Episode 108 (Season 2): Using Creativity to Anchor into Aliveness and Humanity
May 29, 2025
Show Notes
Creativity isn’t just a spark or a talent — it’s a vital tether to our humanness, especially in a world that can feel overwhelming or isolating for neurodivergent people. Whether you feel energized and alive, or stuck in a season of fatigue, the pursuit and practice of creativity can connect us to ourselves, our aliveness, and our communities.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss what creativity truly means as neurodivergent people navigating complex feelings of energy, burnout, connection, and disconnection. They share personal experiences with creative flow, discuss the role of embodiment and play in sparking new ideas, explore how creativity acts as resistance against dehumanizing forces, and reflect on how moments of aliveness are often intertwined with pain and longing. Through honest conversation, they highlight how creativity is not only a coping tool, but a way to metabolize emotion, reclaim joy, and find meaning — even in dark seasons.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Hear thought-provoking discussion on creativity as an act of reclaiming humanness—not just productivity or output — and learn how it can ground us during difficult times.
- Gain practical, relatable insights into how movement, community, connection, and even music can help reignite creativity and support emotional regulation for neurodivergent listeners.
- Listen to honest, nuanced reflections about the bittersweet nature of aliveness, the link between creativity and pain, and how to recognize when solitude is helpful versus when it becomes isolating.
If you’re longing for creative sparks or seeking permission to honor your energy cycles and emotions, this episode offers validation and gentle encouragement. Join Patrick and Megan Anna as they unpack what creativity means for neurodivergent lives—and find new inspiration to show up for yourself, wherever you are, and reconnect with your own aliveness.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. I feel like I can say this with more energy than I did last week, so that I'm [CROSSTALK 00:03:17]-
MEGAN NEFF: I was just going to say, like, you've got a little pep in your step.
PATRICK CASALE: Little bit. I feel like I'm skipping now, half skipping. You've been mentioning how we're going to be like frolicking or skipping.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, we sent a few, like, GIF spec. Well, I sent you a few. I sent you an Eeyore GIF with a cloud raining, and then I sent a GIF of skipping. You can guess which one is who.
PATRICK CASALE: I need to know, because your pace is, like, slowing majorly. So, now you're like, maybe you're taking over my space. I don't know. We'll see.
MEGAN NEFF: I know. Last week I had a lot of energy. This week, well, I'm getting a cold. But yeah, this week I'm kind of back in what is my more typical baseline. But I will bring as much pep as I can muster, not that I have to, that's interesting, but-
PATRICK CASALE: No, you don't have to. And we want to, like, be our true selves here. So, whichever energy shows up is fine with me.
And today we are going to do a continuation of Worn Down and Worthy, not worthless, #NotYourTypicalWellness. But we are going to talk about creativity today. And you mentioned something off-air that caught my ear. Like, we'll figure it out as we go. And for me, that's like creativity in a nutshell, that's like the foundation of everything that I do that is creative is like, I'll figure it out as I go. And I'm just curious what creativity means for you.
MEGAN NEFF: Ooh, that's a good question. So, my brain went to Karl Marx. Isn't it so fun the way I answer questions?
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: Like, yeah, what does creativity mean to you? Well, let's talk about Karl Marx.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so…
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:05:09] radars and we will get on more radars.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, right. Shoot. I mean, KM. Let's talk about KM.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I studied sociology in undergrad. So, like, when I say KM, I'm talking about like KM proper, not what his theory became, because his writing, and then what his theory became, like, have some differences.
PATRICK CASALE: Very different, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: He has this theory that as soon as I learned I was like, it's been one of those anchoring theories for me, but it's the whole idea of kind of alienation of labor, which is also about alienation from our humanness and our human nature. What he was concerned about was the shift that was happening where we started putting a price on our labor, right? So, your labor is worth $7 an hour. And-
PATRICK CASALE: # [INDISCERNIBLE 00:05:57].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, exactly. And then, you can buy it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep.
MEGAN NEFF: So, what he talks about is how creation, so, like crafting a chair is an expression of our humanness. It's how we express our human nature. So, once we alienate from our labor, and then it's like we sell it for this amount, we're also alienating from our humanness.
