Episode 106 (Season 2): Not Your Neurotypical Wellness: Connection, Consumption, and Self-Care
May 15, 2025
Show Notes
Navigating constant news cycles and the pressure to engage with digital content that often changes by the minute and is expressed with different narratives can be uniquely challenging for neurodivergent individuals. Finding authentic ways to support your mental health, honor limited energy reserves, and cultivate meaningful community has never been more crucial.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the realities of digital overwhelm, mindful media consumption, and the importance of authentic connection in turbulent times. They share lived experiences of navigating privilege, public visibility, community trauma, and creative coping strategies—from intentional content curation to using humor as resistance.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Learn practical tools for mindful digital consumption, including how to notice your nervous system’s responses to online content, create healthy boundaries with technology, and cultivate empowering rather than overwhelming media habits.
- Hear honest discussions about privilege, vulnerability, and advocacy in the neurodivergent community—offering validation, solidarity, and ideas for slow, metabolized advocacy rather than reactive posting.
- Discover the power of laughter, joy, and authenticity as essential components of neurodivergent wellness, with examples of how embracing dark humor and playful connection can be a form of resistance and healing.
If you’re feeling the weight of current events and content consumption overload, this episode offers tangible ways to care for your nervous system, maintain boundaries, and honor your unique needs and limits.
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Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations in a series that we are all-
MEGAN NEFF: Patrick, are you trying to put our listeners to sleep.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm trying to think of what we just named the series. And my brain can't access it already. And we just talked about it like 30 seconds ago.
MEGAN NEFF: I know. So, it's, oh, shoot now I left my brain. So, it is [INDISCERNIBLE 00:03:37].
PATRICK CASALE: I literally just typed it out, too.
MEGAN NEFF: You literally just typed it out. And, oh my gosh, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:03:44]-
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, it is called-
MEGAN NEFF: Actually [CROSSTALK 00:03:46]-
PATRICK CASALE: …Worn Out and Worthy. #NotYourNeurotypicalWellness.
MEGAN NEFF: There we go.
PATRICK CASALE: See, there it is.
MEGAN NEFF: You got it, you got it.
PATRICK CASALE: And that's a great series title.
MEGAN NEFF: It is. It's like it addresses the issues we were having with the word wellness that came up in yesterday's conversation, which would be last week's podcast. Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I think when we're conceptualizing what we envision as wellness from a very different lens, we were thinking about community and connection. And how vital those things are to our well-being and our day-to-day. And how important they are right now.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I feel that so deeply. I was even noticing, I don't know if you've noticed, but like, I've been on Instagram more.
PATRICK CASALE: You have.
MEGAN NEFF: And I like, like it, which is really interesting, because I've had so much demand avoidance around social media. I've had so much resistance to it. But I'm finding myself, first of all, really enjoying some connections that I'm building there. But also, just being a part of the conversation. Feeling connected to others right now. So, yeah, like, there's a lot.
So, this will drop in like three or four weeks. We're in end of April right now where So, just to set the stage, the like Autism Database Inventory thing just dropped, and it's just been like a shit show of two weeks of Victor Perez was killed by police. There was RFK statements. There was like fracturing in our community in response to that. Like, so it's a hot moment right now in our community.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, a really hot moment. And it feels like every day kind of creates more of that. And I know that I think community and connection are so vital, and how important it is during these types of time periods, because we're not in just like a moment. This is going to be a time period. Like, this is going to be prolonged. This is not something that will be shifting, or changing next week, or next month. Like this is, unfortunately, a long-haul situation. And I think right now we need community, and connection, and to feel like we are a part of something more than ever.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And we need to come together in a way that is healing and not like furthering the wounds.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, because it's really easy right now when people feel attacked, defensive, scared, rage filled, all justifiable, anxious, protective for there to be wounding, especially, when our defenses are up. You mentioned this in a previous episode, not just attachment wounds, like actual wounds, right? Like-
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. These are, like, actual wounds, community-based wounds, ancestral trauma that's showing up and surfacing. Yeah, it's heavy. And I just want to name this too. Like, some of you have reached out, I shared this with Megan Anna earlier this morning, just like asking if we are okay, and checking on our well-being.
MEGAN NEFF: My gosh.
PATRICK CASALE: And one, that means the world to us.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It's an interesting paradox. I don't know if that's the right word for what I'm about to say, but you and I have talked about this on air and off air about like, okay, if we're low support needs, and we know that a lot of this information is really targeting moderate and high support needs autistic people, especially trans, BIPOC, etc., we are a little more protected. But then, having a following and being a public facing figure, there is some sort of target as well, and that, it's a weird duality.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't know if I said that right, but I used that word a lot yesterday, and it's still in my mind.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think duality is the right word. It is a weird duality, and it's also partly, so I had posted this back in 2021 a story about my interaction with law enforcement and how it was so autistic. Like, it was because of my autistic and probably ADHD misses that got me in that situation. And it's my like, whiteness that protected me.
