Episode 111 (Season 2): Not Your Neurotypical Wellness: Adaptations and Reflections
Jun 19, 2025
Show Notes
Navigating wellness advice as a neurodivergent person can often feel invalidating, overwhelming, or just plain inaccessible. So much of what’s recommended—from meal prep to journaling—assumes executive function, sensory profiles, or social fluency that simply aren’t universal. However, the right adaptations not only make wellness more achievable but also help us honor our genuine needs instead of internalizing shame or “shoulds.”
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, ask their audience and discuss the kinds of health and wellness advice that often fall flat for neurodivergent people, then share creative, compassionate alternatives that are more likely to work. Drawing on their clinical expertise and lived experience, they discuss executive functioning challenges, accessible food routines, setting up effective self-care practices, and the emotional impact of receiving (often unsolicited) advice. This collection-finale episode of the worn-down and worthy #NotYourNeurotypicalWellness series is a candid, practical, and validating deep dive into taking care of ourselves in ways that feel right, not just prescribed.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Learn specific, neurodivergent-friendly adaptations for wellness routines—like low-executive-function food prep, sensory-aware shopping tips, and realistic self-care strategies—that move far beyond generic advice.
- Get honest insights as Patrick and Megan Anna explore the emotional realities of shame, independence, attachment, and accepting help, with stories that will feel familiar and validating to many listeners.
- Discover actionable ways to create routines, boundaries, and community resources that fit your actual life, whether you’re navigating burnout, chronic illness, or just tired of toxic “positivity” culture.
If traditional wellness tips have ever left you feeling worn out or unseen, this episode is a resource for finding new ways to advocate for yourself, honor your needs, and reimagine what well-being looks like on your terms. Listen now for practical adaptations and heartening perspectives tailored for the neurodivergent community.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today is the finale of our series on Worn Down and Worthy, #NotYourTypicalWellness. And I have remembered the tagline now because I am no longer in super major ER depressed mode from last week when we were recording episodes one, two, three, and four.
So, if you listened to us, last week, we went through some wellness tips that are often given to us that don't necessarily work, and then some adaptations on how to make them a bit more useful. And today, we're going to continue that conversation. And then, we are going to wrap up the series. So, glad to be back on here.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, likewise.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, okay.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, let's go.
PATRICK CASALE: Last week we ended with sensory and the next thing on our list is health advice that requires too much executive functioning. Ooh, this is a big one. And this one is one that I really relate to, because immediately upon looking at some of the things y'all have submitted, like, I immediately see meal prep for a healthier diet, too much planning and task switching involved.
I'm just going to say this like y'all, I cannot tell you how often I order delivery. And it is so helpful for me as an accommodation to not have to task switch, to not have to think about it, to ensure that I'm getting some nutrients in my body every day, like without having to always leave the house. It's just so helpful for me.
And I have felt a lot of guilt around that at times. And in reality, like I am so internally grateful for it. And I even think during Hurricane Helene, when it wasn't an option, it was really, really hard, because it threw off all of my routines.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you sharing that one, well, because we bump into our privilege there. Like, you're in a position where you're able to do that. And then, we can feel guilt around like, "Oh my goodness, I'm so privileged that I can do this." Or maybe the shoulds of it like, "I should be able to batch cook." Or…
Yeah, food. I mean, food's a huge one to accommodate around. And this is an example, I saw a reel recently about how, like, why it's so expensive raising neurodivergent kids, because they were reflecting on, like, where's all the money going? And they were listing all the things. And I actually felt emotional watching it, because there's times where I'm like, "Why is our budget what it is? It feels like we're not being responsible."
And then I'm like, "Oh, right." Like, we've got our food going on. Like, we've got so many things and food is a huge one. Food is expensive for everyone right now. But then, when you're also trying to build in accommodations around food that is massively expensive and can bring on a lot of shame of like, "I'm spending this much money on food." Or anger, of like, "Why am I in a position where I'm needing to spend this much money on food?"
PATRICK CASALE: Yep.
MEGAN NEFF: Egg prices, they were supposed to go down, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: I haven't checked, because eggs really gross me out. But if I had to guesstimate what they were in western North Carolina right now, I'd probably get maybe seven to $8 a dozen would be my conservative guess. It could be [CROSSTALK 00:06:33].
MEGAN NEFF: Wow, yeah, we don't buy eggs, so I have no idea either, but that's wild.
