a lot of questions still have to be answered. What's going to happen with the Office of Civil Rights? How is that going to impact compliance related to access? And we don't know yet. And I'm not at a point where I'm ready to make assumptions about what's happening. But I mean, I think it's fair for us all to be concerned about changes, because we know that's going to happen, and what the implications might be for our students. 

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. A couple more questions that I have that I think listeners will want to hear. So, class sizes, what does that look like? Like, do we have neurodivergent teachers and professors on staff? And what is, like, training like to make sure that it's accessible and affirming? Because there's a lot of places that are like, “I just want to check the box.” I want to say the statement, right? I own a group therapy practice. It's very easy to say like, “We're anti-racist, neurodivergent, celebratory, LGBTQ affirming.” But if we don't do the work, and we don't do the training, it's just a performative statement, right? So, can you speak to any of that stuff?

ADAM LALOR: Yeah, I mean, in terms of, I mean, walking the walk?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

ADAM LALOR: I mean, if anyone came to us and said that they do it perfectly, I'd immediately call them liars. 

PATRICK CASALE: For sure. 

ADAM LALOR: I mean, being perfect in terms of access, and equity, and inclusion, I mean, is not a reality, because it keeps changing. So, institutions have to be mindful and continually looking to improve. 

So, we have a lot of opportunities to learn as members of this community, but we also do a lot related to going outside of our community to other colleges and universities, secondary school, corporate entities. I spent a lot of time over the years with the federal government. I mean, really trying to support greater awareness and competency in terms of neuro-inclusivity. 

So, here we have trainings. I mean, we have an annual summer institute for educators, where our faculty, and staff, and folks from around the world will come to our campus for three days of learning. But I was just getting some numbers earlier today from my Certificate Program Coordinator, Carol Beninati, who oversees our online certificate program and learning differences in neurodiversity. And she was telling us that, I mean, our faculty over the last few years have taken more than 88 different classes with us just to continue their learning. They're optional. 

We do reviews of research as a community. I mean, we evaluate different strategies that are going on within the classroom and outside of the classroom to share ideas. I mean, it's important to know that the literature, the research on this population within higher education is thin. You said before., I mean, so much focus is on K-12 and you're right.

PATRICK CASALE: And [CROSSTALK 00:35:07].

ADAM LALOR: Yeah, I mean, those early years. And you look at adulthood in higher education, it's very thin. It's increasing, so very thin. So, you have to do a little bit of both. You have to look at the research, but you also have to, I mean, observe and see what seems to be working and what doesn't seem to be working, and hear and listen to the students, what's working for you and what's not. And then, be willing to adapt what you do. I mean, frankly, I think one of the biggest skills, in addition to empathy, that our faculty have, is their ability to be flexible and pivot based on the needs of the students, not just across the year, but in the moment. But I can't remember what the third one was. 

PATRICK CASALE: I was just asking about classroom sizes, but you answered the questions very well, so I appreciate that response.

ADAM LALOR: Yeah. I mean, classroom sizes, I can tell you are, I mean, we have a max classroom size of 16, but that's very rare that we get up to 16. It's [CROSSTALK 00:36:23]-

PATRICK CASALE: Can I tell you how horrific it is to sit in a lecture hall of 500 to 1000 people with fluorescent lighting? 

ADAM LALOR: Yep.

PATRICK CASALE: Expected to just sit there for three hours. 

ADAM LALOR: Yep. 

PATRICK CASALE: And I remember one of those classes because I was in upstate New York, was called Intro to Canada, and it was the most boring, no offense to any Canadian listeners, fucking class I've ever been in in my life, and the ability to sit there for three hours with 500 people in fluorescent lighting, unable to move, felt like torture.

ADAM LALOR: And I'll tell you, they're nearly impossible for the instructor as well. 

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, sure.

ADAM LALOR: And the sad part is, when you're teaching those, you know that you're not reaching everyone, and you feel awful in that respect.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%.

ADAM LALOR: Here, I mean, I would say most of our classes are about seven or eight, but we have classes that might have only two. So, I mean, they will fluctuate in that group. Obviously, like most institutions, your introductory classes tend to be a little bit bigger, but certainly, I mean, very popular one is Intro to Psychology. Yeah, every institution. So, that one may get up to 14, well, something in that area. But beyond that it can be pretty rare.

PATRICK CASALE:  Wow, that sounds incredible. If I ever need to go back for another education or a degree, maybe that's the answer. So, really cool, man. Like, very, very unique, very fascinating to me. I imagine for a lot of our listeners also thinking the same thing. I'm assuming, for anyone listening, if you're like, “Oh, wow, I think this is for me.” One question that will come up is probably the tuition piece. So, is there financial aid opportunities, scholarship opportunities? What does that look like?

ADAM LALOR: Boatloads of financial aid and scholarships. And all our students will have something. Our admissions and financial aid office work very hard with our students to ensure that they have options and they have access to different types of funding. Our admission process and our financial process is a lot more, having worked in admission, it's, I mean, very different. 

We are a smaller institution, so we are really getting to have much more individualized relationships with students, and can talk with their families, because oftentimes, also, their families that are taking out loans and things like that. We can help them access things that may not be available at other institutions. For example, being that we are an institution that solely serves individuals that may qualify as being disabled through vocational rehabilitation, there are funds that can be accessed not by all students across the world, but by Landmark students to support their education. So, that's stuff that generally doesn't get talked about by college counselors and all that, but we can help them understand the nuances and guide them through things like that.

PATRICK CASALE: Amazing. Yeah, that sounds like a very individualized approach as well. So, really, really cool. You guys are doing some great work. And you know, I know Megan Anna would like to also probably extend a thank you to you guys, because you did sponsor like 12 of our episodes over the last couple of months. So, appreciate that. Always appreciate the support, and you guys are doing something that's so unique and so valuable. 

And again, having, you know, this fear that probably comes with the transition from secondary to post-secondary for so many of us, of the unknown and the uncertainty, to have a landing spot that feels affirming and supportive sounds really wonderful. So, well done on that.

ADAM LALOR: Thank you, man. What I say though to folks is, I mean, if anyone's ever in the area, and they want to stop, and visit, and just feel accepted for who they are, and I mean, what their brain does, stop by Landmark College. We'd love to have you here and show you around.

PATRICK CASALE: Sounds fantastic. Thank you so much, Adam, for coming on and making the time. For those who are listening, where can they find Landmark College? And we'll add this in the show notes too, so everyone has access to all the information.

ADAM LALOR:  Yeah, you can certainly come check out our website. It's landmark.edu. There you can find information about admissions that are dual… I mean, are high school dual enrollment level and associates, baccalaureate, post-baccalaureate levels, as well as other resources that might be helpful for families as they navigate the experience of having children, young adults, who are neurodivergent.

PATRICK CASALE: Very, very cool. We'll have that in the show notes so everyone has easy access to that. Adam, thank you so much for coming on and making the time today.

ADAM LALOR: Thank you, Patrick. I mean, it's been wonderful being able to sponsor the show. And we definitely look forward to working with you going forward.

PATRICK CASALE: Perfect so much. So, anyone listening to Divergent Conversations, episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. We'll see you next week.