Episode 109 (Season 2): The Power of Play: Holding the Heavy with Laughter and Connection
Jun 05, 2025
Show Notes
Finding joy and playfulness can feel complicated when the world feels heavy and overwhelming. For neurodivergent people, accessing moments of laughter and lightness—especially while navigating guilt or social pressure to be productive—becomes an essential, yet nuanced, form of self-preservation and resistance.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the vital importance of play, laughter, and connection for neurodivergent well-being. They candidly discuss their personal struggles and breakthroughs with accessing joy, examine the intersection of play with heavy emotions, and share how dark humor, rituals, and community banter can help neurodivergent people process pain, release shame, and hold complexity. From the guilt often tied to playfulness during difficult times to the healing power of connection and humor, Patrick and Megan Anna offer both real talk and creative strategies for bringing more lightness into your everyday life.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover accessible ways to bring more laughter and play into your day, even if you struggle with traditional hobbies or feel weighed down by the world’s pain.
- Gain insight into the intersection of play, cultural resistance, and advocacy, with reflections on how joy can be both a survival tool and a form of empowerment for marginalized communities.
- Hear honest, relatable stories from Patrick and Megan Anna about dealing with shame, executive dysfunction, and neurodivergent awkwardness—and learn how humor can be a bridge for connection and healing.
If you’ve ever felt guilty about seeking joy or struggled to figure out how to let playfulness back in, this episode will encourage you to embrace laughter and lightness as essential parts of the neurodivergent experience. Explore what it means to hold the heavy while still making room for play.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Divergent Conversations in our collection of Worn Down and Worthy, Not Your Typical Wellness. And today, we are going to talk about play, which is kind of a continuation of our last conversation, which was creativity.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so we, for context for listeners, we literally just recorded the creativity, and we're still recording. And so, we're probably still a little bit in some heaviness.
And one thought that just came into my head is, I think, if creativity helps us metabolize pain, among other things, I think play helps us hold it. I think it helps to hold the heavy. And that play can be so important in times like these. And at the same time, it can bring on a lot of guilt, because it can be like, "Well, I shouldn't be laughing, or playing, or experiencing joy right now, because do you see what is happening in the world? I must be a shit person if I'm experiencing any sort of positive emotion right now."
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yeah. And I know that we both kind of talked about this off-air and how we've experienced that ourselves. And I know I experience that for sure, where I'm like, "How can I possibly take joy, or find joy, or experience playfulness when all of this horrific stuff is happening?" Like, we're not going to go down a list of horrific things, because it would never [CROSSTALK 00:04:38]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:04:38] that.
PATRICK CASALE: It would never end. And I think-
MEGAN NEFF: And it would be updated by the time this airs [CROSSTALK 00:04:44].
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, by the time we post it there would be 1000 new atrocities, which is a whole different conversation. But if we don't allow for ourselves to find joy even in these small moments or in these small like blips in our lives, I think, that we've lost our humanity in a lot of ways, too, if we're not allowed to access playfulness and joy.
And we referenced Yunetta Smith, who was on the podcast before. I wish I could find that clip to reference exactly what she said in terms of, like, just black joy. She was talking about black joy and how important it is in terms of resistance and advocacy, and how you have to find these moments where you don't let other people take that away from you, and how important that is.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. If we could find that clip, I'd love to share it in our show notes, because it was really powerful. And I think she said something in there like, "Don't mistake our laughter for kind of not experiencing pain or not doing advocacy."
And I feel like she said something about, like, black people have had to figure out how to keep their aliveness and humanity amidst so much oppression and suffering. And yeah, the way she said it was, obviously, much better than either of us can try to recap it, but it is-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:06:13].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. But it is part of resistance. It is part of resistance to hold on to our humanity in that way through play, through lightness, through laughter, through joy.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's such a different perspective, I think, the suffering of white people sometimes and how we respond to things, because we're so not used to like being the persecuted, or the people who need to resist, or being threatened.
And I would say, like, you know, there are times with my wife and I where we talk about this, and she's like, "Don't confuse, like, my laughter, and mood, and the silliness, and the things that I enjoy for not paying attention to what's happening around me, right? Like, I'm very aware, but I'm not going to let them take this from me." And I'm just like, always like, "Damn, okay, I need to be a bit more resilient then."