PATRICK CASALE: It is wild.
MEGAN NEFF: It's wild, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, going down y'all. Coming soon to a store near you. Yeah, I mean, I think meal prep is hard. And one thing I've learned too with the throat issues that I've had and then, like, the throat surgeries, is how important smoothies have been for me too, because I don't always feel like chewing or want to be chewing. Sometimes I'm really grossed out by eating, in general. And smoothies have definitely been a lifesaver in a lot of ways, to just allow me to get nutrients and calories and not have to go through the steps of meal prepping as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Same for me, and especially, when I get into the habit of actually making them, it's a great way. So, I think a lot about like, nutritional density. How do I get some nutritional density into my diet? Because left to my own devices, it's like frozen bean burritos three times a day. And so, doing a green smoothie, and I've played around with it a lot to get the texture the way I like it and to make it work for me. But that is the way I get some of that nutritional density when I can get myself, it's the blender. The blender is so loud. That's the thing that…
PATRICK CASALE: It really is. One thing we started doing at times, because we used to try to meal prep a bunch of smoothies, right? Like, put them in, like, the ninja bullet things, and freezer, and then all you have to do is pop one out and blend it. But then even that was becoming, like, unbelievably cumbersome, and I just couldn't do it.
And just buying, like, the bigger sized version of, I can't remember the brand name, but it's like [CROSSTALK 00:08:22]-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Like, the green smoothie brands, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I've done that at times.
PATRICK CASALE: Like the two gallons of those or whatever, and drinking those every day. And even that super helpful for me, and it eliminated all the steps of… And the shame that comes with the steps. That's always what it is for me. It's like, my mind goes into, "How could you not just put a couple of things in a blender and blend it?" And in reality, it's just, you know, it's not always possible for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, same, same. So, I know a smoothie is good for me, but like, I'm not motivated by it by taste. So, it's like, this is a good thing to do. And then, you have to clean the blender, and then you have, like-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:09:07].
MEGAN NEFF: And this is where I'm very privileged in the sense that I'm married to someone who's mostly neurotypical. I feel like I shouldn't say mostly neurotypical. I mean, I feel like neurotypical matches. Technically, he's gifted, but I feel like the idea of identifying as neurodivergent doesn't click for him. And he's got amazing executive functioning. And he actually enjoys cooking.
And he'll joke of like it spends out like hours to keep this family fed. And so, that is a huge… Like, I literally do not cook unless I'm cooking a frozen burrito. And then, when he goes out of town we'll joke like, "When dinner's on mom it's DoorDash because…" So, that's my version of cooking is like DoorDash.
PATRICK CASALE: It's still getting the needs met, you know? And yeah, Arielle will joke with me if I do try to cook, because I actually am a good cook. Like, I make food that tastes good. It's just the fact that sequential steps in order and like, tracking all of the things that need to be happening at the same time. And then, she'll come home and it'll be like, 20 pots and pans in the sink. She's like, "How are you not cleaning this as you go?" And I'm like, "That's not a thing I could do."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, cooking is so… And for a long time, like I was a stay-at-home mom when my kids were young. And I think Luke would be confused, because he'd come home from work. And partly I had, like, young kids also, and I was like, following a recipe is so hard for me. So, the kitchen would be a mess, and then there'd be a pretty crappy, like, kind of dinner on the table. But then, it took me, like, an hour. And it was just, yeah, yeah.
And especially, as a woman, I had a lot of shame around I was a stay-at-home mom and I can't, like, do the domestic tasks that a good mom or a good like, I don't like the term wife. I can't connect to that. But, like "a good wife" is supposed to deliver.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, there's a lot of shamefulness in all of this. And like in your executive functioning struggle, like it's hard, it's really hard. So, that's one piece of health advice that requires too much executive functioning. The next one, oh, go ahead, sorry.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, no, I was going to jump to adaptations or should we add up them as we go?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, let's add let's adapt them as we go. Yeah, let's adapt them as we go.
MEGAN NEFF: So, meal services. I've experimented with a lot. So, like, there's Green Chef, where it'll come like, pre-cut, I think. The one I've had the most success with, but then is Hungryroot, where it's similar. If you have ARFID in the family, it's helpful, because there's more selection. And you can search by, like, I have five to 15 minutes.
