Episode 107 (Season 2): Curating Connection: Neurodivergent Communities Online and In-Person
May 22, 2025
Show Notes
Finding real connection and community as a neurodivergent person can be both beautiful and complicated. We often long for community that gets us, but knowing where to look or how to show up as ourselves can feel uncertain. Having spaces where we feel seen, supported, and not too much isn’t just affirming — it’s important for our well-being.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the complexities of finding, building, and sustaining community and connection as neurodivergent people. They candidly share personal experiences of seeking meaningful relationships, discuss the unique benefits and pitfalls of digital communities, explore the emotional nuances of online versus in-person connection, and offer practical ideas and resources for those looking to cultivate neurodivergent-positive spaces.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Explore practical ways to find neurodivergent community—whether you're looking for free or paid spaces, online or in-person—and hear ideas for navigating the relational dynamics that help support connection and belonging.
- Hear honest reflections from Patrick and Megan Anna as they share their own experiences with online engagement, friendship, demand avoidance, and the realities of community burnout. It's a conversation that feels real, relatable, and encouraging.
- Learn why community matters not just for connection, but for identity, advocacy, and healing. In a world that can be overwhelming and isolating, shared spaces offer protection, meaning, and a way to grow forward together.
If you’ve ever felt worn out but still longed for connection with a community that truly gets you, this episode offers both honest reflection and tangible support. We talk about what it means to find—or help create—spaces of real belonging.
Resources
- THE NOOK: neurodivergentinsights.com/membership
- Autastic: autastic.com/resources-for-bipoc-communities
- NEUROKINDNESS COMMUNITY Waitlist: docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSefQlLquFvaMB7ZY7dkSumrKhtP7WBGQLHAb0Rkfzzy_UN6Gg/viewform
- DIVERGENT CONVERSATIONS UNDERGROUND: divergentconversations.substack.com
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. And we are now on episode four of the tagline that I have already forgotten.
MEGAN NEFF: Worn Out and Worthy.
PATRICK CASALE: Worn Out and Worthy.
MEGAN NEFF: Not Your Neurotypical Wellness.
PATRICK CASALE: So, I've got the second part down, the Not Your Neurotypical Wellness, makes a lot of sense. And the Worn Out and Worthy wordplay I can't get in my head, but it's a good one. And we are in episode four, where we are going to talk community and connection, which I think is a really, really, really important topic.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were going to talk about it last episode, and then it pivoted to digital consumption and digital space. But these things are so, like, interconnected, because, yeah, a lot of community for autistic ADHD people happens online, understandably.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I mean, hell, without it you and I would not be sitting here right now. It's amazing, if I, like, really think about the last five years, you know, since the pandemic started, especially, of how many relationships I've built online. And I would guesstimate 80% of those people, maybe 85 I've never met in person.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, this can be like a sore spot for me when… and it typically never comes from autistic people of like, the distinction between, like, real community and internet community, or online community, or real friends. Like, I don't think many of us experience it that way.
Because, partly, like, if we think about real-life community, if I go to a real-life community event, I'm not going to be there in the sense that I'm going to be likely sensory overwhelmed. So, it's like my body's there, but like, I'm not there. But with digital community, it is different than embodied connection. And I don't want to, like, downplay that, but there's more of me that's able to be present in that way.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. Yeah, I think it feels a lot more accessible and a lot more supportive in a lot of ways. And like, if I go into community for anything in person, it really, like you've mentioned this many, many times, like the Goldilocks scenario, everything really has to be just right, or it to be enjoyable for me. And even the littlest thing can really derail that very quickly. So, I would agree 100%.
And you know, that's why I always am like, I want to be cautious whenever I recommend, like, spend less time online and spend less time on your phone, because it does feel like a catch-22 in a way, of like, spend less time, but that's where a lot of the community connection comes from. So, it's kind of like a double-edged sword, in a way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No. I love how you say that it is a double-edged sword, yeah. And I also do notice, and this is why Belize was so powerful, is like, so much my life is online, there is kind of this weird kind of vortexness to it, of it's so weird to have this really big online life, and then, I, like, literally rarely leave my house. And where there is part of me that's like, I do crave embodied connection. And also, that gets back to like autistic ADHD grief of, well, that's really hard for me, but there is some part of me that craves that. Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned last episode that you've been enjoying being on social media more often recently. And I, as a friend and an observer, I've noticed that from you. And also, just the realization of like, it sounds like you're enjoying it more because it's feeling more community-centered and anchored into, like, having community opposed to just like, yes, I'm sharing these resources, but this is obviously an extension of NDI and your business, And it almost feels like I have to share said resources every week, on these days more so like, now, like, you're really feeling more connected in certain aspects to some degree too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And partly, it sparked off with a conversation with Callie, the Black Spectrum Scholar on Instagram. It was so random. Oh, I know what it was. So, I think I saw a post… Oh, okay, I feel like, this is going to sound like I'm like, trying to like, sound like I'm a good person, but my brain just went to context, like, how did we get in a conversation.