MEGAN NEFF: I love that, "I'm not going to let them take this from me." And that is what I think what white people have to learn from movements that have gone before us, especially, black and brown, movements of if they've lived in oppressive systems that have been trying to take their humanity for a very long time, and they have found some very beautiful, powerful, creative rituals to hold on to their humanity. And white people, we haven't figured that out yet, because we're usually the ones taking humanity. And, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yeah. And I think, like, this concept that we're thinking about and talking about right now is a culmination of all of our episodes combined, of like, community, connection, creativity, everything swirled into one to be able to access playfulness, joyfulness, and just really having those experiences throughout your day, or your week, or your month.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Now, here's the other side of the coin for both of us. You mentioned, I don't remember what episode it was, that you had put into ChatGPT, "What are some hobbies for me?"
And that, I think, is what I get stuck on, is like, okay, when I look at it as this meta concept of like I need to find new hobbies or things that I enjoy that becomes really daunting. But if I can try to figure out, like, moments throughout the day where I can experience joy, or laughter, or playfulness, or silliness or whatever, that feels way more accessible to me than like going to jujitsu or, like, going to pottery paint, or figuring out what else I like do with my life.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, I'm the same way in that, and partly, every hobby I've ever had, I try to make it productive, because I'm just addicted to this productivity thing. It's really bad. And, like, hyper-achieving.
So, like, I had a huge crochet season, and then I was like, "How do I start an Etsy shop?" This was in my mid-20s. Yeah, hobbies. I have a complex relationship to hobbies. And so, I'm more similar to you, it's finding the energy. And I think of play as an energy, not necessarily an activity.
So, when I think about when I dip into playfulness, it's actually like shocker, usually, through connection, which has been a running theme here. It's maybe like in The Nook, if I'm in the forums, and I'm chatting with people, and there's sarcasm, or there's humor. Humor is a huge one for me.
And recently, on Substack, I found some new connections. And I found people for whom they really appreciate dark humor. And that, to me, has been an interesting discovery of I knew I liked dark humor, but I've often kept it pretty closeted, because dark humor can be pretty, well, confusing, and disorienting, and worrisome to some. But finding people for whom we can just let it rip with, like, dark humor, that has been so playful for me recently. So, a lot of it is humor, and connection, and kind of banter in community. I think that's my favorite way to play right now.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, like, I've really enjoyed that as well. And with the friends who I wake up to, like, have sent me funny reels, or funny Gifs, or funny memes throughout the day, and I wake up to like five or six people who do this consistently. And I just, like, watch them and laugh, and it allows me to feel connected to them. And I'm like, "Oh, they were thinking about me when they sent this. And they know my humor style. And it's super helpful." It's just like these little things, you know, that can be so useful.
And I think that for me, I so often have a hard time experiencing that, like joyfulness or playfulness. So, dark humor is also the key to my heart. And actually, I have a thread in my group practice going right now because we're doing, like, a virtual game night tonight. And the thread has gotten pretty dark already. And I'm like, not even involved in it. I'm just watching it as I'm doing other things today. And I'm just like, chuckling to myself. I'm like, "Good, we're all kind of on the same page for whatever the hell we're going to be doing tonight."
MEGAN NEFF: Well, it goes back to how play helps us hold the heavy, right? And clinicians right now, there's a lot of heaviness clinicians are holding. So, finding ways to hold that is so important. And it can look weird. It can look weird sometimes.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, if you're us, it's probably going to look weird most of the time. And I think that's important too. And, you know, one thing that we were thinking about too, is like the guilt that comes with play, or the guilt that comes with joy at times when things are going really poorly and are really a struggle. And that's why so often, like we talked about in that content consumption episode, sometimes we really need separation to be able to access play and joy as well.
And the other side of the coin is like our devices also are a gateway into play, and joy, and connection community. So, trying to find the things that work for you. And I have, like, specific video clips, or YouTube clips, or things that I know if I really need to laugh, like I just need to watch them on repeat, or I need to watch them again and again, and they really do help my mood.
One thing that I love, for those of you who are Ted Lasso fans, and there is a scene where, where Roy and Keely are talking with Phoebe, Roy's niece. And she has, like, horrifically bad breath, and she's like, breathing it in Keeley's face and in Roy's face. And they're both reacting like, "This is horrible."