And then, with that, like, the price, I mean, it's hard to say, but I don't know that the price is that different than, like, grocery shopping. So, there's different meal services.
I've experimented with [PH 00:12:30] Factor Five before, where I think it's Factor Five, Factor, where you literally, like, put it in the oven or put it in the microwave and it's a meal. And that's worked well for me.
So, there's also, in addition to Luke likes to say as like, "Getting a private taxi for your burrito." I think someone on social media said that instead of, like, always getting a private taxi for like our donuts or our food, there's also, like, meal service options that can… It's kind of an in between option of can ease the burden a little bit.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. And another adaptation can be, well, for me, and this would probably go back more towards the sensory/executive functioning too, but mostly sensory from last week is like, I hate stepping foot in the grocery store, as so many of us do, and having your groceries delivered, you know, like [CROSSTALK 00:13:19]-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Or even we have supermarkets here where you can order it and just like, go drive up and pick it up, and they'll put it in your car. And like that stuff for me is life-saving. And it saves me an enormous amount of stress.
MEGAN NEFF: I've also seen, like, some cool neurodiverse community. Like, this is where neurodiverse community can do cool things. Like, I know someone who, like, she's really good at work, and so she's good at, like, essentially making money, but has a family member who is really good at cooking, and, like, hires that family member to come for her. And like, it's kind of a beautiful example of, well, if that thing's easy for you and this thing's easy for me, is there a way like we can both get our needs met right here?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's a really nice symbiotic relationship when you can incorporate that into your lifestyle.
One thing we wrote was drinking lots of water not effective for someone with a chronic illness and that electrolytes are better.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I saw this comment on Substack and I was really glad. I was like, "Oh, I'm glad someone's mentioning that." Because that is a common like wellness, like, "Make sure you drink enough water." But yeah, if you've got POTS, or if water drinking is hard for sensory reasons, or you just forget, like, yeah, electrolyte pills, I use those regularly, as do my kids, and that's been huge. Do you use electrolytes?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I have those, like, liquid IV pouches, and those are really helpful. And then, have electrolyte, like, salt stick, tabs that I have used since my soccer playing days that have always been really useful too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, that's like a great example of that's an easy adaptation for water drinking.
PATRICK CASALE: What else is on here?
MEGAN NEFF: Someone mentioned green smoothies not working well. Yeah, I mean, I know we talked about smoothies working for us, but I think smoothies can definitely be hit or like, touch and go for autistic people, especially, and need to be like, tweaked a lot if they're going to work at all. And then, for some people, they will never work because of the texture.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, one adaptation that you wrote down was choose warm, blended, or cooked foods if all greens feel harsh, that soothing foods count too. And I think that's important to remember, that soothing foods absolutely count. And, you know, trying to take away some of the pressure of what people tell us we should be doing for our bodies.
MEGAN NEFF: Actually, this reminds me, Patrick, I kind of want to do a whole collection on neurodivergence and food. Like, it's about food, but there's so much this taps into around shame, and disordered eating, and body dysmorphia, and body shame. And so, there's just so much when we start talking. And so, many of the health tips are often food-based, and there's just so much complexity around this topic for so many of us.
PATRICK CASALE: There really is, yeah, absolutely. And I think that would be a great idea. Okay, next.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, sorry. I just thought of another adaptation. Again, this is from Claire in my community, who is a functional medicine provider. Claire in The Nook, I don't like say in my community, that's weird. Claire from The Nook. And deconstructed meals. So, it's kind of like, think about like a snack tray you'd make for a toddler, but like, much more sophisticated, but the idea of deconstructed meals. So, maybe you've got, like, the carrots, and the veggies, and that can be a way that many of us get our nutrients and our food. And I like that. And I like calling it that versus a snack tray, it's a deconstructed meal.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Okay, next up, routines that collapse under ADHD autistic brains. You want to share more about that?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I mean, I think anything that we're like, "Oh, I need to do this every day." Or where there's an expectation of consistency is going to be hard for us. So, some of the things people mentioned were things like morning pages, or gratitude journaling again, or just any strict wellness routine. And that makes sense to me. I can't follow anything consistently. So, I think part of it goes back to that mindset of like, this is going to ebb and flow, and I'm going to try not to have shame around that.