So, creativity, for me is connection to my humanness, and my human nature, and an expression of my humanness.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. I really like that. Like, how that's interwoven. Because when I'm feeling creative, or in a flow state, I just feel better. I feel more alive. I feel more connected to the people in the world around me and just my environment. I know we've talked so much about, like, the ADHD side of creativity and the romanticism of what creativity can lead to, and sometimes it is like chasing that feeling in a lot of ways, because I really need that to feel sparked, or alive, or energetic, or just human, like you're mentioning. I think humanness is really a good anchoring point for that.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, humanness and aliveness, because you're right. For me too, it's feeling connected to aliveness. Yeah, absolutely.
And this is a thought I've been sitting with this week is how, you know, what we're recording, and it's end of April now. How important it is that we find those anchor points to hold on to our humanness right now and our aliveness. There's a lot of forces right now that want us to dehumanize, that want us to dissociate. And finding practices where we can hold on to ourselves, where we can hold on to our humanity, is so important right now.
PATRICK CASALE: It's one of the purest forms of resistance, in a way, right? It's like anchoring into being, alive, and human, and connected. It kind of ties back to our conversation about community. And I think being creative within your community is so important, too. Like, to share that mutual, like, community creativity process, and that exchange of energy, and that exchange of ideas, even. Like, super important for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, the way you just described it, it sounds like play. And I think play is so beautiful, and mutual play. And that's hard for us. It's hard for us to play, but it's hard for us to play with others.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And weirdly, you know, is speaking of like that and parallel play. And I played soccer for the first time in 13 months the other day. [CROSSTALK 00:08:46]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, how did that go?
PATRICK CASALE: …like, exactly what we're talking about, just that humanness. And there is creativity, right? In sport. There's creativity in tactic. There's creativity in, like, how you show up and approach the game. And for me, it makes me feel alive, you know, coming back from a major injury. And felt really good afterwards. I mean, my body definitely let me know that I'm almost 39 and so much slower than all of our 25-year-old teammates. But you know, it was good to be back out there, and it just felt really like exhilarating for me. And I need more of that in my life, too.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm so glad that you're able to access that again, like access movement. I know you've had a lot of, like, pain stuff and the calf thing. And that's huge. And that also speaks to like embodied creativity. Like, music, dance, sports, soccer. Like, that is huge.
PATRICK CASALE: It is. Movement is so important for us, right? Like, we talk about it. And I know both of us kind of live, lead, at times, a very sedentary lifestyle. And my body acknowledges that. Like, I feel stiff, I feel a lot of chronic pain. And I'm like, "Damn, I went outside for 20 minutes today and sat outside with my dog." And I was like, "I should probably take my wife's advice" where she tells me I need to leave the house once a day. But you know, like, it's just helps me feel more connected to the nature around me, too. I live in a really beautiful part of the country, as do you, and the weather's really nice here right now. And that also helps me feel creative. It also helps me feel alive and connected. And I need that change of scenery or environment to often feel creative and connected.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that you went there, because like often we need… I mean, sometimes it comes internally, but we often need, like, external sparks for our creativity, especially, if we are, like, in a season of fatigue or low energy. And that spark can be, yeah, for me too, like sunshine. So, like, in my backyard, I live in a forested area, so when there's sunshine, and I can go back there, and there's green space that is… So, even if I'm feeling low, that can spark it, or sometimes it'll be a conversation, or an idea.
But having those external sparks and knowing what they are, that's been huge for me, because, yeah, especially, when I'm low, I need someone to pull it out of me, someone or something to pull it out of me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I can totally relate to that. You know, that brings my mind back to, like, a lot of what we've been saying and joking around about, of like, "We know what to do." Right? To, like, take care of ourselves, and how often do we do it?
And I think so often, sometimes with a lot of guilt of, like, "Damn, I live in an area that a lot of people come to for vacation. And like, it's really, really beautiful from spring to fall. How often do I immerse myself in it?"
And the answer is not very often. And I always say to myself, "I'm going to do more of this this year." I really would like to, even when we did our… We were trying to hold each other accountable last year to, like, more movement and things like that. It lasted for like a week and a half, two weeks.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we were sending photos back and forth. Like, whenever I'd get on the bike, I would send you a bike pic. Yeah, we did it, like, lead up to Belize, and then it kind of stopped.