I think I saw a post about, like, how a lot of black and brown creators were, like, getting so many questions and just kind of overwhelmed with questions in the labor they were doing last week or two weeks ago during the Victor Perez, and that was kind of the headline of the week, which is a terrible thing, right? Oh my gosh, my brain is diverging too much. It's terrible when like death becomes like the headline of the week.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Anyways, I reached out to them because I've appreciated their work in the past, and it's just like, "Is there anything that like I can do for you this week?" And I was also like, but there's also a demand in that. So, then then I went to their bio, and I was like, "Oh, they've got, like, a give me a coffee." So, I did that. And I was like, okay, I hope you like, do something helpful for yourself while you have all this extra labor going on.
And then, that led to a conversation that, like, I don't know how long we talked. It felt like an hour and I was so engrossed in it. And that's what I loved about early Instagram, was like, I'd get into these conversations with really interesting people, right?
And so, it was like, it was a person. It was literally, it was Callie. And also, just in hearing their perspective around creators and advocacy, also was like, "Oh yeah. Like, I really need to be thinking less from a demand avoidance and more about like, people have trust in me, and so how am I going to, like, show up in this moment? Anyways, that was a really long rabbit trail, but it was a person.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and that feels probably a lot better and more reciprocal in relationship opposed to people who want things from you or expect things from you.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It was like a genuine encounter and talking around ideas. And then, we did like a conversation together, which I recorded and made reels around. So, it's when it feels relational. But yeah, when it feels like more transactional, here's a resource, consume this, like, yeah, no.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It's interesting, because as my platform is growing, as do requests/demand messages. And I get so turned off by like, "Hey, will you share this for me? Hey, will you do this for me? Hey, will you show up to this thing?" And I'm like, "No, I don't want to do any of this."
Like, so the relational side gets lost a lot when you are in the content creation space, especially, when everything you post gets hundreds, if not thousands of likes and responses. I don't know how you've done this for this long? And yeah, I know you've talked about how that also led to burnout.
But yeah, I think right now, in this day and age, having community, and connection, and a place to anchor into, and a place to feel safe, and a place to feel seen, and heard, and affirmed is so damn important. And a place to send funny, dark-humor memes. And like all of the ways that you need to show up, and feel seen, and supported, so freaking important right now.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah, I want to, because this question comes up a lot, round like, okay, I hear neurodivergent community is important, and I talk about this all the time too, around like, I think this is one of the biggest things for supporting like neurodivergent identity, like integration, developing a positive identity, melting shame. But then, the question, like, how?
Like, I don't know we should run through like a bullet list, or if we want to talk about, like, our different experiences in different neurodivergent communities online. But I know, in the back of my head is a voice of like, I want to make sure people feel resourced when they listen to this, of like, "Okay, do you feel like I know how to like take a step toward community."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, whichever way your brain is currently putting that information out there, if it's list form, or if it's about experiences, I'll default to you. [CROSSTALK 00:12:29]-
MEGAN NEFF: List form feels a little bit like too disconnected, but I also know sometimes that's more actionable or helpful. Let's start with experiences. How does that feel?
PATRICK CASALE: And we can also, like, link some resources to the show notes too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, I'm even thinking now, I'm like, "Shoot, there's a few communities I know of, and the name's not on the tip of my tongue." And maybe we put together, like, a one-page resource that goes with this of like, here's some communities, because there's some free ones, there's some paid ones, there's a lot of different options.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. So, we can definitely do that, and we'll include that in the show notes as maybe just a link, and you can have access to that, because this episode won't be out for four or five weeks, anyway, from today.
So, yeah, experiences. I am such a reclusive person despite maybe outward presentation a lot of the time. So, my community, although I speak with a lot of people on a pretty consistent basis, or I message with a lot of people on a pretty consistent basis, I'm often at home, in my house, sitting around with my dog. And I don't really leave very often unless it's like the just right situation, like you mentioned before.