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. And I like that gratitude journals made another appearance. Clearly a winner for people in terms of feedback that you've received. Okay, so replacing rigid schedules with if-then schedules. So, for example, if I make tea, I'll take my meds.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And Jesse from ADHD Focus just made a post about this recently, this idea of the if-then like, so you start, and I talk about this a little bit when I talk about habits, like pairing things. So, instead of thinking about like, I'm going to do this, this, and this, it's like, okay, so yeah, I know I'm going to do my coffee every day. That's an anchoring habit I have. So, if there's something I'm wanting to do, how do I pair it on that? Because I'm pairing it onto something I'm already doing. So, maybe it's, I'm going to get my coffee and maybe I'm going to say an intention for the day. And then, after I've done that enough, over time, those pairings might start becoming a little bit easier, because it'll maybe be not an automatic process, but just like, "Oh yeah, I get my coffee and I think on an intention for the day."
So, if then or habit stacking is what that's called, when you stack a habit you want to have with a habit you already do. So, you're not trying to change your life. You're using the architecture that's already there and kind of adding something to it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that a lot. Using visual anchors instead of planners. Definitely for me, like sticky notes, object cues, things like that. I even do, like, visual reminders in my phone to pop up instead of, like, having to have everything in a calendar and having those reminders, like… And because I have a Google device, I'll just say, like, "Hey, Google, can you add reminder about A, B, and C into my phone for tomorrow at what time?" And then, I forget that I've set that, and then it pops up in my calendar, and I'm like, "Oh, great, yeah, there's my reminder."
MEGAN NEFF: So, there's also, like, automation in that, which is really helpful. Yeah, so visual cues and automation, for sure.
PATRICK CASALE: Allowing for micro-practices, one-minute reflections, three deep breaths, one word of gratitude.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, just basically simplifying it quite a bit.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, instead of-
MEGAN NEFF: And that's helpful because of… Yeah, because of our all-or-nothing. It can be like, well, I'm going to do this amazing wellness routine. Well, it's like, can you have one minute of being with yourself softly?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it seems so much more accessible if we're going to break it down into smaller chunks like that instead of saying, like, "I'm going to do 15 minutes of intention setting tomorrow." It's like, "Well, we'll just set one intention for 60 seconds." Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Anything else on that or we move on?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I feel like that's good. And then, just so much just about having the attitude of, like, compassion for ourselves when consistency is hard, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, that's a big one for me. Okay, ask for help without the tools to do so.
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, some of the Substack comments were things like, "Call me if you need anything. Just say yes when help is offered. Say no if you don't have enough spoons." So, kind of, like, I'm guessing from this, like, either vague offers of help or vague offers of like, "Just say no. Like, just have boundaries."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and what you wrote down was, or maybe this was within their comment under this. So, when you don't have spoons, these assume social fluency, self-awareness, and clear boundaries, all of which require skills that many of us are just starting to learn.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I really appreciate this comment of like, something as simple as just say no, if you don't have spoons, that is not simple. Yeah, you need to have self-awareness of, like, what? Like am I in burnout? Like what's happening inside this body of mine? You need to have, like, the verbal and social fluency to be able to communicate what you need. Like, this is a complex ask.
PATRICK CASALE: It is very complex ask, for sure. Help-seeking that assumes too much. So, instead of just ask for help try, "Can you check in on me on Wednesday?" Or, "Here's what would help most right now." I love the, like, "can you check in on me in a couple of day" comment. I think that's so helpful for me, because a lot of the times, yeah, I don't know what I need in the moment. And if it feels like a demand to me, then it feels like even more pressure to come up with an answer. So, I would much rather say, like, circle back with me, like, in a week, or in like five days, and maybe I'll have an answer then. Or, you know, just having that check-in, in general.
MEGAN NEFF: And that also gives you time to process, like, not in the moment, yeah, yeah, yeah. Having help scripts is another one. I like scripts for a range of things, whether it's parenting scripts or self-advocacy scripts, because it's hard for me to come up with words in the moment. So, especially, you know, for various reasons, there's times in our lives where we will get offered help. So, like grief, during times of grief, or during times of medical stuff. And so, knowing that people might be offering open blanket, kind of, "If I can support you, let me know." So, kind of, batching some scripts ahead of time can be helpful.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. Because oftentimes, in those moments [CROSSTALK 00:23:34] it's really hard to know what you need in those moments. Like, it's hard for me to even think straight, let alone, like, help you navigate how to help me. I think that's really a challenging component, for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: I remember that when you had that terrible flight situation going to Ireland and your friends were like, "We are just booking you a hotel." And like, how kind that was, because you couldn't think straight.