PATRICK CASALE: Life, you know? And life sometimes really gets in the way and our own emotional experiences, and physical experiences, and fatigue. Like, there's so many things that happen. And I think that's why we so often are looking for that spark, you know? Is to, like you said, drag us out of those spaces where we are feeling really low energy and just getting through the day feels like a lot. And I know that's a reality for a lot of you listening, is like just getting through the day and-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, and, oh-
PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead. Go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I should say like, it's a double-edged sword, right? Because we probably have to have some energy to access creativity, but then creativity gives us energy. So, it's like, how do I set the conditions? I think about this a lot. Like, how do I set the conditions to experience the thing I want to experience? I can't force creativity out of me. I can't force energy.
So, like, the other day, Monday, I told you, my mood, my energy had been high for a while, and then Monday, I kind of felt it crash. And, like, nothing sounded good. It was the kind of day of like, "Nothing sounds good. Nothing in life sounds good."
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: But I was like, "Okay, it's sunny out." Yesterday, I would have seen the sun and been like, "Oh my gosh, it's sunny. I'm going to go outside. And I'm so excited." But on Monday, I was like, "It's sunny out. I should go out. I'll feel better if I do."
PATRICK CASALE: My energy really rubbed off on you, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And I did it. And I did feel better. I was like, "Okay, I'm getting out of this funk. I've set the conditions."
PATRICK CASALE: And sometimes it's just like that little, little task, right? It doesn't have to be something monumental. And I think, like you said, knowing the conditions are really important, because everyone's going to be a little bit different in that regard.
And for me, when I'm feeling like that, when I'm like, "Ooh, I really need some stimulation. I really need, like, a little spark, and I need to force myself out of this." My instinct is to reach out for connection. And it's always because I've allowed myself to go too far in the opposite end. And that's what I was kind of mentioning to you prior to us recording, is I had offered connection and community to autistic and ADHD therapists here in Asheville.
And usually, I don't want to do those things ever. And it just came over me, and I was like, "I'm just going to put it out there." Of course, when it came up on my calendar, maybe my PDA surfaced, and I was like, "I think I'm just going to no show this, and maybe nobody will come."
But I put myself out there, got into that situation, went and got coffee for an hour. And it felt really good. And it just felt like really humanizing, to just be around for other autistic humans, and to share some fears about what has been happening. But also, to share some joys, and like things that are going really well in our lives, and things that we're maybe consuming, content-wise or media-wise, and shows that we've been watching. And it was just a great… I kind of phrased it in the post of like, "There's no need for eye contact. There's no need for small talk. We don't need to, like, stumble over how we're going to say hello to each other. Let's just show up as we want to show up. And like, let's really let that be as low stress and low stakes as possible." And that was really cool, too.
Of course, everyone kind of went to shake my hand or hug me, and then we did the awkward like, "I don't know what to do."
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh, that isn't always awkward. I love that you did that. I love that you did that.
PATRICK CASALE: That's kind of my instinct is like when I'm in that place and I really need to get pulled out of it, I really do need to seek that out more. And I feel like combating that isolation, that loneliness, that depression, that grief, whatever it is, that exhaustion, counterintuitively, by being, like, "I need to be around people." And that's when I really know that's what I really need to.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, there's this idea I really like, and I think I've actually shared it on a previous episode when we talked about burnout, but it comes from an article that was talking about burnout. And it's bugging me that I can't remember the author names right now. But we'll link it in show notes.
So, they talked about this idea of strategic social withdrawal. So, withdrawal, what you're describing, like when you retreat into yourself, when you're in low energy, low mood, that like, as mental health providers, we often see withdrawal, and that's a red flag that, like, the depression is worsening, or maybe the PTSD, or the anxiety is worsening, because maybe we're withdrawing to avoid the triggers for anxiety. But I loved this frame of strategic social withdrawal, which is sometimes autistic people do this to manage our sensory and energy spoons.
But what is so important, I think, for autistic people is then I think we can get into a pattern of like, well, this is self-care for me to withdraw. But it isn't always. Like, there's adaptive withdrawal and there's maladaptive withdrawal. There's withdrawal that serves us and withdrawal that doesn't.
So, what I'm hearing you say in that is like, yeah, sometimes it actually is good for me to push through demand avoidance, or I don't even like the language push through, stretch. I like the language of stretch, to stretch beyond the demand avoidance and to seek out connection.