I've learned that the last couple of years, spending a lot of time in therapist's Facebook groups has not been great for me and my mental health. And I've really, like, disengaged, including, like, pausing my own therapist Facebook group that I moderated for several years. So, I've noticed, like, this lack of community and the desire to be a part of more connection and community in neurodivergent spaces, especially. So, I think my realization has come from that and also just acknowledging like I want to feel more plugged in in places that I feel more authentically me.
MEGAN NEFF: You want to feel plugged in in places you feel authentically me, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about that, that you did pause that Facebook group, and that-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, March, 24.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I know you thought about it for a long time before you did because… So, I started on Facebook groups too, like when I first discovered. And there's a few like women and genderqueer Facebook groups, especially, that was really helpful for me early on. And I don't know how much those groups have changed or not, but I do know that was a great place to like get resources, because it's a little more interactive than like Instagram in the sense you like to post a question and there's threads and responses, but that was something I eventually did move away from, too, in the sense of like there was something about the energy…
Okay, so I actually think this is interesting. I think it connects to the article that I recently wrote that we talked about a few episodes ago around identity development models for neurodivergent identity. I think some of those groups can be a lot of people in the immersion phase, which is when it's, I'm first learning this about myself, and I'm accessing autistic pride, and it's really powerful.
And this isn't a bad developmental phase to be in, right? We all need to do it, but some of the temptations of that identity phase would be things like reverse othering, like the big bad neurotypical. And that I noticed my nervous system, like, it responds really strongly to othering and energy. And I don't think all Facebook groups would be like that. I'm not saying that. I just noticed, for me, I took a step back away from those eventually as well.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. I think that's totally right. And that content that you created about the identity arc is really fascinating. And I found it to be, like, really spot on too, at least for my journey.
And I noticed that in a lot of Facebook groups, there's a lot of, like, kind of people joining in and like, almost, like, ganging up on people for saying the wrong thing, or using the wrong terminology, or whatever. And threads just get out of control sometimes. And it's just too much energy for me to, like, be a part of, because I think we all have to go through a learning and unlearning process. And feels a hell of a lot more supportive and safe when it's done from a place of, like, teaching. And coming alongside, opposed to, like, how dare you say, you know, terminology, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: ASD, on the spectrum, yeah. So, I thought a lot about the culture building when I built The Nook, which is about a year and a half old now. And the first video I made, and it's part of, like, the welcome sequence is, first of all, I actually say we are in a safe space. We're a brave space. And I talk about the importance of leaning into curiosity and kind of the similar idea of, like, having compassion, like for wherever someone's at in their development, in learning.
So, if someone's coming in saying ASD or on the spectrum, like, not jumping to like, "You're doing something wrong." Or, "This means some character-based thing about you, like you're ableist." But like, can you have compassion for where they're at in their development.
And I love, I mean, and this is not like… Now, it sounds in addition to, like, steadily promoting Jane in our conversations, now it sounds like I'm trying to promote The Nook. I'm not. But like, I love the culture we've built there, because there are people that come in and use that language. And I think there's just understanding of this is someone who maybe learned about their autism, like a month ago, and I want it to be like a gentle landing place for people. And I also say, like, if you're someone for whom being around that language is going to be really activating, like, again, this might not be the best community for you.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. Well, let's actually talk about what you've created from the perspective of community creation, because I think it's important in terms of a conversation about community and connection. Like, there's a reason that you created an online community, there's a reason-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: …that you've cultivated it the way that you have. So, I think those things are important in terms of the greater scheme of this conversation.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, I actually love talking about this stuff. It just it feels weird because then it's like, it feels like I'm, like, trying to promote The Nook. But I [CROSSTALK 00:19:31]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:19:31]-
MEGAN NEFF: …weird, I have some weird stuff around promotion.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, but let's pause [CROSSTALK 00:19:35]-
MEGAN NEFF: But like this is… okay.
PATRICK CASALE: Don't you have, like, an extensive waitlist and process of how to apply and how to get into this [CROSSTALK 00:19:43].
MEGAN NEFF: Not anymore. I did when I was opening, and like, because I want to keep the community culture what it is like we do have a max number of new seats we open every month, but like we're not hitting that max regularly enough. We did when we first opened, because that is part of it, is I want to keep the community culture. So, I have an eye on, like, I don't want, like, 100 new people to enter in one month. That's going to have a big shift on culture.