PATRICK CASALE: No.
MEGAN NEFF: And they just booked you a hotel using their, like, travel points, and were like, "Patrick, go."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that was unbelievably helpful, because by the time I got done with all of that, so frazzled, so frustrated, so exhausted, and just not able to really put two and two together to make sense of any plan that I could make at that point in time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And then, I think related to help scripts is the idea of kind of maybe coming up with some sort of, like, support menu ahead of time, of knowing, like, okay, this is what would be helpful. And again, that can be complex for us, because we need to know what we need. But I think it's probably easier when we're doing that on our own, versus when someone's asking of like, okay, these are the tangible things that would be helpful and I can create a support menu.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I like that idea a lot. Anything else in that regard before we move into something that is probably a lot-
MEGAN NEFF: Probably your favorite, we'll end with your favorite. Just say, like, I think, receiving help is hard for a lot of us.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And so, there's also kind of an emotional regulation piece and maybe shame piece around, what does it mean to not be hyper-independent? What does it mean to be seen in our vulnerability? To depend on others? To need others? Like, I think, for me, it's almost a reverse demand avoidance too, of well, if you help me, then maybe someday you're going to come back and need a demand from me.
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: So, the autonomy piece can run really deep for many of us.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I think the attachment piece too. Like, there could always be this mistrust of like, is there an ulterior motive here? Is there ever going to have to be like, you're going to come back and hang or hold this over my head, or something like that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, it feels safer for you never to help me, and I don't owe you anything.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Or maybe [CROSSTALK 00:25:55]-
MEGAN NEFF: That's why I avoided attachment right there.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, yeah, same boat, same boat, working on that as well, of receiving. And I think some of it is sometimes like our own, like, internalized ableism too. Of like, I'm going to prove that I can do this on my own no matter the cost. And that can really, obviously, spiral out of control as well.
MEGAN NEFF: I just had an insight and we can cut this if this feels uncomfortable. But I just listened to episode one, and we're now at the end of the season where we talk about our rupture. And one of the things in that exchange that happened, I'm just now realizing this, you reflected that you are under the perception that you had financially contributed more to the podcast than me, which was not my perception. And it had always been really, really important to me, of like, "Patrick, send me the invoice." Like, the first one I paid beyond 50, because you had been covering it. And I was like, "I need to show him…" I'm like, "You've been going beyond." So, it's always been so important to me that it's equal.
I'm just now realizing that was my attachment system that got activated. Because if you're telling me you've contributed more, I don't feel safe now, because for me, safety is in me not owing you anything.
So, I'm just now realizing that was my attachment trigger that got activated when I heard that of like, first of all, I don't think that's true, and that can't be true. And if it is true, tell me how much I owe you, because this doesn't feel safe to me.
PATRICK CASALE: What a full-circle moment we just had.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, here we are eight episodes later, and rupture repaired.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, here's probably my least favorite, affirmations and positivity culture. So, some of the comments that y'all gave us were, "Just think positively." Traditional affirmations, which can feel fake or invalidating. Neutral affirmations like, "I have a body." Instead of [CROSSTALK 00:28:06]-
MEGAN NEFF: Sorry, this would actually be an adaptation.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, sorry.
PATRICK CASALE: Someone in the comments commented, I appreciate their comment. Their comment was, "People will often say positive affirmations don't work for them. What they're not realizing is, you have to believe the affirmation." And it's true, because if you try to tell yourself something you don't believe, it's actually going to create more shame. So, yeah, this was a comment from someone on the Substack. But what they were saying, they were giving an example of how you can do affirmations.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:28:37] that way, okay.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, neutral affirmations. Example, I have a body instead of I love my body often land better yes, without, yep, that so true, right? Just naming the thing that I can really get behind opposed to affirmations that really just feel disingenuous, or can really bypass the hard stuff, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, I actually do talk about self-compassion and affirmations a bit, but every time I talk about it, I'm like, huge footnote, because even that word self-compassion, I mean, we've talked about that before, like that word I don't even like. But when I've seen it modeled really well, I'm like, "Oh, okay, that I can access." So, if I think of self-compassion as like, "this is a hard moment" that I can access. And I think that that is self-compassion.