And so, here's a loaded question, how do you know or how did you know the difference between, I'm withdrawing because, like, I'm tired and I just need replenishing, versus, oh, this kind of withdrawal is putting me in a dark space. And I think stretching beyond it would be good for me. Like, how did you know?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that you just kind of said, like, adaptive, or did you say adaptive and maladaptive?
MEGAN NEFF: Adaptive and maladaptive or helpful and unhelpful.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, adaptive withdrawal for me, I think is easy to pinpoint, and I can use like reference points of like, coming home from a hosting a retreat. Adaptive withdrawal for me is like, I've been around people for five days, I've had to host, I'm exhausted, travel blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Adaptive withdrawal is really just like, lay on the couch in the dark, watch shows that I like, not have anything on my calendar. It's perfect. It's actually like, I've really leaned into that cycle. And honestly, some of our episodes over the last two years have helped with that maladaptive withdrawal.
Okay, I talked about grief on one of our episodes a couple of weeks ago. And grief, I allowed it to be there. I allowed myself to experience the emotion of the loss that I had gone through, coupled with the fear of just being an autistic person in this country right now. It was not a good combination for me.
I acknowledge that, like retreating a bit was healthy and protective, but it gets to a point where then everything causes concern, I start to pick up on, like, everything. I'm way more hyper-vigilant, I'm way more fearful. Things that maybe are worth being worried about become, like, really big situations, right? Like catastrophe-sized situations. Those are the times where I'm like, "Okay. I think I need to be around like some other humans, and I am allowed to just go and be myself and be vulnerable." But I also don't have to be ruminating in things that are causing me a lot of distress and creating further and further, like slippage into this like abyss, almost.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that you know your tells like that and that, okay, the kind of a like, paranoia-ish thinking starts to take root. Hypervigilance goes up. This is what I know, this is no longer serving me. In my in my head now, of course, I'm seeing like a worksheet where it's like, identifying, like, the signals of like, this is an adaptive withdrawal. Like, this is maladaptive or helpful/unhelpful. Kind of, like, those are softer words.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Because that's huge. First of all, that you have that awareness of like, okay, this is what happens when I'm withdrawing to this degree, and I know what to do to kind of help me stretch out of this cycle.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally.
MEGAN NEFF: And this goes back to, like, our episode on community and connection, where I did have people like yourself and some other good friends who were reaching out to me to see if I was okay. And after like a couple of those messages from people who you trust to know like they're worried about you, that's when it's also an indication for me of like, "Maybe this is an indication that, like, things are really slipping really quickly, and I really need to try to almost do some stabilization or some regulation in that way."
MEGAN NEFF: So, it reminds me of the episode, our first episode of this season, where we talked about attachment. Like, you have a lot of awareness that, for you getting out of that, you need attachment, you need connection to get out of that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. What about for you? Same question.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, I was like feeling the hot potatoes, like, "Oh no, Patrick might ask me, and I don't [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:54].
So, yeah, I think I like how you described it of it's the experience of my internal world. So, when it's adaptive, either I am resting, or, I would say the most adaptive, I'm in a deeply creative space. I'm playing with ideas. So, I'm alone, but I don't feel alone because I'm with ideas and I'm generative. And that, to me, is kind of my happy place.
Now, there's times where I just need to withdrawal because I'm exhausted. And I probably need that, but it is hard for me because we've talked about hyper-productivity. I don't do well when I'm alone. So, I said this thing. I wrote this out like a month ago. I said, "I think I fill my head with ideas so that I don't have to be alone with my thoughts." Which feels like an OCD thing. And when I'm-
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:22:53].
MEGAN NEFF: What did you say?
PATRICK CASALE: I said, yeah, that totally hits home for me.
MEGAN NEFF: When I'm so fatigued that I can't engage ideas, that is not a great space for me, because then I am tired and alone with my ideas. Or no, I'm alone with my thoughts, in that case.
And it's weird because I do need the rest, but I also probably need connection. And it is really hard for me to reach for it when I'm in that place, especially, when depression is in the mix. I just want everyone to F off. But I do. I need connection when I'm there. And it's really, really hard to reach out.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I think that's what makes a lot of this so hard, right? And we've talked about burnout so often, and depression so often on here. And I know that we both experience both constantly. And I know a lot of our listeners do too. I think that's what makes it so hard. Is what you just described, of like, I really need this thing, but it feels so hard to reach for it. I think that becomes so challenging.