And Keely goes first, and she makes this face, and Roy goes, "Hell, oi. It can't be that bad." And then, she breathes in his face and goes, "I think you might be dying." And every time that scene comes on, Arielle is cackling. Like, laughing so hard. And that brings me so much joy to like experience that on repeat whenever I need it.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, you have a video of watching it and Arielle's laughter in the back.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, that's such a sweet… That's so connecting. I love that.
PATRICK CASALE: And like, if I know she's having a bad day, I can turn that scene on, and it elicits the same reaction and response almost every single time.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. I love that. I think that's such a good, you know, we're trying to pull out a few, like, tips for people. I think that's such a good one of having, like, a laugh playlist or a play box.
PATRICK CASALE: This episode is on play and joy, so [CROSSTALK 00:14:28]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:14:28]-
PATRICK CASALE: …that as you will.
MEGAN NEFF: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:14:29] will, have a play box.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I just got awkward and read, take it from me, Patrick, you've got the happy [INDISCERNIBLE 00:14:38]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, I think that, like, having access to these things.
MEGAN NEFF: Can I actually-
PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: People keep asking us to do a series on sex. And I'm like, you really don't want me and Patrick talking about sex. Like, it's…
PATRICK CASALE: It is dumb.
MEGAN NEFF: It is dumb.
PATRICK CASALE: It would just be so awkward, so uncomfortable. Talk about, like, laugh. If you all need joy and laughter in your life, maybe we do need to do that episode.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh, we should.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:15:04] embarrassingly saying things, and then cringing, and laughing because we're so uncomfortable.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh. So, I actually would feel comfortable recording that, like, for, like, the little Substack community we're building. I would not feel comfortable releasing it into the world. That would be so awkward, which would be so funny.
PATRICK CASALE: It would be very awkward and it would be very funny. Yeah, God, I can't go down that rabbit hole right now, but…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, sorry. I interrupted you. Back to-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:15:38]
MEGAN NEFF: …play box pivot. You were just going to see me from my discomfort.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's helpful. I think, like, if you have your animals at home, like being able to play with your animals, like being able to just laugh at them. I laugh at my Shih Tzu all the time. He drives me insane, but he's so funny to look at and to laugh at. So, like, it allows me to… even when he's doing the most obnoxious, annoying shit, and I can just look at his little face with his, like, mismatched teeth, and he's always looking at you with his like overbite, and I just laugh at him. And it just, like, helps me just feel a little bit more relieved and relaxed in certain moments.
So, like, there are these things that are accessible around us on a pretty consistent basis. And trying to get laughter more into your life, like, even in small doses and spurts right now when things feel really freaking heavy.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, laughter is huge. Laughter is huge. Yeah. I like comedies. Do you like comedies?
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, I love, yeah. But they need to be, like, really fucked up comedies. Like, I-
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, like, comics. Wait [CROSSTALK 00:16:45]-
PATRICK CASALE: Oh my gosh [CROSSTALK 00:16:46].
MEGAN NEFF: Like stand-up comedians, there you go. Like, I, actually, don't love comedies. It's usually too sensory overwhelming. But I like comedians.
PATRICK CASALE: So, what I sent you the other day, you were like, "This is [CROSSTALK 00:16:56]."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I don't know how you can watch that. Like, that is so sensory overwhelming, like the slapstick humor. Like Ted Lasso, I can do because it's funny, but it's like, metabolized funny, but just slapstick, or like Will Ferrell, I cannot. No, that's so sensory overwhelming.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:17:13] funny anymore. But I think I used to find him really enjoyable, like maybe a decade ago.
MEGAN NEFF: I've always just found him sensory overwhelming.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, I'm sure he's a lovely human or, I'm not sure, maybe he's a lovely human.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:17:28] reaction, though, you know? I think it's like, very reactionary type of humor, but I love stand-up comedians. Yeah, absolutely. Do you have favorites that you are like, I could watch this person's, like, stand up or this, like gig over and over?
MEGAN NEFF: I do, but I'm really bad at names, even musicians. So, I do, but I would blank on names. There's someone, her first name is Taylor, and she talks about bipolar, and mental health, and religious trauma. And she's just really funny. But the way she talks about mental health, I think it's mostly bipolar. I feel like she maybe talks about other aspects of mental health. And then, also the way she talks about religious trauma, I really like her work. I like comedians who, like, offer a critique of society. I used to like Louis CK before, like-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: He got, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, before he started pulling his, yeah, before he got canceled. Let's use that word.