But when we're telling ourselves stuff that we don't believe, yeah, then we get defensive, and then, like, voice number two pops in and is like, "Well, this is actually why you're shit and so you shouldn't be saying these nice things about yourself." And then, we feel worse.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's so true, and that's kind of what you have here under affirmations and positivity culture of shift from like, I love myself to I'm learning to be kind to myself. And I think that would land so much better for me in moments, you know, when I'm really struggling in a much more accessible way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like naming the thing that we're working toward, or again, naming the thing that feels honest, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: What else?
MEGAN NEFF: I really like emotional naming or effect labeling. I talk about this one a lot instead of reframing. And there's actually this really interesting tarantula study that I love citing, where they had four different groups of people that had, like, spider phobias. I feel like I've mentioned this study before, but the task was to walk up to a tarantula and to see how close you could get.
And they put all kinds of like biofeedback or bio stuff on it. So, they were measuring like things like sweat and heart rate. So, they were measuring physiological markers of anxiety, and also how close they could get to the tarantula.
And there were four groups. You know, one was a control. One, I believe, they were doing distraction. One was positive reframing like, "This spider can't hurt me." And then, one was simply just naming the experience like, "I'm scared or I'm anxious." And then, they had them come back after a period of time and do it again, the group that had the most, I guess, progress in the sense of lower physiological markers of anxiety, and it could get closer to the tarantula, was the group that was, all they were doing was naming their emotion. They were just saying, "I'm anxious." Not the people who were saying, "This spider can't hurt me."
I love that study because it goes back to how simply validating our experience and attuning to our experience can sometimes be the most powerful intervention. And I think, especially, for autistic people, we have a lot of feelings around CBT often and that attempt to reframe our thoughts. So, I think that can be an affirmation of just naming like this is a hard moment, or I'm scared, or I'm anxious. This is harder, if we have alexithymia, obviously. So, then maybe it's, I feel bad. Maybe that's all we can access, but you can still label it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's great, because that makes a lot of sense. And just saying, "Yeah, this is scary." Or the example you have here is there's some shame here and that's okay. And I like that, just to name it, just to normalize that it's okay to have these emotions.
And then, you say, using contextual affirmations. For example, it makes sense that I feel this way after what I've experienced. I think those are-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …validating.
MEGAN NEFF: I think this, again, is really huge for neurodivergent people. Like, if a rude teen gets disrupted, we might have a really big, like, emotional response to that, like, irrationality that we feel a lot of guilt over. So, that is a form of affirmation to say, like, it actually makes sense that you're feeling irritable that your friend brought another friend to the event and didn't ask you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Totally relate to that too.
MEGAN NEFF: So, and I think that we've made it to the end of that, to our list.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. So, wow, those are good because I, again, like, you know, could easily have gone into this last two episodes just picking that apart, right? And just being like, here's why this stuff doesn't work. And that doesn't feel good for anybody at the end of the day, like, without having some adaptation or takeaway and things that you could potentially try to use at home, which is all Megan Anna's perspective and my perspective would have been like, let's tear all of it.
MEGAN NEFF: Let's tear it apart and make fun of it. I know, I know. I can see my influence-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:33:57] useful, honestly. Like, it's much more useful. And I think it's good to acknowledge both ands in these situations of like, yeah, these can be really frustrating, especially, if not used or said to you without nuance or understanding of neurodivergence in general. It can be really frustrating.
And there are adaptations, though, that can be implemented and incorporated. And you can try things out when certain suggestions come up that work for you, you know yourself better than anybody, for the most part. Like, you're going to have significantly more insight into what works for you and what doesn't.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. That's really well said. And I like that you say the both and. And this is why we're a good pairing, right? Is you probably more comfortably can dip into the like, the rage deconstruction. Like, which can be validating, right? Validating of like, yeah, it is really shitty when someone tells you just go do this thing.
PATRICK CASALE: But it could also be really short-sighted. You know, it can be much more focused on the moment, but that doesn't lead to, like, a reason for hopefulness or optimism the next time something happens, because you're already in that mindset of, "See, nothing works anyway."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, holding the both and of like, we do experience a lot of like, annoying, frustrating, and validating advice, and even from like, mental health and medical providers. And when we can find our people. And, again, this goes back to community, which is the through line of this season, when we find our people it is so powerful.