And anyways, I end the post with talking about, like, I don't think this is actually a term that will ever take off, nor should it, but like, high privileging autism. And that, like, I have so many privileged identities that wrap around my autism, that protect me. And how that is partly why, and you do too.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: That is partly why we can be public, and visible, and do the work we're doing, because we are more protected. But then, in being visible in the work, there's then risk. And then, I don't think we want to get into it in detail, because we've talked about it, but then we both have family members that are more vulnerable or have more vulnerable identities. And so, like, yeah, that was also part of our pause of like, and my stuff was like, I don't know if I want to be perceived at all in this moment.
And then, I do want to pivot to community. But like, how is the being perceived as we think about re-releasing or not re-releasing, releasing season two. And I know you've been really hyper vigilante and anxious. Like, how are you feeling about that?
PATRICK CASALE: It's a good question. And I want to, like, immediately respond, because I wanted to sit with it for a second, see what's happening in my body when I think about it. Very therapeutic [CROSSTALK 00:09:54]-
MEGAN NEFF: I appreciate. No, I appreciate that we often need a moment.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I don't know. It's so hard for me because you and I have talked offline about privilege, and identity, and experiences that I experience as like guilt of privilege a lot of the time, which I need to work through, obviously, continuously. But there are some identities that I do hold that offline, that people wouldn't know unless I told them, and I'm not going to share them right now publicly for certain reasons.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:10:34].
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I'm having major, like, ancestral trauma reaction to everything happening in our country, and that's a bit scary for me. And then, in addition to, I'm trying to think of how to word this in order to protect my family members who also hold more marginalized identity than I do. And it's scary, I don't know, it's scary. Like, I feel like less fear for putting this into the world. And I also feel an immense amount of fear. It's so bizarre because on the outer layers, right? If we looked at like a wheel of privilege, to some degree, it's like, "Oh, a cishet white man." And if you didn't talk openly about being autistic, ADHD, and some other stuff nobody would ever fucking know.
And that's real. I think it's also scary when you're following and your reputation grows. And it grows and it grows, because the reality is like your name is now in front of more people, right? So, that is scary. I've talked to you about that with, like, my book deal, scary.
And then, protecting certain, like, members of family, also horrifying, because they can be collateral damage, you know? And I think that is a bit daunting as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, my stomach just dropped, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Maybe you need to come to Asheville and hit the rage room with me. Just saying. It's funny how we were going to talk about community and connection, and then, the follow up episode was going to be on…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, on consumption. But it feels like we're talking about consumption. Should we flip it?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, we're going to flip it in a bit.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: We're going to record both today anyway, so…
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and I feel like the conversations will weave, because yeah, we're talking about community connection, but then, consumption, and how to do that in a way that's thoughtful, and intentional, and protective.
And I think part of supportive consumption is this community thing of like, does it feel like we're in isolation, doom scrolling, and feeling like we're getting baked into more withdrawal, more isolation, more helplessness. Or are we consuming in a way we're tapped into connection, belonging, movement, agency. Like, people that see me, and where it's like, "Okay, we've got this." Or like, maybe not, "We've got this." But like, there are-
PATRICK CASALE: We're in this together.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we're in this together, and there's things we can do to [INDISCERNIBLE 00:13:21]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think for me, over the last couple months, I have shifted gears mentally from like being baked into it, doom scrolling a lot, feeling quite helpless and powerless in a lot of ways, maybe texting you earlier in the morning than you would prefer to start your day off with that type of content. And I have kind of shifted into like, okay, how can we tap into supportive content, cultivated content, curated content, advocacy movement, actual tangible steps of things that we can feel like we're doing because without those tangible steps, it is really easy to default your mindset into complete and utter despair, even if these are little things that we can do on a daily or weekly basis.
MEGAN NEFF: Totally, totally or to like, I think a lot about, like, reaction versus response. I think this is kind of interesting context now. You and I actually recorded an episode on this topic before, like, a month or two ago. And then, I asked, can we not release that? Because, like, I was so dissociated during. It felt to me like I was sending out half metabolized ideas into the world. And I was like, there's already so much reactivity, and like activation that I didn't want to be putting that into the world.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: But so, I think a lot about like reaction versus response, and how do we get out of like a reactive energy when that's what's taken over our bodies. And, again, I think, that's where community helps. It helps us move from reaction to something different.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can be like prisoners of the moment a lot. You know, when we are so active in social media or on news cycles to like absorb, and metabolize something, and immediately emotionally react to it, publicly, out of outrage, fear, despair, anger, anxiety, etc.