MEGAN NEFF: And this is where, back to community, having friends who get it. Like, I do feel like there's a small handful of people I feel like I could reach out to when it gets really heavy, you being one of them, and then a couple other people who they get the darkness, so I can share I'm in this darkness, and I won't worry them.
When I'm depressed and I just think being a human, one of the my least favorite experience is talk about killing aliveness is when people worry on me. I hate that feeling of people worrying about me, but people do worry about me a lot, understandably, because I'm [CROSSTALK 00:24:51]-
PATRICK CASALE: Because you worry them a lot. I get that. I experience that too, maybe not to the severity that you do. But I do experience that. I almost get annoyed by it. I almost get like, frustrated by it. And especially, if it comes from specific people in my life. Yeah, but does that go back to like, the hatred of being perceived in a lot of ways too? Yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:25:20]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, it feels weak you're perceiving me and you're worrying about me. So, I feel perceived in my weakness, which is like, that's not cool for me. And then, also, I want to comfort your worry so then I have to be okay to comfort your worry. So, there's a lot going on in that moment for me.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, totally understandable. I think a lot of people can relate to that. It's that vulnerability and being perceived as "weak, or vulnerable, or struggling." And we all, we all struggle as we know, right? And we all suffer [CROSSTALK 00:26:03]-
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and we're all struggling right now.
PATRICK CASALE: Is anyone out there, like, let us know, are you guys fucking thriving right now? Like, do you feel like you're, like, flourishing?
MEGAN NEFF: I think that's the title of your book, Patrick, thriving-
PATRICK CASALE: Are You Fucking Thriving Right Now? That's going to be my entrepreneurial book, and it's just going to be me pictures of me jumping off the bridge in New Zealand over and over and over again on repeat. There's going to be no text, there's going to be no helpful statements. It's just going to be that. And, yeah.
Yeah, it's hard, you know, it is hard. And it's amazing how this episode is fascinating to me, because we're talking creativity, but there's so much talk and linkage to connection, community, connection, community.
MEGAN NEFF: We keep coming back to that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It makes sense. Like, when I feel deeply alone, which I feel so often in my life, even when surrounded by people who love me, feel deeply alone, those are the times, right, where creativity doesn't feel like it's even accessible to me. It's not even a thought. I can't even, like, create comprehensive thought processes or sentences at times, let alone projects or do things that make me feel good. And I think that's why traveling has been a big part of my creativity process, because I feel less alone when I am out in the world, even if I am traveling by myself. And I've never been able to truly understand that for my well-being. But I know I can differentiate between that aloneness versus the aloneness of my typical human experience.
MEGAN NEFF: I just had a thought that formed. And I'm curious if this feels true. I think the way you relate to experiences is the way I relate to ideas.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. I get so excited about it, you know? And I can tell. It's like, damn, in these moments, I feel really charismatic when I'm feeling, like, deeply connected to experience, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And that's how I feel about ideas. And so, I go to that for aliveness.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, mine's a little bit easier to access from home. Sorry, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's a challenge, for sure, because it's a catch-22 going back to, like, being a double-edged sword, right? Of like, there's so much that comes with travel, there's so much fatigue, exhaustion, money. There's other stressors, obviously. But man, when I'm in those moments, I feel so good, and it does create a problem where that can lead to that ADHD side of like, "Got to book the next trip. Got to figure out the next like thing to do in order to, like, feel alive."
MEGAN NEFF: So, they sound like immersive experiences.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I've talked about this before, too, but the idea of quiet ego, I love this. You know, in pop psychology, it's often like, don't have too much ego, or have just enough ego. Don't have too low of self-esteem. But what is really protective, and I think when we really are connected to our humanness, and creativity, and aliveness, is actually when we have quiet ego, when we are so immersed in something that it is not about us. And that's what I hear when you describe experiences. That's what I hear when I'm immersed in ideas and ideation, that's what I experience.