MEGAN NEFF: Before that, I really liked Louis CK, yeah, because he was really good at doing the social critique-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:18:31] went down a dark path of a lot of transphobia, and it was just like, "God [CTROSSTALK 00:18:37]"
MEGAN NEFF: Who did?
PATRICK CASALE: Dave Chappelle.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, right. [CROSSTALK 00:18:42]-
PATRICK CASALE: We had Sam Silverman on here, who was a comedian and a psychiatrist. And we talked about that on that episode right where, like, it's like, this critique of not only yourself, but life in general. And I think that is so relatable and so hilarious.
There's a comedian who went through sobriety. His name is John Mulaney. And he's kind of obnoxious in a lot of ways. And some of you may know him, but he has a stand-up on Netflix about his process of getting sober and his active addiction years. And it's just, to me, absolutely freaking hysterical. And I've watched it, and I've been like, "Arielle, watch this. This is so funny." And she's like, "This is so fucking stupid." And I love it. So, I can watch that repeatedly and laugh at the same jokes over, and over, and over again.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. Hannah Gatsby. I can't believe I didn't mention Hannah Gatsby. Hannah Gatsby's work, which is always, like, deeply funny and deeply emotional. And, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I think poking fun at ourselves, and our own experiences, and our own struggles helps us, like you said, hold the heavy in a lot of ways. And I'm thinking about moments, I think a lot of autistic people can probably relate to, like, other people finding us funny when we're not trying to be funny, because just delivery sometimes.
And I remember sitting with my mom, and her husband, and saying something, and he was like, "You could be a stand-up comedian with your like, deadpan delivery." And I'm like, "I think it's just called me being autistic. I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm not trying to be funny right now but..."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, my humor gets missed a lot because I'll be sarcastic in a really dry way, or through pattern recognition. Because I remember a lot of biographical details, so I'll bring back something someone said but in an ironic way. And then, they just think, I'm, like, totally misunderstanding them. It's really fun.
PATRICK CASALE: And then, they misunderstand you, and then it goes like in repeat, in a circle, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's fun.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I think that for me, this is a topic that's interesting, because I keep realizing I'm like, trying to offer solutions here, and I don't really have any. I just think that I have to laugh at myself or at horrific things all the time in order for me to get through my day.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, oh, absolutely. Like, because the option is to laugh or shame spiral. And yeah, like, you sent me, which I think is a really funny typo, the other day, and I did correct it, because I was like, I'll just feel better. And you sent it to me soon enough. And it was so funny because I literally, I was doing my OCD checking thing of all my posts. And I literally had the thought it'd be so funny if there's a typo in this title page.
So, I went and checked to make sure that epidemic was spelled right. But the typo was so ironic. Instead of saying… Because I think the title was like, Not an Epidemic a Failure to See, but it's a Filter to See. Like, I did a typo on failure. So, filter is a new word because [CROSSTALK 00:22:06]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:22:06] for so long to like, should I send this? I didn't want you to have to, like, stress it. I also didn't know if you cared. So, I was like, "I don't even know if I should send this." But then I told you, like, I thought it was like, when you see your friend have something in your teeth, do you say something because you're like, "Hey, you have something in your teeth." Or do people just let it be and you're like, "So, I was just trying to really sit with that, and I didn't want it to create any stress for you." And then, I went down this rabbit hole of like, "Oh my God. All of Megan Anna's stuff is in front of so many people, and all this stuff, and like, she's perceived in all of these ways. I need to tell her this."
But then, I instantly sent it. And I was like, "I wish I didn't send that. What if she gets offended by this? What if she's like, 'Patrick, this just ruined my night. I had to go back and, like, fix everything and repost it.'" I really went down both of those paths.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, the Megan Anna that lives in your head is kind of a bitch. Like, why would I ever do that? And how do we fix the Megan Anna that lives in your head?
PATRICK CASALE: I love the Megan Anna that lives in my head. I know that the OCD is strong, and I know that if someone told me the same thing, I would like be like, "Oh, fuck. I got to go find all the places it's posted. Now I got to fix it. Now I got to do…" And I told you I spelled epidemic, epidemis the other day and forgot. And I did the same thing. I was like, but I was rushing to post something in reaction to my own emotions about something which I'm trying better not to do that. And I posted this thing about epidemic, but it was epidemis, and now it lives forever because Instagram doesn't let you edit your photos, which is so stupid.