And sometimes, that can be really well-intentioned, but the message can feel really tone deaf. Or can really completely miss the mark. Or you could put yourself further at risk for certain action.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Or you're contributing to fear, and that's not to say we shouldn't be afraid, right? There are, like, some of the headlines, and then, the way they get circulated, it just becomes like a fear machine, and I'm, like, doing a ringer with my hand.
So, actually, because I was thinking through this. And I was thinking through it myself, but then also with my team around responding to Victor Perez's killing last… Like, last week a lot of people were talking about that because it happened two weeks ago. And the word that came in my head was slow advocacy. Like, I needed to metabolize it and like, think through it, and think through how I wanted to show up and how to show up in a way that felt aligned with me and NDI.
And then, when I did talk about it, and when I have been creating content around it, it came from a much more metabolized place, because part of it was around the like, "What conversation am I contributing to here? How am I doing that?"
And it's hard, because people look at a platform that's big and it's like, why aren't you talking on this? But like, I needed a minute to metabolize, and then, to think through, like, how to show up in that moment.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%. And I think that's a great, great way to manage that. And for those of you listening, maybe being able to do some of the same. One thing I've realized, in these moments, right? Like, these very polarizing, volatile moments that continue to happen because we just live in a horrific, endless news cycle. Like, it's not easy to find horrific things that are happening.
And we talked a little bit about yesterday how our bodies and nervous systems were not designed to absorb that way.
But I think in these moments, what I'm trying harder and harder to do is to sit back, absorb, not react immediately, because so often, like, especially, those of us who have all of these privileges, especially, white people, like content creators, can feel really performative if there's certain reactions right away in certain contexts. It can feel tone deaf. It can feel like you are centering. And, you know, I'm just trying to be so much more mindful of that, you know, in general. And it's interesting, like, prior to Autism Acceptance Awareness Month, whatever the hell [CROSSTALK 00:18:33]-
MEGAN NEFF: I just call it Autism Everything month [CROSSTALK 00:18:53]-
PATRICK CASALE: Autism Everything [CROSSTALK 00:18:36]-
MEGAN NEFF: I need to trademark that. You really do. Maybe we'll edit that out, maybe, so nobody else hears that and steals it. I'm just kidding. Going into Autism Everything month, like that a lot, I had content that was already pre-planned, pre-created, you know, like, Autism Acceptance, Over Awareness, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was all created, a month long of content. So, I don't have to deal with it every single day.
But I am much more of a content creator in the moment where, like, pre-planning for me is fine for my social media manager, but it's not really my buy. But I'm like, "Whatever. I'm paying this person to do it anyway."
But the reality is, stuff starts happening, right? And then, your content comes out, but then, it feels tone deaf, because it's like, I'm really missing the mark, right? Like, we're not listening to all of the people who are saying, like, autism awareness for these reasons. And then, it's like, yeah, no, shit. Like, that is the vibe right now, and that's really, for me, having more cultivated content of really metabolizing, like you said, and actually putting my thoughts to things, opposed to just like cookie cutter, generic, there's whatever. Because that's not me and you way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Okay, and then, let's flip it. Let's flip it to the consumer. So, like we're talking about, I think for both of us, we value showing up authentically. And that is part of it for me too, though. Like, is this performative for me to post? Because I know if I don't post, then, like, X, Y, Z. And so, for me, it's so important that I never post from a performative energy.
And it sounds like for you, it's like, yeah, you probably paid a lot for all that content to be created. Then you're like, "Nope."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, in how we show up authenticity is really important to us. Okay, let's flip it to the consumer. So, I started doing this thing, so in The Nook last year, and we're going to do it again this year. We did a wellness sprint. Like, a sprint cleansing. And one of the weeks was digital. We had like six weeks, and we like, cleansed different parts of our lives.
And so, what I did during that week, which was really interesting, is I just scrolled, and my sole purpose for going on was I'm going to scroll, and I'm going to notice my nervous systems' response to this content. And that's the only lens I'm going to have. Not like, do I like it? Do I agree with it? But what is my nervous system's response?