So, about a year ago, we started running courses in The Nook. And my favorite part, so I take some of the workbooks and, like, turn them into courses. My favorite part, we'd meet weekly, and it was those weekly live conversations with other neurodivergent minds, like we did this sleep one. And I want to now go back and redo my workbook, because it was those conversations that were amazing, where it's like, "Well, this is what I do for my sleep. Oh, and this is what I do." And it's having conversations about these topics, these kind of health topics and wellness topics in neurodivergent community where it's like, "Oh, well, I adapted it this way, or I did it that way." That's where so much beautiful, beautiful learning, I think, is happening where it validates why these things are hard for us, and then moves us into a place of agency, and action, and empowerment.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And it's also a good, like, reminder for so many of these things that it's really not a one size fits all approach, right? Like, things that work for you may not work for me and vice versa. But it's important if we can openly discuss those things as well, because you may have suggestions where I'm like, "Oh, I've never tried that before." Or, with this adaptation, maybe I could try it a different way, and it just gives more of a reason to have a little bit more hope and optimism around things that are really hard.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and it opens up creativity. Like, what you're saying of my adaptation, the way I adapt something might not work for you, Patrick, but you hearing how I adapt something might for you be like, "Oh, I could adapt it in this way." Because it just sparks creativity.
But yeah, because we do all have such different needs and sensory profiles. Like, there's not going to be like, one adaptation that works for all of us.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, as we wrap this up, what has your experience been about doing a collection in this way?
MEGAN NEFF: I've really liked it. Like, I like the themes we're exploring. And I like that we took this topic of wellness and then I just love the themes that have merged around collective care, community, creativity, around like how to hold on to our humanity. I was really struggling with how to record in this new political climate we're in, and this just felt like the right way to re-enter the conversation.
I have loved the batching. I feel like because we're recording more than one episode in a day, I feel like we get into a flow and can go deeper. I love that we can close the loop, and it'll be like, "We'll reopen this loop in two months, when I see you again, and we'll be exploring another theme." I have liked that it's just you and me. Yeah, I loved it. What about for you?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, me too. I think that, you know, the break was necessary for both of us for similar reasons and for different reasons. Like, different things happening in both of our lives and things that we're struggling with as well. And it's allowed for us to be more intentional and strategic. And that's something we've wanted out of this podcast for a while. We've joked that, like, we've felt like we've been winging it and flying by the seat of our pants so often, to be able to just do it with more intentionality, and to go deeper, and to connect more like this.
And I think, also, yeah, I have really enjoyed just doing this, the two of us, because although we've loved all of our guests who have come on, and if you're listening, we've appreciated you coming on here. It's hard for us too. It's hard for us to drop into conversation and have it feel really like a natural progression and to have that connection. So, I think this has been really nice.
And there's a lot going on within not only the world, in the country, but in the autistic community at large. And you know, some of it is really painful to witness, and some of it is painful to experience, and some of it is really beautiful. And I think that we use the word duality, or at least I use the word duality a lot in the last two weeks, and that's what it feels like, right? Is like the both and, and like the duality of life. And I think that it's been really enjoyable to just have this space, like, in this structure, in this container.
And it's been cool to just talk through some of our struggles too, like personally as friends and people who care about each other, and how much intention we both had, even though that situation happened like three months ago, and we're talking about it, you know, from a perspective of three months ago. It's nice to-
MEGAN NEFF: It wasn't that long ago? Was it?
PATRICK CASALE: Before I went to Ireland in March. So, maybe two months ago, two months ago.
MEGAN NEFF: And it's May 1st today.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, yeah, so two months ago, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Because there was actually a TED talk, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: So, it's nice to just kind of like, acknowledge and talk about stuff publicly like this, because you know, we know that this could also have had a very different impact too and…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and that, that would have impacted people if… You know, I am glad we chose to talk about that publicly, because I don't think it's possible to, like, run a business adventure with a close friend and not bump into things. And this feels weird to say, but like, I'm proud of us. I'm proud of how we moved through it. And I'm proud that like, we can share that as a model of like, you are going to bump into stuff, and it can be okay, and it can even deepen stuff if it's if it's done with care. So, yeah, I remember, like, kind of when it happened, or after, like, wondering, like, would we ever feel comfortable talking about that on air or not?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Well, here we are.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I had a thought last night I shared with Luke, when we were out on our walk. And I'm curious if you feel this. I said to Luke, I was like, "I feel like I'm all in on the podcast for the first time." And partly because I didn't know how to like, and it's like the autistic reciprocal thing, you know? So, like, group projects can be hard for autistic people, or, like, when you're joining worlds with someone else, that can be hard. And I think, especially, because your team did take so much of the like organization of it, and then the design was so different than my design that I was like, "I feel like I've got, like, a foot in this world, but it's not mine, but it's mine."