MEGAN NEFF: Especially, because it's gone viral. Like, if it's gone viral and then you posted. So, my experience of that was like, I was like, "Oh, shit." Because, yeah, it is a bit of work to repost. But I was also very glad to know because it was pretty early I just posted it. But also, I didn't actually freak out in this. I was like, "That's annoying because I've just spent five hours doing a task that feels like it should not have taken me that long."
But, shoot my thought. Where'd it go? But I didn't have the, like, shame spiral. So, the first time this happened to me, it's actually really funny. It was one of the first times I was posting on ADHD, and the cover, it was a carousel post, was Five Mistakes, or, like, something about Five Mistakes in ADHD, or Five Things I Wish I'd learned. And on the cover image, like mistakes or ADHD, there's a typo, and I didn't notice till it had gone viral and someone mentioned it. And I did start to have a shame spiral. And then, I was like, this is hilarious. This is literally what I'm talking about with ADHD mistakes is like I just don't see things like that.
So, there are times that I'm like, "That's annoying, that that's viral." But mostly I'm just like, "Yeah, that's the ADHD, that's the dyslexia." I'm just showing off at this point [CROSSTALK 00:25:04]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, if you talk to like a social media marketing person they'd be like, "Put typos in your post for a reason. Because then people will, like, comment on them and pick them out, and drive your engagement." Which is not-
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, are you serious? That's a strategy?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a strategy.
MEGAN NEFF: That's so gross.
PATRICK CASALE: But my mind then was like, it doesn't work that way for me, so I can't allow for that to happen. And with the epidemis situation for me, I started laughing, because so many comments were about the fact that I spelled, autism is not an epidemis instead of epidemic. And I was like, I guess this is driving engagement. I guess this is fine. Like, I don't know what to do about this anymore. So, I was about to delete it. But then, there were all these comments that were really good comments, and I'm like, I don't want to delete their work. So…
MEGAN NEFF: So, creator tip of the day, intentionally misspell things.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I've heard people say, like, intentionally ask controversial questions or to have hot takes, and that just seems so cruel to me, because I'm going to intentionally activate people's nervous systems to get engagement?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I can't go that path.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I mean, I don't follow any of the engagement. Like, I don't.
PATRICK CASALE: No.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I just think that's the wrong question to be asking. It should be asking, like, how do I show up for people and provide them something [CROSSTALK 00:26:23]-
PATRICK CASALE: I agree 100%. Someone I know used to put like, in their videos, little like, what they would call like, Easter Eggs on their screen. So, like, folders up on the task bar that would be like, Bill Clinton's sex, whatever. Like, literally things that would make people see it and be like, do you see this thing in this screen? And the amount of engagement was enormous from this stuff. And I was just like, I cannot do that. I cannot live with, like, having to filter through the comments or deal with the like responses to stuff like this. This is not how I can operate so…
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and I would judge you if you were doing that, because it's manipulative.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:27:08]
MEGAN NEFF: It's manipulating people's attention. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, feels really gross. I feel like our businesses would be an interesting spot if we embraced like "neurotypical" marketing strategies.
MEGAN NEFF: Interesting spots like worse, better.
PATRICK CASALE: Probably more lucrative, but not better. You would be value trading. You would be trading, like, value of what you stand for versus capitalism is really what it comes down to.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I want to be able to, like, live with myself very well. So, yeah, yeah, no, thanks.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, not for me. I don't know how we got on this topic.
MEGAN NEFF: It is because play and... So, that was the first time I caught a big typo that had gone viral. I started to shame, and then I caught it with play, and so, yeah, when you caught my falter, that was also, I was able to, like, because I created a neural pathway there, of like, oh, okay, I can respond to play here. And I did that in that of like, this is really funny. And so, being able to laugh at ourselves.