And I noticed, like, content creators that I actually really like and respect, but like, some of it was like, this just puts me in my fight flight and, like, I really appreciate this content, but I'm like, if I'm taking a nervous system cleanse approach, it's like, okay, let me consider that. And not in a way of, like, oh gosh, now, the second voice in my head is like, "But not in a way of let me block out the hard stuff in the world." Like, that's a very privileged thing to be like, "I'm just going to pay attention to the stuff that makes me happy." I don't mean it in that way.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, I didn't take it that way. But I appreciate the clarification. And I think that's great. You know, I think one thing we were talking about as we're trying to figure out, like, episode ideas for this, and I'm going to butcher our title already, despite just saying it. So…
MEGAN NEFF: Worthy…
PATRICK CASALE: Worthy…
MEGAN NEFF: And…
PATRICK CASALE: And Worn Down, #...
MEGAN NEFF: Worthy and Worn Down.
PATRICK CASALE: Not Your Typical Wellness.
MEGAN NEFF: Worn Down and Worthy.
PATRICK CASALE: One of the two. Yeah, we'll figure it out. It'll be on the [CROSSTALK 00:21:55]-
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:21:56].
PATRICK CASALE: …accurately. One thing I was thinking about, you know, when I was mentioning, like, "Oh, I'd love to talk about what travel has done for me in terms of all of this." And the thing I think I enjoyed the most about being in New Zealand, besides, like, the beauty and all the typical New Zealand things, because I was 18 hours ahead of everybody, it meant that I would wake up the following day from everyone else, which was real weird, at 9:00 AM would be about 3:00 PM eastern time here the day before. So, in a span of like six to seven hours, most of the people I communicate the most with were going to bed. And it was only, like, noon or two o'clock in the afternoon there.
So, I was no longer checking my phone, because I was like, "Oh, everyone is asleep. I don't have to worry about anyone, or, like, be concerned about missing communication. And I don't have to look at my phone at all." And it was really awesome. I mean, that was so amazing for me.
MEGAN NEFF: So, that's so interesting. So, I'm just going to make some guesses to see about making the links explicitly. So, you're not checking your phone as much because people are sleeping. Does that also mean you're then not getting pulled into like, headlines and social media?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And you noticed, because, yeah, we were chatting a lot while you were there. And I mean, I know it was more than just being on social media less, but like, you were a different version of you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, like, I told you, I know you use this term a lot, like that free floating anxiety that you and I both experience a lot of. I felt like when I was there, there were days, if not several days in a row, where I didn't experience anxiety at all, where I was just like existing. And it was amazing. And I've never experienced that in my life.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I was going to say that. Like, your baseline, I think of you as like nine out of 10 hyper vigilant, anxious.
PATRICK CASALE: That's right.
MEGAN NEFF: 10 out of 10 lately.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. It was just amazing. So, like, having that removal from that news, that 24-hour like news cycle, so to speak, not that news isn't happening on that side of the world. It's just the time frame really helped me, and it was allowing me to just be a little bit more removed, so that I could be a little bit more intentional in how I've metabolized information.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I love how you kind of backward engineered it to identify, like, the trigger. And I know there's, like, some controversial, like, ideas around habits and neurodivergence. But I actually really like habits literature, partly, because it, like, breaks it down into, like, scientific. It's like what is the trigger for the thing that makes the action more or less likely to happen. It's logic which I like that.
So, what I'm hearing, the trigger there was you checking phone to text with people. So, when that is less then that reduces social media use. So, for folks who it's like, yeah, I do get pulled into this stuff, and I don't want to. Partly, it's, how do I minimize the trigger?
I think of the triggers as, yeah, like portals. They're portals that, like, make an action more or less likely. So, it would be maybe, like, having an hour away from the phone, or having, like, some rituals where access to phone is less.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I would even start with, like, if an hour away feels like a lot, 15 minutes, 30 minutes, you know, like small chunks of time. I almost looked at it as like, when I used to do a lot of addiction work to get through like, that trigger, or that impulse, or that impulse to act, or those flooding thoughts to step away from it for 15 minutes at a time. And that felt almost impossible back in the day when I was in active addiction.
But like now, if those thoughts came over me, I know 15 minutes I got to get through this next like wave, you know? And almost looking at it as that wave that comes in really intensely, but then it dissipates. And then, it comes in really intensely, and then it dissipates.