And it's so nice to have some reprieve from my mind, which is a weird thing to say, because I'm talking about ideas, but it does. It feels like a reprieve from my ego, from my mind. I'm connected to something bigger. I'm immersed in something. And I feel like I catch that same energy when you talk about being immersed in experience.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%. It almost feels like torturous. You know, we've talked a lot about like, I don't know, I just feel like there's this tortured process in a way, of being a creative human. And I always think about like these tortured artists or creative types who have predated us for sure, and the world that they lived in, and how they struggled so mightily with the things that we talk about, probably so many of them being autistic, ADHD, ADHDers, and how that really did make them feel live that it was like the creative portion and when they could access that and immerse themselves into it. And that's how I feel so often. And it even allows me to be more connected to people that I meet, that I just feel like, wow, I actually get to be a part of the world. And that for me, feels really unique and special, but hard to access on a day-to-day basis, obviously.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, it's so different from pour baseline, right?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Of feeling outside of our experience, outside of the world. So, when we get pockets of, "I feel in the world. I feel connected to this moment. I feel connected to others. I feel connected to being unalive being on this planet." It is so powerful.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, how do we model that and sell it?
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, maybe that's like, would it be as valuable, you know, if we did always have it? And that's why like grief and desire, or grief and joy, like they walk so close together, because if that was our baseline, it would be water, and [CROSSTALK 00:31:49].
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it would be very diluted, right? And I think about when we had Jennifer on this podcast, when we did, like the Ask The Neurotypical episode, and it feels very much like her experience in life is just like, "I'm just flowing through it, and I make the best of these situations, and I'm okay in all these environments."
And I'm like, "Damn, that sounds magical." But then, I refrain to like exactly what you just said, of how would I be able to differentiate between the duality of life, of like grief and joy, and, you know, connection versus isolation and loneliness, and like really separate the two that intensely. I don't know if I could do it. I obviously have no idea.
MEGAN NEFF: And maybe that is why there's so many of us that are tortured artists. Is because of that very intense juxtaposition of I have moments of tasting intense aliveness, and then, it's gone. But I know how incredible that is, and I have grief that I know that exists and I can't access that right now.
PATRICK CASALE: Juxtaposition, great word for this. Yes, absolutely that. I think that's exactly it. But the problem is, there can be a dark side to that, too, of trying so hard to get it back.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's where a lot of us can go to, like, chemicals and other ways of trying to, like, get that experience back, that experience of aliveness back. Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Oof man, stuff that's hard.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So-
PATRICK CASALE: So, one thing.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, go ahead, I'm good.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean this get is really dark. So, if you're pivoting this…
PATRICK CASALE: No, go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: And I don't know. This is the kind of thing where I'm like, I'm going to ask permission for us to maybe edit this out. Yeah, I don't know if I'll ever go into more detail on the mood swings I've been noticing in myself. Maybe, we'll see. But I've had an interesting season of, in the last month, having a lot of aliveness, and like having happiness, which is not a normal thing for me, and also weird, given everything happening in the world. And there's context around that.
But I had a conversation with Luke, my spouse, like a week or two ago, and talking about this experience, and part of it is my mind's been running a little bit faster, and I felt like I've been seeing things so clearly, and I've been so connected to my aliveness. And I'm like, "There's so much I want to do." And now I actually feel like I have energy to do some of it, which usually like, fatigue has just been such a huge part of my life the last few years.
And I started crying to Luke, and I was like, I feel like I've come out of a… The metaphor or the image in my head is like, I've been in a coma, and I feel out of it, but I know it's coming back for me, and that's going to be so hard when it comes back, because, like, I've tasted this. And even with my energy dipping now, I'm like, "I don't want to go back. Like, I don't want to go back to that fatigue, and that lethargy, and that lifelessness."
And for people who do live with big energy and mood swings, I think that's part of the pain of it, of you tap into how good things can be, how alive things can be, and then you lose access to that.
PATRICK CASALE: Thank you for sharing that. That's really powerful and sounds really painful too, like there's a lot of grief there.
MEGAN NEFF: This whole being human thing, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Don't recommend it.
MEGAN NEFF: I do recommend, though. I just wish I could spend less of my life where it feels like often in a, yeah, in a coma state.
PATRICK CASALE: I think that a lot of people listening are going to relate to that. And I certainly do as well. And I do recommend it too, right? Like, without that pain, without that suffering, without that acknowledgement, maybe we'd not be sitting here today together. I don't know.
MEGAN NEFF: I don't think we would be. No, we connected in our pain and we connected in our aliveness and our creativity. And that's why we work. And that's like our friendship holds both of that, and I think that's part of what makes our friendship so special.