So, community culture was huge for me. And I think it does go back to… I actually really love nerding out on this stuff. I love community building. And like, I've been reading a lot of books on belonging this year.
So, okay. It actually goes back to my burnout. I burnt out on social media, and I was just making resources. But I was like, "I feel alone in this. I feel like…" The primary interaction I was getting with the neurodivergent community was exactly what you were describing, which is like, "Hey, can you post this thing? Hey, can you help me here? Hey, like you're doing this thing wrong."
And so, I was getting grumpy. Like, I was getting grumpy toward the community that I love. And I was like, I need to figure out how to, like, heal my relationship to the community and have something that feels more connected, and embodied, and relational, and complex, and nuanced. And I was struggling to access that on social media, right?
So, part of me staying sustainable in a space was like, I need, like, a relational field where I can go deeper with people, and where we can have more complex conversations. So, yeah, that's when I built The Nook. I already had a resource membership where people could get all the resources on like a monthly subscription.
So, then I really like Circle. That's platform I use. It's not social media, but it has a similar build, and that there's forums. And then, there's just a lot you can do with it. And so, built it on Circle. It's actually, like, I'm proud, not of me, but I'm proud of The Nook. It's one of the top-performing communities on Circle, which speaks to how, like-
PATRICK CASALE: Wow.
MEGAN NEFF: …like active people are as part of the analytics they use to measure that. And then, yeah, I thought a lot about culture, and how do we build a space that is supportive, and nuanced, and a lot of it's been trial and error as things have come up. And there is a connection too, of like, okay, having some live events, and then forum-based, because it's also thinking through, I think with neurodivergent community we're going to have different ways of accessing information. Some people will do really well with text. Some people won't. So, having kind of live sessions is going to be more impactful.
So, there's a lot. I'm not doing it perfectly. When we think about building neuro-inclusive spaces, there's so much to consider. And I've certainly, like, stepped in it. I've had my errors. I'm still learning. Stephanie, we call her The Nook keeper. She works like, full-time for NDI now, and so that's been also helpful just to have a person whose like job is dedicated to thinking through these things.
So, I don't know that was a really long ramble. But there's a lot of things I think about when I think about community and like, how do we create spaces of belonging?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. And I think that speaks volumes, you know, about what you've created and what you're trying to create. And we need more spaces like that, regardless of, you know, if it's your space or other spaces. And I think people just need those landing spots,, and some guidance, and some safety, and that protective factor too. And I know you feel really protective of the participants and the culture. And I think that speaks that speaks volumes about what you've created. And I imagine people get so much out of that environment too. You know, like, I imagine that it's really something that people really look forward to participating in and being a part of.
MEGAN NEFF: I think many do. I think it ebbs and flows. I think there'd be some people who probably sign up and they don't… Like, it's like, "Oh, this is actually, like, hard to engage in." And then, the people who, like, lean in, yeah, they get a lot out of it. And they say that. And like, they are able to say, like, "I'm so thankful for this community" when hard things happen.
But I mean, that's the thing with community too, is partly, it's how much we invest of ourselves. So, it's having people that create the containers for community. And then, it's, as we come into community, how much we invest as well, is it big?
PATRICK CASALE: 100%.
MEGAN NEFF: And that's scary for a lot of us, because RSD, and like having bad past relational experiences, especially, with community.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. You know, the retreats that I host are not the same, obviously, as an online community, but I've experienced a lot of that too, where there's a lot of intentionality, and curating, and wanting it to be a certain way, but certain people who come to my events with the best of intentions don't participate for whatever reason. And then, I get bad reviews of like, "Hey, you know, this wasn't for me, and I didn't feel included." And that's always hard to take.
But the reason I bring that up is because during my event you said to me that you think I'm a community connector. And I think that too. And that's why I'm thinking about community right now, about how I show up in community, and how I think that a strength of mine is connecting people in community.
One thing that I've mentioned to you off air is like, I often feel excluded from connection and community for whatever reason. And I think it's fascinating to me to be like, "Man, I am a really good community connector." And I'm not connected in many communities. And some of that is certainly me. Like, that's just me being like, I don't want to at times, but there's so much of me that also like feels like excluded a lot of the time. And I think that is a weird mental space to be in sometimes.