But yeah, I would start that way. And I know for me, despite my best efforts of like putting my phone in the other room at night, starting around like 6:00 PM, 7:00 PM, I still wake up and the first thing I do is go get the phone and like go on it. And if you're starting your day that way, flooded by messaging, and whatever, it's not the greatest way to start the day, in my opinion, at least for me. And it becomes a bit like obsessive in that way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, I've been thinking about this too, and I've actually crept back into that. I started a practice a while ago that I actually want to, like, maybe, as we're even doing this batch recording over the next two weeks, I'll do it to, like, experiment with it. But I started a practice of doing monotropic mornings, because what I realized I was doing was I would start my day checking my inbox. And then, like, news cycles aside, it would pull me into like five different urgent directions, and my brain would splinter, which we know from autistic, oh, this is a huge part of wellness. So, like the autistic brain monotropic style, we like deep singular focus, and then, when we're forced into split-focused activities, it can be really stressful for us. So, I think a huge part of autistic wellness, and probably ADHD wellness too, is creating kind of monotropic-friendly life. But also creating space for monotropic.
Anyways, what I was noticing is I would start my day with split attention. And then, I'd get so overwhelmed. I'd like defensively go into monotropic mode. So, I call this defensive monotropic mode when it's like, I just need to find a project, and go into deep focus, and block out the world. But it was different because it was reactive, it wasn't proactive.
So, for a while, I was starting my mornings with journaling, and writing, and doing something very singular-focused with my cup of coffee. And I'd actually like to revisit that and to start my day back with monotropic focus, because what I noticed is that set the tone. So, then when I did go to my inbox or whatnot, I was doing it from a place of more steadiness versus starting my day feeling fragmented and scattered.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a great, great suggestion. I'm going to try to implement that, because what I do, to offer the alternative is check your phone immediately. [CROSSTALK 00:28:50]-
MEGAN NEFF: But that's what I'm doing right now. So, just to be clear, like, that's the ideal, but that's what I've crept back into.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure. And then, like, my issue for sometimes is not even to check it because I want to check it. It is because I want to clear it. My OCD really does not allow me to have messages or notifications. So, like, I want to clear it immediately. That's my goal when I look at my phone the next day. So, I want to, like, delete all the emails that I can. Get rid of them all. Look through all the Instagram messages and notifications. Get rid of them all. Same for Voxer, same for Facebook. Get rid of all of it. Then I feel like grounded in it.
So, like, I would love to start with more monotropic focus and being more mindful of it, and then kind of going into that place. I'll still want to clear it, but I would love to just do it without feeling like the fragmentation and the splintering that exists most days, because what that often leads to is then I turn the TV on, then I am like scrolling, then I'm not paying attention to anything. And like, by the time I know it's like 11:00 AM and I'm like, "Oh, well, half my day is gone."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I've been feeling that, in general, with, like, I call it ping pong tasks. Of like, they are starting to take up so much of my day, and it's similar to you of, and then, I'm like, "What did I do with my day? It's like half my day."
And I used to do something similar too. I call it bucket B tasks, my ping-pong tasks. And then, I'll often put on a show, because it feels so excruciating to be like, all I'm doing right now is ping-pong tasks. So, it's like, I need to be like, "Well, I'm watching a show and I'm doing this, which then makes it less efficient. This is how I'm using my walking treadmill lately is because ping-pong tasks, and especially, with what we're talking about with like the consumption we're talking about, there is a like arousal activation that comes with that. So, I'm finding if I'm walking while I do it, it really helps. And then, I'll, like, look down and be like, "Yeah, I just spent 90 minutes doing, I don't know what, but oh, cool. I walked like 5000 steps."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that. And sounds like a lot more intentionality and a lot more thoughtfulness about even the most mundane things that need to get done so…
MEGAN NEFF: Well, but this is like wellness, right? Is like figuring out, like, okay, what are the structures in my life that are in place, that aren't in place? How do I make this task a little bit more bearable?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, sometimes, like wellness, for me, in terms of all the stuff we're talking about is delegation. And delegation has been a huge saving grace for me to be like, hey, someone on my team, handing stuff off to them if I can. Because it just takes away that like pressure and feeling of urgency and that need to respond despite my demand avoidance that often shows up in terms of responding to anything.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that would be, especially, as your account is getting bigger, like that would just be massively inconvenient. And I had that, and then, I got so overwhelmed that then, it was like, "I'll respond to nothing." Something like [CROSSTALK 00:32:08]-
PATRICK CASALE: Right. One part of wellness with content, though, you've talked about this on here, and we've had discussions around strategies you've built in, and I really admire them is that you have, like, automated messages for both your Instagram account and for your email. And I think we've even had some guests on the podcast like follow your lead and implement that too after. So, I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that. But I think that's a great portion of this too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yes, and that was part of that reaction to that kind of digital burnout, was putting those auto responders up, and then, partly just to release the expectation like I need to respond now. Like, I actually, I probably shouldn't say this, and I'm actually going to be implementing some changes to my email, but I still actually respond to most email. They're other things I don't really respond to. But just having that autoresponder, it like, sets the frame for the interaction of like, hey, like, here's some resources if you need them. Here's what to expect if you get a response. So, that, like, was enough to lower my anxiety.