Same things with my awkwardness. Like, I do genuinely, I was sharing this, I sometimes will get jealous of you and your cute little social ligaments, and I wish I had more of those. But being able to make fun of my awkwardness, and that's why I also don't mind the word awkward, is that's one of the ways that I bring some playfulness to how I experience myself.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: The area, you know, where I've not been able to be playful, but I'm trying, is my ADHD executive functioning. So, so I've started doing kind of business coaching/consulting, and it's really put a light on just how, like, how significant my executive functioning struggles really are, and I think I have a lot of shame around that. And so, you know, I've got a space in The Nook, The ADHD Confessional, or The Neurodivergent Confessional, so sometimes I'll post pictures, and I'm trying to be playful with it, but that one's hard for me, because there's a lot of shame, but when I'm able to be playful it helps melt some of that shame.
PATRICK CASALE: What are some of the, like, playful ways you've found that are helpful for that specific part of your life?
MEGAN NEFF: I think making fun of myself. So, my team knows how much I struggle, because they're often organizing after me, like my trail of chaos. So, maybe it might be sharing the ridiculousness that is my desktop or the ridiculousness that is my bathroom counter, or sometimes I don't even post it, but, like, I found something really gross. I'm not even going to share it because it's too much shame. But I was like, this would be such a funny post, of like, taking a picture of this thing that happened that's really gross, #ADHDisnotcute.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep.
MEGAN NEFF: So, often it's making social media posts in my head that I would never actually post again. Again, shame. But, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Do you think it would be useful at all to, like, actually make the post, not post it, but go through the act of actually making it?
MEGAN NEFF: No, because that's one of my OCD things, is around posting and, like, accidentally posting inappropriate things, even though I literally don't have inappropriate things. But, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure. So, you would be, like, your OCD would immediately kick in and, like, check all your platforms over and over and over again. Like, did I post this thing?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. Well, that's an interesting strategy. I bet a lot of ADHDers can relate to some of that, because I know I struggle so often with my own executive functioning. And, you know, it just feels so chaotic so often, that being able to laugh at it would be really humanizing.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I was going to ask you if you bring any play, like, around other just, like, things you feel shame around, or vulnerable around?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think I feel shame around so much that I do such a good job of doing self-deprecating humor all the time. Like, even when I'm on stages speaking, I have to make fun of myself. Like, I have to do it.
MEGAN NEFF: Because it's playful and it helps hold it. Also, I just had an association, can we make a shame bingo card? Like a bingo card, of like ourselves?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Oh, my God, yes, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: What would be on your bingo card?
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, my God, so much. It's like, did I react poorly to something? Does this person not like me because I said something a certain way? Did I, like, have an interaction that went poorly? Did I forget to do something? There's so much, I mean, there's just so much.
MEGAN NEFF: And so much of that really is attachment-based for you, again.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Are people upset with me? Did I forget something?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:58] core belief of mine is, like, are people upset with me? Did I do something wrong? Like, yeah, it's so deep. Yeah, bingo card for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, I think we need to gamify this. Like, literally, we should do the play thing. So, let's make a bingo card for you and a bingo card for me, and then people, whoever gets the most… What is it called? Bingos or straight lines? Bingos? The most bingos on your card or my card, it's either team Patrick or team Megan Anna.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, yeah, we can do that.
MEGAN NEFF: And then, we'll see whose shame brings the most people around.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that'll be a good post. You love creating graphics, so I can give you all the shame pieces for myself. Yeah, I think laughing at it has to happen for me. I noticed that laughter, self-deprecating humor, is really regulating to my nervous system.
So, if I'm feeling really, really anxious about a thing, professionally especially, and I can make fun of myself, and the audience can laugh, good, I might drop immediately into, like, the experience. But otherwise, it very much feels like heart beating out of chest, so anxious, so, like, much in perfectionism mode, so much struggling to, like, drop into authenticity and vulnerability, but I have to elicit the laughter. I think I could be a good stand-up comedian if I really put my heart into it.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I could see that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, maybe I need a career change. I've already been thinking that. So, if it's just hour after hour of self-deprecating humor, I feel like, yeah, why not?
MEGAN NEFF: I would come.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, going back to your bingo card idea, shame, active addiction for almost 10 years of my life, so many things that I feel shame about. But so many things that I can make fun of myself for now too. And I think it's really built me up into the person that I'm supposed to be.
MEGAN NEFF: So, play can be connecting, can melt shame.
PATRICK CASALE: You're doing the social ligament thing now.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Role reversal, yeah. I think we're both tired, too. I think that's what's also happening is like our first episode today was heavy, and now we're like, how do we hold the heavy?