MEGAN NEFF: It is a weird tension that you hold. And I don't think you're alone in that, in the sense that I think one adaptation to, like, you know, reciprocity and groups being hard for us, is we can become really good frame builders of like, I can host this conversation, I can host this community, I can be the architect behind it, and that's how I, like, feel safety and structure. But then, being in it like that, there's a different vulnerability, there's a different, almost like, I don't want to say skill set, but kind of like the fluidity of getting into the conversation.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And we talked a little bit before we started recording today about like, having guests on the future and some struggles that we have both had and experienced. But the fluidity is hard for me. I think that's one of the hardest pieces of having guests on with three people is like the fluidity, knowing where to start, knowing when to speak, that whole, like, social dynamic dance that we often do. And oftentimes, just defaulting to just like zoning out, dissociating, and like, not really participating much.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, same. I mean, we, both of us, like, it'd be interesting if there's like a little energy bar. Like, energy expenditure when we record and it's just us versus guests. Like, it'd be a big difference.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, totally. So, if we take that on that small scale and put it into like, a community perspective, yeah, it's quite hard for me in those situations. Like, even when I go out socially with like groups of friends, of like, you know, a couple of people, I find myself in that space where I'm like, I know all these people really well. I would consider them like my good, close friends. And I also really struggle to feel like inserted or a part of even despite, like, existing physically there, it's really hard for me to access that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I hard relate to that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I think that's what's prevented me. People have asked me, "Have you ever gone on a retreat despite hosting them?" I'm like, "No." And I don't know if I really want to, because I do have that that fear. And it's not just from the social piece of like fearfulness. It's really energetically and physiologically where I just don't feel comfortable having to participate, but I feel a lot more comfortable, as you mentioned, like, as the architect or facilitator.
MEGAN NEFF: What is your experience? Because I'm trying to, like, I am curious, and this is such a classic, especially, autistic thing, where groups are hard because of processing. What is it like for you in digital space where it's async? So, there's, like, synchronous communication, which is what we're doing right now, it's live time, or like a Zoom meeting would be synchronous. And then, there's async where it's like, someone leaves a comment, someone comes back and responds later. How do you do with, like, async group, digital communication, conversation.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. If I'm thinking about, like, the Facebook group that I used to moderate, I was really engaged in it at first, and I felt really connected to it at first. And then, I think as my platform grew, I burnt myself out by being a part of. And I started to resent, and become frustrated, and irritated, similarly to what you're kind of describing in some capacity, as your platform also grew.
But like, I started to get frustrated and irritated with the people who were essentially paying my bills right? Like, I was like, "Oh, I'm burnt out." Like, if I'm feeling this way about people who are supporting me, then this is a big sign of burnout.
But at first, like, I felt really energized by it, and I felt really enjoyed being a part of these conversations and discussions to the point then where it was just like, "Oh, this feels like cumbersome, or burdensome, or irritating, and heavy. And I don't feel like dealing with this anymore." So, in those moments, I've always been kind of in a seesaw in a way. A seesaw, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and I think partly, and like, hopefully, this is different for people who are experiencing the community where, hopefully, there's more permission to be like, I can be in and out. I can ebb and flow. Whereas, if you're the architect of the community, there's some, like, expectation to, like, be in more consistently. And so, maybe part of it is like bumping into, like, a true capacity limit of, yeah, when the community is this size.
So, I think that is actually part of it. And size becomes a part of the experience of community. And that there are things that are easier to embody in a smaller scale that become a lot harder. And that's why like Facebook groups, first of all, like, I love them in the sense that that's the first access point to so many autistic people, and so that's fulfilling a very important need, and many of them are quite big. And that there is just limited in what we can do when a community gets a certain size. And so, yeah, that like that is part of thinking about community architecture is the size of the thing.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally. Yeah. Because if I could think back when I started All Things Private Practice in 2020-ish, I probably had like 100, 200 members in it, right? At first. And a lot of them were people I knew in one way or another. So, a lot of the conversation was like, it's very engaging with people that you kind of had relationships with. As it grows to 15,000, the people you know become less and less, the people who are responding consistently become fewer and fewer. And then, things take over your new cycle.
MEGAN NEFF: And then, there's also when it's bigger, there's more, this is one of those words I can't say, like, you didn't anonymity.
PATRICK CASALE: Anonymity.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, where you feel like, if you're in a group of 15,000, there's less attachment to the group and a more sense of, like, I think, anonymous, whereas, so in a smaller community. So, like The Nook, in the community portion, we're about 300 right now. And I don't think I ever want to go beyond 500. I'm not going to hold a strong line on that, but that's kind of the sense I have, where it's you feel more attachment to the community.
First of all, there is… And as like capitalistic as it sounds, there is something psychologically about when you invest in community, whether it's through payment or through another means, like you're more invested in the community culture.