And I feel like that's maybe a little bit like a step away from the digital consumption, but for people who are just trying to develop healthier relationships to digital space, like thinking about digital boundaries, how accessible do you want to be?
The neurotypical world is also really fast. Like, I noticed whenever a neurotypical emails me back and it's been two days, they're like, "I'm so sorry for my slow response." And I'm like, "Yo, I don't say sorry for my slow response unless it's three weeks." It's like, what timeline are you working on?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, the differentiation, and urgency levels, and expectations are quite different. So, yeah.
And I noticed if I find myself in that mindset of like, "Oh, I have to respond quickly. Oh, this isn't taking too long." Those are moments when I do need to, like, zoom out a little bit and slow down, just kind of like, check in with myself too, of like, it's the driving factor here.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, an email is harder for us, right? Because there's the like, I mean, we've talked about this. We're masking an email too. Like, okay, and then I warm this up. And actually, this would be good as part of the wellness series, but I don't know if I know enough. Like, it'd actually be interesting to do a whole conversation on email alone, because, especially, for ADHDers, like, email can be so overwhelming. Like, I have taken like, kind of a, like a just bear through approach. But I'm starting to realize, like, I am not accommodating my ADHD well at all. And I'm actually starting to look into like, whether it's, you know, reader devices, or whether it's like speech to text devices, or whether it's like AI integrations that can help, like, make it less autistic sounding.
There are, I think, accommodations we can build into our inbox that would support our wellness. Because I actually think email alone, it sounds weird, but like that's a huge stressor, again, especially for ADHDers.
PATRICK CASALE: Huge stressor. I would like to respond to all of my emails the way I was jokingly reading that podcast ad in like, if I'm being honest, like, you know, because that's one thing I just struggle so much with in email correspondence, is like having it feel fake, or disingenuous, or really like high masking. And I just hate it so much. And I just [CROSSTALK 00:35:50]-
MEGAN NEFF: Wait, can you give us a sample of how you're going to read the Jane ad?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, sure. Okay, let me get back into that really depressed place that I was in 30 minutes ago. So, if you own a private practice and you've been maybe looking for some support and you're just trying to make your life a little easier, Jane app for mental health practices is really great. And here's the link. And check it out.
[INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:29] like, why did we sponsor this?
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, that was amazing. But, like, I actually would really appreciate, especially, if it's a voice memo, it's like, "Hey, Megan Anna."
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:36:46]
MEGAN NEFF: So, but bringing in, like, fun and authenticity, yeah, and I've actually started, it's probably not the most time effective. But, like, one thing I'm doing is, so I use Tello, which they are not sponsoring it umlike Jane. Thank you, Jane.
But Tello is a software that I use where it makes it so easy to screen record and just like, record off the cuff. So, I've started experimenting with like, I'll just record. Like, I'll be in my walking treadmill, and I'll record responses versus email it. And I don't know if it's the novelty or if it's just that's easier processing for me. I think because of the dyslexia, I do have to, like, reread my emails quite a bit or just have huge disclaimers, because, like, I'll have the wrong words in there. I'll have…
PATRICK CASALE: Words that you've made up, potentially.
MEGAN NEFF: Definitely words that I've made up. And so, that's one thing I'm trying is just like off the cuff videos. But yeah, adding novelty. So, you doing voice memos in your in your EO voice would be a great way to infuse your digital practice with something kind of novel. And I would love to hear people's responses.
PATRICK CASALE: I sent you a voice memo yesterday and your response in all caps was, "Patrick, you sound depressed as fuck." And I was like, "Yeah, probably so."
MEGAN NEFF: Hey, it's so slow.
PATRICK CASALE: It's amazing, though. Like it's amazing, you know, as we're talking about worthy and worn out, #NotYourNeurotypicalWellness. This is wellness in a nutshell for me, right? Because when we started today, 35, 40 minutes ago, I was very low energy, and now, because we're connecting, I'm like freaking up a bit. And I'll likely crash after this, because I just don't have the energy reserves right now. But this is at least enjoyable, you know?
And I think when we are really struggling, when we are really low, and we are experiencing a lot of depression, it can be just these little, little things. And it does not have to be, like, prolonged, it does not have to be an all-day thing. It just can be an hour, it can be 10 minutes. But like, these little things are super helpful.