MEGAN NEFF: Play, the lightness, yeah. I have felt an energy increase, though, as we've been talking. Like, there's been elements of this conversation that's felt playful to me. And like, I've felt more energy in my body as we've gotten into a more playful energy, you and me.
PATRICK CASALE: Well, one thing we've said, I think, it was last week, maybe or just in general, is when you and I can both be on here, and laugh together, and like laugh at each other, that we feel more connected. And I feel that way. Like, when we're both like laughing about this stuff, it makes me feel more, not only connected to you, but just as a human. Like, to laughing about stuff.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think laughter is so connecting, so connecting, yeah. And that's gets back to neurodivergent community is, I think we do, like, we'll all have different humor, but there is kind of a like a flavor to neurodivergent humor that, like, we can get and appreciate, and so to be able to find the people with whom we can enjoy humor and laughter, and [CROSSTALK 00:35:48].
PATRICK CASALE: And for those of us who are neurodivergent mental health professionals, there's a lot of darkness in the helping profession, as we've talked about, there's a lot of dark humor in profession, and then all helping professions, really, when you are having to experience a lot of heaviness of humanity, you need an outlet for it. You really do need to channel and release it.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. I feel like we're getting to our summary time of where we tell people to go do all the things-
PATRICK CASALE: It's your turn [CROSSTALK 00:36:27]-
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, but what if we made it authentic? Because I feel like every show ends with like, not you, but like podcasts and YouTube. Like, if you're listening like, hit subscribe button. So, if you do enjoy our conversations, first of all, welcome to the weird club, because that's just, no, that was weird. Okay, scratch that. This is why there's a script.
No, sometimes I'm genuinely like, why do so many people listen to us? But then, I'm also, I think I get it. But if you're one of those people that do listen to us, okay, real talk. Like, we have been tired, and we do love this podcast, and we're going to continue and keep showing up, because we really enjoy each other and believe in this work. And there are some ways that, like, you can legit help us if you are enjoying it.
So, I don't know this as much as you do, but things like leaving Apple reviews that helps it so other people can find us. So, it also increases neurodivergent advocacy, because then people can find us. So, if you believe in the kind of stuff we're saying.
If you are a therapist, and you want to go check out Jane, first of all, like they're doing some really cool stuff. They're one of the safer platforms for autistic people. But also, that means that they'll be more likely to want to continue to work with us. So, that's a really tangible way [CROSSTALK 00:37:58]-
PATRICK CASALE: Which allows to create more free content.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, which allows us to make more free content. Yep, exactly.
PATRICK CASALE: Because we want accessible, free content, and we're both exhausted, so we just have to figure out the balance.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And also, speaking of accessibility, I don't know that people realize this, we've always made transcripts free on the website. That's not behind a paywall. It never will be behind a paywall, because that's an accessibility thing. So, all the transcripts are always on the on the website.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:38:28].
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, speaking of interconnection, we've been talking about interconnection. Like, if folks are wanting to be, like, feel interconnected to us, there are ways they can support our work through, like, subscribe all that good stuff.
PATRICK CASALE: No, that's a good way to name that. Like, there are ways to do that. And we have a YouTube channel. So, all of these video recordings go on YouTube. So, if that's your processing style and listening style, they're on there with captions. The transcripts are always on our website, divergentpod.com I think.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. If you are a therapist in private practice and you need a new EHR, use code DCPOD, because you'll get two months and it's in a weird spot when you go to sign up. It's all the way at the bottom. It kind of says, like, corporate-
MEGAN NEFF: Education, association, or corporate code.
PATRICK CASALE: …association code. That's [CROSSTALK 00:39:23]-
MEGAN NEFF: That's one of the signup page, yep.
PATRICK CASALE: And then, we also have a Substack that we are getting off the ground. So, there are lots of ways to support. And Megan Anna is right. If you like our podcast, if you feel like it's valuable, rating it highly on Apple podcasts and on Spotify is super helpful for us. And it takes about 30 seconds of your time unless you want to leave a one-star review about how much you hate my voice. Then maybe share that on a different podcast.
MEGAN NEFF: Then maybe skip the review.
PATRICK CASALE: Or give us a five-star review, but still say it. Just give us the five stars. That'd be great. Anyway, that's a good closing statement for today. And we are going to continue this collection on #NotYourTypicalWellness, and record some more episodes tomorrow. So, bye.