PATRICK CASALE: Fir sure.
MEGAN NEFF: But because it's smaller, it's also, like, you can't just, like, post something and then not think about, like, the relational impact that might have [CROSSTALK 00:33:18]-
PATRICK CASALE: Right, totally.
MEGAN NEFF: …culture. Like, so, yeah, size and then culture also influence [CROSSTALK 00:33:35]-
PATRICK CASALE: Totally, totally. And it's a reason I've seen a lot of people, and this is a point of contention for a lot of people take free Facebook groups offline to be like, "Okay, let's have more curation and intention setting." Because when it's a free Facebook group and anyone can join through, like, three membership questions, you never know what's going to happen. And it's a lot harder to create, and maintain culture, and evolve culture. And it's very easy for culture to be fractured. So, that's been on my mind.
Switching gears, a little bit, still thinking about community connection. One thing for me that we've talked about on here, and for a lot of autistic people who are listening, probably, can relate to, is parallel play being a big source of community connection. For me, playing soccer all my life was community connection. But also, parallel play. And I didn't have to show up any sort of way with any social expectation, you know? And there might be 90-minute games that I've played in my life where I've said three words, but you're still in community connection with your team, and still having that, like, symbiotic relationship of that energetic, like, experience.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that you brought that up. I didn't do sports for as long as you did, but I did sports growing up. And that was, I think, so protective for me, because that was a social connection. And I'd see the basketball team, like, they'd get deeper into the friendships than I ever would, but I felt connected to something bigger than me. And I felt a part of it. And it was parallel play. And yes, sports can be such a… Yeah, because that is part of communities, is it gives us a sense of we're connected to something bigger than us. And then, the parallel play piece is huge.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, totally. And you were mentioning meaning-making yesterday. Like, there's meaning-making when you're a part of something and you're all working towards something, whether or not you take it very seriously, like when my wife said, "Let's play intramural kickball." And then, she volunteered to not play every time we had too many women. And I'm the one who's like, "We need to freaking win."
So, like, there is meaning-making, though, like, when you're all committed to a thing. And for me, like growing up playing at a higher level in competitive, like, soccer growing up, there was always meaning-making, of like, what kind of season is this going to be? Are we going to, like, move towards playoffs and championships? And, like, all working together towards that goal.
And there's also, like grief in in experience too, but you are doing it as a community, and you're doing it as a team. And for me, that always felt like the safest place to just be myself was in those experiences.
MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. And that feels so generative to me. Like, I'm noticing energy in my body increase as soon as you talked about, like, meaning-making, and moving towards something. And I think back to everything we've been talking about in this season, that's what we need right now as a community is like communities for connection, yes, but also, I think so many of us have all of this pent-up energy around what's happening of like, community where it's like we are pushing the needle forward on goodness in the world, and to feel like we're part of something that's contributing. There's so much shit in the world right now, and it's like to be a part of something that's contributing to goodness. Like, I know that's what I need in my life, like that's what I'm trying to prioritize. I think that's what so many people need in their lives right now.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no. 100%. I agree wholeheartedly. Like, we are pushing the needle forward for goodness. And I think that we want to feel invested in that stuff as humans, for the most part. I can't even generalize anymore because of certain shit that's happening in the world. But I feel like for the most part, most people want that in some capacity, form, or fashion. And to feel a part of. Like, to feel a part of a movement, to feel a part of collective, to feel a part of like we're in this together.
And I think that's also advocacy in its truest form, right? Is like grassroots advocacy, being a part of the community, the connection. Can talk about like community from the perspective of someone who lived through Hurricane Helene/devastation/destruction. Like, community was born here in western North Carolina out of something really terrible, out of a catastrophic event that has negatively impacted the community, has also grown the community.
So, it's really fascinating how that's taken place. You know, like, I kind of mentioned here at one point in time, people on my street, regardless of who they are, what they believe in, where they stand on things, during that time in history, in this moment in Appalachia, we're checking on each other, we're lending resources to one another, we're sharing ideas, we're sharing information, we're supporting, checking in on like the most vulnerable of the people who live in this section of my town. And for me, that was just really, although, there was a lot of sadness and grief, it's also really beautiful to watch and witness, experience as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, right, that idea of like, those life moments that break us open, like those can be shattering moments. They can also be some of the most generative moments. And they can be both.