MEGAN NEFF: I was literally just thinking about that, because we've been laughing. And we're like, laughing at how depressed your voice sounds.
PATRICK CASALE: I have to, right? Like, it's such a cure, in some ways, is like releasing some dopamine.
MEGAN NEFF: Laughter is so connecting. I actually thought about that yesterday, too. Last week's episode on grief, you shared a story about Hazel. And we were laughing about Hazel rolling in the, like, manure.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And when I think back to times I've laughed the most, it's actually been like the week after someone I loved has died. And you're sharing stories of humor, and there's something so deeply connecting about laughter and healing that laughter is huge.
And Yunetta, who we've had on here before, she made some lovely videos on this around joy, and I think, like, black joy and black laughter, and how you can laugh in moments like these.
PATRICK CASALE: You have to.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, we can share dark memes. So, if part of your feed on social media is like, just funny stuff or dark humor, like, or if you're getting a reprieve from the news cycle through laughter and funny memes, like, please do that. Like, that's part of resistance is being able to hold on to your humanity in that way, being able to hold on to creativity and laughter.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, 100%. It's like it's so crucial to remind you that you are alive, that you are human, that you are allowed to experience other emotions, even when things feel really, really dark or really, really depressing. Dark humor is my jam. I [CROSSTALK 00:41:09]-
MEGAN NEFF: Well, it's my jam, too. I, actually, literally just had this thought. When we release this, like, I'm sure we'll release reels every other one can we release some like, really random dark humor meme?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And like, #NeurodivergentWellness.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes. Please do that. Let's do that for sure. It's so helpful. That's why I love that disappointing affirmations account and book that I have. And like, that's why, when I went on my first day with Arielle, I asked her if she liked Cards Against Humanity. And I feel like if she was like, "no, that really offends me" I mean, I don't know if we are married for 11 years. I don't have the answer to that. But it would be a challenge. I think so many therapists have such dark senses of humor too.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I think all… not all, I don't want to generalize, a lot of helpers,
have really dark humor.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. It helps hold the heavy, I think.
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, it's actually interesting. I've been more tapped into my dark humor lately, and I realized it's something I mask. Like, my therapist actually asked this a while ago, of like, kind of, do you feel like you mask in professional settings? I'm like, "No. I'm, like, embracing my awkwardness."
And then, I realized I do still mask a bit. Like even, you know, not wanting to drop the F bombs as much on here. And I do, because I get emails when I do. And then, I feel bad, or just filtering out my dark humor, because it's like, "God." I don't know, but I feel more permission. I don't know if it's because of everything going on, or if it's just my more deepening unmasking. I feel more permission to, like, embrace the dark humor. And yeah, I just think we need it right now. If that's your jam, then [CROSSTALK 00:43:07]-
PATRICK CASALE: If that's your jam.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, if it's not, that's cool too.
PATRICK CASALE: If it's not, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Then go have some self-compassion exercises [CROSSTALK 00:43:16]-
PATRICK CASALE: Right, exactly. [CROSSTALK 00:43:16].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: You know, I think that, and I'm being mindful of time for I'm social ligamenting. I think meeting each other in Belize, I noticed a shift. And maybe it was just timing. Maybe it was just actually meeting each other and, like, realizing we don't hate each other after spending a prolonged period of time. I noticed an unmasking in you, in that way too, because you kept referencing, like, your 13-year-old child…
MEGAN NEFF: Child.
PATRICK CASALE: Child parts of you.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, okay, yeah. I thought you were talking about one of my kids.
PATRICK CASALE: No, no, no, no.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I've got a 12-year-old boy.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I just thought it was really funny, because you were really like, I don't know.
MEGAN NEFF: Silly?
PATRICK CASALE: It felt very silly, it felt like very like free energy. And I really enjoyed getting to experience that.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I do have a really playful, silly side, and it's interesting. I've always been the opposite, where I lead with my serious side. It feels less vulnerable. And I have to really trust you, for you to see my silly. And then, once I trust you, it's like, okay, I can pull out the 12-year-old boy. Like, I don't know why it's a 12-year-old boy. It's just like, it's a 12-year-old ADHD boy energy who, like, can be inappropriate and very playful. Yeah, yep.
PATRICK CASALE: I enjoyed quite a bit. Okay.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so let's do some takeaways, because we have diverged a bit. So okay, some other things. And also, Brett, AuDHD Boss, who I know, I've been on his YouTube channel. You're going to be on it. He actually has a really good video on this. And maybe we can even link to that. I think, where they talk about, like, maybe five or six steps. But if I was going to try to make a bullet list.