PATRICK CASALE: And it's really hard to find people, you know, who you don't have to over-explain things to. You know, when things are not skipping in sunshine.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. I don't want to minimize it at all, because we can sit in this moment as long as you want to. I just want to highlight what I was about to say, because it is like the stupidest shit in comparison.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, help us come back up from our intensity with your stupid shit.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, so if you're not watching, I'm just using my hands to really diverge on these pathways where we're both about to speak at the same time, and I was literally going to say, "So, one tip for creativity is that I have all of my special interests all around me. And I'm like looking at pictures of Ted lasso and Anthony Bourdain and the Lord of the Rings and animals that I really like." And it just sounds so stupid now.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that. I love that so much. That delights me. Thank you. Thank you for that. So, to summarize, three tips for creativity. This podcast is so weird because sometimes we are like, here's a few takeaways. And like, let's dive into existential human suffering. Oh, we are weird, and I love it. I'm here for it.
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:38:25] make this work. That's what makes this work, you know? And that's what people like about this podcast, is that it's not artificial, and fake, and not just like, "So here are five ways that you can be more creative in your home."
My Shit Tzu is looking at me like, "What is fucking happening right now?" He picks up on all the energies, all the energies. Get a neurodivergent dog y'all. It's a blast. The level of neuroticism, amazing, 10 out of 10.
No, I mean, I don't even know where to go right now. I think that was such a very powerful, relatable statement. And I just appreciate you being willing to share it, and be that vulnerable, because I know it's hard, and I can feel that pain in that statement too, and I can really relate to it, and I know, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: What comes up for you in your relation to it?
PATRICK CASALE: I just don't feel good very often. You know, whether it's in my body, in my brain, in my life. And those momentary blips are so special, but they're so painful, simultaneously, which further complicates the specialness of them, because there is that pain of I know this will not last forever, and I know what the alternative is.
And I think a lot of people don't get that, you know, like, just use a positive reframe, or, like, look at the bright side, or any positive psychology bullshit. Yeah, it's just so special. And it's so painful while being special, and it's weird to have that be, like, very simultaneously happening internally a lot of the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I feel like English is so limiting. I think other languages and I'll look for like, feedback from some of our listeners for this, because I feel like there's other languages where that experience you're describing is, there's a word for it, for the complex emotion of that. I mean, the closest we get in English is bittersweet, which it doesn't even like do it justice. But I think there are some words that capture that, like this is so much pleasure, and this will end. And so, there's grief in that.
I think it sounds weird, but I feel like that is one of my most favorite. It one of my most favorite human emotions. But it also hurts, like it hurts in my stomach, because there's longing in it.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, like, I enjoy the combo of pleasure and pain, and that emotional experience is a pleasure/pain, and so when I can kind of let myself be in it, it's a painful experience, but it's also one of my favorite, not favorite, it's not the right word. It's one of my most kind of connected, alive emotions when I get to have that experience. It's also, I think, where I'm the most creative in my writing and my thinking is that where I'm in something that is both longing, and pleasure, and grief, and pain.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I relate to that 100%. And I think that is also when I feel the most creative is in that vortex of like pleasure, pain, grief, aliveness, connectedness, all of the things happening simultaneously, being able to voice that, you know? Like, being able to put words to it, being able to express it. It feels cathartic in so many ways. Bittersweet doesn't do it justice, though.
MEGAN NEFF: No, it barely touches it. Like, this is so interesting. I had no idea what was going to open up when we started a conversation on creativity. And I feel like there's a lot kind of the messaging around ADHD is creativity, novelty, thinking outside the box, which is all true and good, but there's a deeper conversation here that also is true, which is when you're deeply connected to humanness, and pain, and grief, and you metabolize it, that can also connect us to our creativity, and that also is probably a fuel for many neurodivergent creatives. It is our pain. It is our suffering. It is the fact that even with that, we're saying, yeah, aliveness is also like, amazing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Couldn't say that better myself. Which means that we're going to say [CROSSTALK 00:43:31]-
MEGAN NEFF: Which means awkward goodbye. Wait, wait, wait, one last thought.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Creativity as metabolization. So, creativity, I think, helps us hold on to our humanity, which we need right now, and our humanness. But I also think creativity can help us metabolize all of the heaviness that we've just been talking about, and there's a lot to metabolize right now. So, I know for me, like the way I'm showing up in my writing and my essays has a different feel to it, and it's because I'm choosing to lean into creativity and metabolizing emotions.