I had a like idea baby, when you were talking of like, so we talk about like PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. And then, there's also literature around post-traumatic growth, and how sometimes after a trauma is when those, like, life moments where it takes us on a different trajectory. I feel like what you're describing in Asheville is like collective post-traumatic growth. And we are in a trauma right now, in an autistic community, and different traumas. And I think that's part of the question is, how do we lean into, like, post-traumatic growth as a community?
And this is where, like, I know I mentioned, Adrienne Maree Brown's work a few episodes ago, Emergent Strategy. And she talks about transformation justice so beautifully. This is where I think black and brown advocacy has often been more connected to humanity. And like, how do we learn from some of those movements, and how we move through this in the autistic space, toward post traumatic growth, towards something new, towards something generative, toward connection, toward community.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. One part, you know, that I've noticed too, is like post-RFK commentary, seeing a lot of the bigger autism societies and organizations that sometimes get a really bad rap, and sometimes for good reason, kind of standing together to, like, make cohesive statements.
And I was like, oh, sometimes, like, the true horrors of the world really do create cohesion in terms of, like, taking a stand on certain things. So, it's really fascinating how community can be born out of some of this scarier stuff that we experience as human beings.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Well, also, I think it puts things in perspective of like, okay, we're fighting over puzzle pieces, like, I think. And this actually reminds me of Chris's episode that we had. I love how she put some of this, like, political stuff into a psychoanalytic frame of there is something about when we have, like, kind of, one evil force that we're like, or a scapegoat that we're all channeling around. There's something uniting about that like, so if the RFK and like, everything that's happening there, it's bringing light to the fact of like, we can put away our differences to address this, like, much bigger, fatter, scarier thing. So, there's something about perspective, even. And I'm not saying that that dynamics always a good dynamic, but it's one that tends to happen. There can be unity around a force that is negative.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, like the Saurons of the world, as I look around all my Lord of the Rings stuff in my office, or yeah, any sort of figure or messaging that feels like dark, evil, harmful, yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:42:01]-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I've referenced this so many times. I should put this conversation in our show notes, but Callie, again, Black Spectrum Scholar, talked about cognitive inflexibility and how sometimes, like, surface level, it's easy to talk about autistic community. Also, I'm noticing we're talking about autism more than… Well, oh yeah, everything that's happening in the world. First, we're talking about autism world more [CROSSTALK 00:42:29]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, but like we say that so often on this podcast, and we [CROSSTALK 00:42:31]-
MEGAN NEFF: Right.
PATRICK CASALE: …talking about autism more than anything.
MEGAN NEFF: I know, sorry ADHD, we love you too. Actually, no, I sometimes hate you, but I'm working to love you more. And I'm talking to my ADHD.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, cognitive inflexibility. So, it's really tempting to come into autistic culture and spaces and be like, "Oh my gosh, I found my people. And like, we all get along." And it's like, no actually, cognitive inflexibility is a thing. And so, we can fracture easily. And I think when we do, there can be more injury around that, because it's like [CROSSTALK 00:43:00]-
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: …on my people, but now we're fracturing. So, fractures do happen in our community, and it hurts when it does.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it can also lead to a narrative of, "See, this is why I can never find my people."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It can lead to those types of wounds too, and narratives as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Like, I thought I found my people. I thought I found my tribe. And here I'm hurt again, which goes back to rupture and repair. Of you are in relationship long enough, there will be rupture.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I mean, been married 11 years. I'm trying to think of how many ruptures there have been in that 11-year period. But the desire to repair is important too in community. I think if you're, you know, acknowledging that there will, in fact, be rupture, then there has to somehow be desire to repair, provided that you both mutually want to have repair, not if it's egregious, like, that's a different story.
But yeah, so I think that's important too, and it's interesting how I'm talking in a different tone, and my Shih Tzu just picked up his head to look at me like, "You okay?"
It's interesting how sometimes certain things bring us together, certain conversations start to create unit in some senses. And I think we're going to see that more and more. Like, those of us in this country and part of the world who are more vulnerable, you're going to see more unity around. You're going to see more protectiveness around. But you're also going to see more injury, and more pain, and suffering, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, the porcupines, I shared this in an essay, and this, to me, is just like been a powerful metaphor for my own, like, struggles with connection, and intimacy, and community, but I also think could be a metaphor for the autistic community in this moment.
So, there's this metaphor, the porcupine dilemma. And it's the idea that, like, porcupines at night, what they'll do is they'll, like, come close together for warmth when it's, like, cold at night, then they'll start to poke each other, and that hurts. So, then they have to separate. And how this is kind of the human condition, is this dance of, I need warmth. "Oh, wait, that spike hurts, I need distance."