So, I think thinking about mindful engagement with social media, which includes, like, how is my system responding to this? Is it like making me feel more connected? Like, I've empowered to like, yeah, this is happening, and it's bad, and I'm going to go do something. Or is it like pulling me into withdrawal and helpless collapse? So, mindful consumption, like paying attention. Time, thinking through time.
The other thought I had when you were talking about, like, putting phone away for like 15 or an hour would be replacing that with something really pleasurable, especially, if that's hard, then I feel like the replacement activity would have to be really pleasurable to be able to help us get out of that kind of dependency a lot of us can form around our phones.
And then, I think the third I would add is like thinking through whose voices you're letting into your head. Like, when we consume stuff, we're letting that voice into our head, and especially, if your ADHD like voices can stick. And so, thinking through whose voice do I want this information through? I know, like, you sent me someone on Facebook who's, like, a historian. And I really like Heather.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And I know-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I know, like, for me, Pod Save America, there they were, like, former Obama speech writers, where I'm like, okay, I can take in this information once or twice a week through their voices, because like, and so, figuring out the voices where you want this information received from, because that's also how it will live in our head. I don't know. So, those are three bullet points that come to my mind. What would you add to that?
PATRICK CASALE: Circling back to, like, what we were talking about with Yunetta, finding joy and playfulness, even in spurts, tapping into humor, whether it be dark humor or less dark. I think those two things for me. And then, I like your idea of just, like, starting the day differently. For me, I'm going to try that because having more, you know, just mindful, monotropic, intentional time, instead of immediately getting up and going to reach for my phone and really want to be more intentional about how I use my energy, because, yeah, I think that would be for me.
I was just trying to use the tagline or the title we created, and I already forgot it again.
MEGAN NEFF: Not Your Neurotypical Wellness [CROSSTALK 00:48:05]-
PATRICK CASALE: I know that part. What was the other part [CROSSTALK 00:48:07]-
MEGAN NEFF: Worn Out and Worthy.
PATRICK CASALE: Worn Out and Worthy. So, if we are "worn out and worthy" our time and our energy reserves are so valuable and so limited. And I think it's just important to honor those things and be really intentional about how we use them.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I love that word honor. Like, it's not about, oh, I've got to, like, do less of this or more of that, or like, it's about, like, you're a human living through a very hard cultural moment, and you've got limited energy reserves. What does it look like to honor that?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. And if you, I was going to say if you are a private practice therapist…
MEGAN NEFF: Go check out Jane.
PATRICK CASALE: Go check out the Jane app and use code DCPOD.
MEGAN NEFF: It's probably like a running joke. And so, like, no, we actually are really thankful for Jane, because-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, very grateful.
MEGAN NEFF: It is, like, one of our longest, most enduring sponsors. And one of the pivots we're making. And our wellness is like, let's just not go after like two-episode sponsors or like sponsors where afterwards we're like, "Wait, that didn't feel value aligned." So, we're really prioritizing companies who are like, "Yes, like, we've got you. We've got you for like 15 episodes or a whole season." So, like, let's make Jane a running joke.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, in a good way.
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:49:39] giving them some extra air time in a good way where we are giving them some extra air time because we really are deeply appreciative that they are supporting our work.
PATRICK CASALE: Here's one thing I will say about knowing us, and talking about dark humor, talking about laughing at ourselves, the fact that we were actually, like, integrating this into conversation opposed to just playing the ad read that we've done actually probably means that we're more invested. And I know that probably, from the outside looking in would be like, can completely unorthodox and counter intuitive, but here we are, because that's who we are.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, but that's also very us. And also, because we feel like supported by them. So, it's like-
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, you get to be our running joke that we've been running-
PATRICK CASALE: CROSSTALK 00:50:22]-
MEGAN NEFF: …so many times throughout the [INDISCERNIBLE 00:50:26] episodes.
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. So, if you do like our episodes…
MEGAN NEFF: And you're a therapist go check out Jane.
PATRICK CASALE: And use code DCPOD for two months off.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, right. Use the code, or else they don't know you came from us, that's a problem.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, that too. And those will be in the show notes. And if you are listening to us and watching us on YouTube, or following us on Instagram, episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms. And goodbye.
MEGAN NEFF: But wait, Patrick.
PATRICK CASALE: Wait, there's more.
MEGAN NEFF: Can you just, for like sake of dark humor, can you just say what you said, like, in your depressed voice?
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, got to get into character again. If you're enjoying this content and you want to follow us, if it feels like it's worth your time and your energy, you can find us on all major platforms and YouTube. And if you want to, you can like, and download, and subscribe, and share. All right. Goodbye.