And I think whether that is in… when I was in high school, it was like, I journaled every night while listening to Linkin Park, and that's how I, like, survived adolescence.
PATRICK CASALE: Love that.
MEGAN NEFF: So, creativity is also such a great way to metabolize. So, if folks are just so overwhelmed right now, understandably, like finding some creative outlet to metabolize even an inch of the emotions that we're going through, I think, is really important right now.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, I agree, absolutely. It's really well said. It could be journaling, it could be all sorts of different things that you could be doing that could help a little bit [INDISCERNIBLE 00:44:46].
MEGAN NEFF: I was just going to give you permission to social comment now.
PATRICK CASALE: One of the worst mistakes in my life, by the way, not going to this Linkin Park festival concert. They were opening in Darien Lake, New York. I took a job as a waiter at a restaurant that was opening in my college town and they were like, "You have to be here for opening weekend." And I had to miss that concert, one of my biggest regrets of my life.
MEGAN NEFF: I didn't know you were a Linkin Park fan.
PATRICK CASALE: Loved Linkin Park back in band.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my gosh.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't like the current iteration, but yeah, that, like, Meteora album was definitely something that I just listened to on repeat constantly.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh my gosh. No, maybe I-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:45:28] right?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Like, you could feel…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I literally, like, they had their CD because it was back when, like, CDs were a thing. And I listened to that CD on repeat when I was 16 seven. Like, probably 15, 16, 17, 18. Like, that was what I listened to.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, that was my jam. And I think you're a couple years older than me, so I was probably, 12, 13, at the time, just listening to it constantly, and it just made me feel, like, less angry. It made me feel more alive. It made me feel like, more connected.
Yeah, I think that's why I love Anthony Bourdain so much, speaking of creativity and immersing in experience, but I always have loved artists and people who have allowed themselves to just put it out there while also simultaneously acknowledging the pain and the suffering. And I think that's something I've always tried to do myself. And so, it's helped me feel more connected to the world.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, same, same. And music has been huge for me, connected with like, languishing souls through music, who also get it. Right now, I don't know if you've listened to NF.
I also get nervous. I, like, don't know who's controversial and who's not, because I'm really bad at staying on top of that. So, NF, he talks about having both OCD and ADHD, and, well, yes, but especially, the way he covers OCD, is like, he's naming something so true. So, he's a big one.
And Eminem, back in the day, who he has a song where he talks about Asperger's. I don't know that he's, like, publicly claimed it, but Eminem was my college years, and also connected to his rage. Yeah. Music, music is so powerful music,
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, music, just so powerful. Being able to, like, get in your car and turn it up as loud as you want and just drive without any purpose was always so helpful for me.
MEGAN NEFF: That's what I did in high school. I would put Linkin Park on. I had this like, 92 Toyota convertible, Celica. I loved it. I totaled it because ADHD, was in a bad car accident. Not bad, bad.
But anyways, I would just get on the highway and listen to Linkin Park, and just drive. And looking back, I think I also often did that when I was sensory, after I was sensory overloaded, or if I was really depressed and needed something like else.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, same didn't have that car, but same process.
MEGAN NEFF: It would have been interesting if our high school selves had met. I mean, yeah, I would have been like a senior when you were a sophomore or freshman.
PATRICK CASALE: How old are you now?
MEGAN NEFF: I just turned 41, just last month.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I turned 39 in August, so it's pretty close.
MEGAN NEFF: So, wait, what year did you graduate high school?
PATRICK CASALE: 2004.
MEGAN NEFF: And I graduated 2002. So, like, yeah, I would have been a senior, you would have been a sophomore. So, yeah, we wouldn't have been friends for that reason, but otherwise, we would have been friends.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, I didn't really have any friends very much, so it wouldn't have been much different. It was just people on my soccer team. So-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Would have been interesting for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, if we [CROSSTALK 00:49:14]-
PATRICK CASALE: And now I'm going to close us out of this episode, because we have another one to record, and we don't even know what we're going to talk about yet. So, stay tuned, because so many exciting things are about to take place. Episodes are out on Fridays, major platforms, YouTube, like, download, subscribe, share. And join our Substack too that we just started. And we'll see you next week.