And then, it sounds so simple, but when you were like, "Yeah, take over the design, redesign it, have it match." And I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, and then when I started, because I took lead on the Substack, it's like, I feel like I have more ownership of it, and so, then I know how to show up to it, whereas before it was like I'm trying to do the reciprocal thing that's really hard for me, of collaborating on a project, but it's not mine, but it's kind of mine. And so, now my head, I feel like I'm all in on it for the first time.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm happy to hear that.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean [CROSSTALK 00:43:08]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:43:08].
PATRICK CASALE: I think because we've joked off air about this, and I was like, "You could have just asked me about the design two years ago and my response would have been the same response that it was now."
And it's just fascinating how relationships work, you know, because it's taken a lot of work for both of us to get to a place where we feel very comfortable with one another, and like naming stuff that makes us uncomfortable. So, I mean, it's just fascinating to, like, watch if we use like a timeline again, right? Like, from episode one till now, and our friendship, and our relationship. And it feels really wonderful. So, I am grateful to be in the space with you. And…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, likewise. I really appreciate you as a friendship, as a friendship.
PATRICK CASALE: As a friendship. You can tell both of our brains are fried too. We just [CROSSTALK 00:44:01]-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, yeah, we've been recording like two hours now. I really appreciate you as a friend. And then, this project is so deeply meaningful. And I think me getting connected to more people through the Divergent Conversations underground is making me realize the impact of this podcast, which is also, like, fueling my all in-ness, of like, because of the digital walls I created, I dissociated from the fact people actually listen to this.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Everyone's in like different modes of self-preservation right now, you know? And that totally makes sense to me. God, I was feeling it during this last episode where I was like, "Oh, my God, my brain is not working anymore." And it's not, but that's okay, because we are wrapping up, and I'm happy that we did it this way.
I hope you all enjoy it. And I hope it's meaningful right now. As we are talking, you know, it's kind of a meta experience, right? Like, we're talking about stuff that's happening in day-to-day life, and that has happened, and this won't come out for two months, and who the hell knows what we'll be talking about in two months, because so much is going to happen. So, even if you all listen to one of these episodes, and you take away one thing, and it just helps make your day 1% easier, I think that is really the goal here with what we're trying to create.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. And we will be back with another collection. So, yeah, collections, maybe not seasons. And we will do that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so we will do that. And we don't know what it's going to be on yet, but the beauty of this is always been like, let's just see where it goes. And we really had a loose framework for this collection, and we had like, two episodes that we knew we were going to do, and the other six we did not. So, I think that's worked out really nicely as well, because we just talk and we kind of see where it goes. And that was always like, the goal for this, anyway, was just to have real authentic conversation and just to see where it went.
And I think that's a testament to the strength of this, not just the project, but the friendship too. Is like the ability to have just done that eight times in a matter of a week and a half. And, I think that feels…
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm not sick of you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's true.
MEGAN NEFF: I don't know how you feel on me, but I'm not sick of you.
PATRICK CASALE: No, I'm not sick of you. My brain is just fried.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, let's do our, like, wrap up and go get a brain break.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, brain breaks. Brain break season three. So, yeah, you know, as we wrap this up, as we always say, you can find us in a lot of places. And we know that to be true, but really, we want you to find us where it kind of meets your needs and what works best for you, whether that be on YouTube or on our website, just reading the transcripts, or like, if you want to go deeper and join our Substack, or simply listen to these episodes on all major platforms. Like, really whatever meets your needs and really supports you in the way that you need to be supported. So, we really appreciate all of your support and listening to this.
And another shout out to Jane app for all of you mental health clinicians who need a electronic health record, use code DCPOD. And they have sponsored this collection. And have been a really good support system too. So, we're thankful for that. Do you have anything you want to throw into the mix?
MEGAN NEFF: No, that was beautiful. Just-
PATRICK CASALE: All right.
MEGAN NEFF: Just yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: We'll stay beautiful. We will see you in eight weeks. And thanks again for listening.