And I think, especially, when you're autistic, like, just from a embodied, there's like, "Oh, that's a sensory spike." But then, there's also just like, "Ooh, that's a relational spike." And so, we're often doing that dance of, like, coming together and then distance. And there's rupture and repair as part of that dance.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure, it's well said. Actually, I like that imagery. I always look so cute at the zoo or preserves, but yeah, hedgehogs too, also my jam. But I also feel like those are the types of animals that will stab the shit out of you. Yeah. So…
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, I can tell your brain is going to wrap up. And I do feel like we've been talking a while.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think-
MEGAN NEFF: Did I read that right?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you did. You did.
MEGAN NEFF: There was a couple communities I wanted to highlight, partly, because… So, yeah, I've mentioned The Nook. And there's other, I don't actually know them, but I'm sure there's other, like, autistic ADHD communities out there. But there's two that I know of that are free. And I wanted to mention that because I know, like, paid community is not accessible to everyone.
So as far as I know, Autastic, and it's been a few years since I connected with their creator, but as far as I know, I believe this is a free community. There's like things that you could pay into more. And it's got a big BIPOC focus. And so, that's one community out there that I wanted to highlight.
And then, the other one which I'm going to be involved with, and it sounds like Divergent Conversations might be involved with, that I'm really excited about, is the Neuro Kindness community. My friend Nick, and then, several folks that he's partnering with that he met, I think through Substack is starting this. And it's also going to be on Circle, so similar platform to The Nook. And the whole vision of this is, it's slightly different than a nonprofit. It's like all the profits that are made go back into the community, and they're going to have kind of what they're calling storytellers, so people who can share wisdom that are first invited into the community, who can be resources for the community, and then members are invited.
But the whole idea is like, can we build something that's different than the capitalistic world we're seeing where you come in to community. We take care of each other. It's free. But there is kind of this community energy around it.
And I think, yeah, we've talked about maybe we'll be involved in kind of supporting that project in some way. But that to me, like when I met Nick, and then heard about this community. I was like, this is transformational justice. This is what we want. Like, I want to be seen more of. And that is opening this summer, so probably around the time that this releases. And again, I think we will have a PDF with some of these resources.
But I just want people to know who are maybe looking for something smaller than the Facebook groups, but who like well, I can't access paid community right now that there are some options out there as well.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, that's a great resource.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, do you have any itchy thoughts?
PATRICK CASALE: Nope, I've gone back to my brain just existing and, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Gone back to your brain just existing. Yeah, we've been recording for long/
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:49:00].
MEGAN NEFF: That's where you're at. Like, we've been on this call since for an hour and 50 minutes. This is the end of our second recording. I think we're hitting our like, okay, this is our capacity point. So, I'll do the like…
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, do it.
MEGAN NEFF: So, if you like us. It's always so personal with me. It's like, if you like us. So, if you are a fan of our work, one way that you can show us your support is by liking and subscribing, and downloading, and doing all that nice things. And we're on a few platforms like Instagram, and YouTube, and wherever podcasts [CROSSTALK 00:49:40]-
PATRICK CASALE: top notch, top notch. Or what is the series called again? I think it was…
MEGAN NEFF: Worth…
PATRICK CASALE: Worn Out and Worthy. Not Your Typical Wellness. I keep thinking it's Worn Out and Worthless. That's what reminds [INDISCERNIBLE 00:49:58]-
MEGAN NEFF: Patrick, that's your depressed mind talking.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:50:03].
MEGAN NEFF: It's saying you're depressed and you're aware of it. So, you're not worn out and worth bliss, as much as your depressed mind might tell you that. You're worn out and worthy. And sometimes you need community to help remind you of the fact you're worthy.
PATRICK CASALE: True story.
MEGAN NEFF: And sometimes you need a really awkward podcast host to end things, to make you laugh. Oh, also, I think we have a Substack now. So, there's also the Substack.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that too. So, if you have not had enough Patrick and Megan Anna in your life, like, you're weird if that's your experience of this conversation. We feel like weird.
PATRICK CASALE: That's what we want. It's that weirdness.
MEGAN NEFF: We want weirdness.
PATRICK CASALE: And we'll have all this in the show notes, so that if you are listening and you're just like either laughing with us or you are laughing at us, you have access to all of those resources too.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, bye.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, bye.
