Episode 104 (Season 2): Neurodivergent Realities, Rupture & Repair, and Podcast Updates
May 01, 2025
Show Notes
Prioritizing wellness and authentic connection is essential for neurodivergent individuals, especially during times of low energy or change. This episode highlights how embracing interdependence, rest, and honest communication can support deeper well-being and resilience within both friendships and professional collaborations.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, candidly discuss what led them to take a break from the podcast and how that pause deepened their understanding of self-care, boundaries, and the value of neurodivergent connection. Together, they share personal experiences of attachment wounds, rupture and repair, community building, and new season plans—without guest speakers, focusing on honest, relatable conversations between friends and colleagues.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Discover a realistic and neurodivergent-affirming approach to wellness that acknowledges low energy periods, demand avoidance, and the vital importance of community and interdependence.
- Learn practical tools for navigating and repairing relationship ruptures, including how to get beneath content-driven arguments to the underlying attachment needs and emotions.
- Find validation and actionable self-care frameworks, from balancing self-soothing with self-nourishment to reimagining community as “mile deep, inch wide”—especially relevant in the current climate of heightened stress and activism.
While reflecting on your own wellness and connections, consider how you might honor your needs for both rest and community support. Listen to this episode for an open, compassionate look at what real, sustainable neurodivergent wellness can look like.
Articles and essays mentioned in this podcast:
- Dr. Neff’s article on rupture repair (written shortly after the experience discussed in this episode): neurodivergentinsights.com/rupture-repair
- Identity Development Model Article (also discussed in this episode): neurodivergentinsights.substack.com/p/neurodivergent-identity-arcs
- Two Forms of Self-Care by Dr. Daniel Wendler: neurodivergentinsights.com/two-forms-self-care
Divergent Conversations Underground (a space to continue and deepen the conversation together)
- Divergent Conversations Underground: If you’d like to go deeper with us this season, we’re excited to stretch into more nuanced, searching conversations in community. divergentconversations.substack.com
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Thanks to Our Sponsors: Jane & The Autistic Burnout Workbook
✨ Jane:
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✨ The Autistic Burnout Workbook:
I'm Dr. Megan Anna Neff, owner of Neurodivergent Insights, and I'm excited to announce the release of my book, The Autistic Burnout Workbook. I'm running a special deal for those who support my work. After you order, you will get a coupon code that you can use toward our store for the same amount. For example, the workbook costs $18.99, so after purchase, you'd get a credit of $18.99 to use in our digital shop or in our Etsy shop, which gets you another digital workbook of your choosing for free. This is technically a pre-order promotion that was originally set to end on March 10th, but for listeners of the podcast, I'm going to extend this deal, so if you buy the book in the next month, you can also redeem this special. Thank you for supporting my work. It means so much to me and I hope that you will find this a helpful resource for you as you continue to build a life that is a bit more resilient to autistic burnout.
- Use the following link to grab this offer: neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/17ea17a4bb8b8034ab2bf9b03c560a64
- After this deal ends, you can use this link to purchase this workbook: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
💬 Join Divergent Conversations Underground
Divergent Conversations Underground is a space for messy conversations, real connection, and unfinished thoughts in a neurodivergent-affirming community. If you’d like to go deeper with us into more nuanced, searching conversations, join here: divergentconversations.substack.com
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
PATRICK CASALE: All right, everyone. Welcome back after a long, extended hiatus and break on Divergent Conversations. We are finally batch-recording a new season and doing things very differently going forward. So, where was I going with that? I don't know, but thanks for still continuing to follow, engage, support.
We got a lot of messages while we were away about all of our re-releases for some of you who have listened to those episodes multiple times and still find a lot of good insight and information and support. So, that makes me feel really like good about continuing to put this content out into the world.
And Megan Anna and I are in weird headspaces right now, specifically, me. So, I'm just going to name that. I've saved all of my energy for this next hour and a half.
MEGAN NEFF: Which feels like a bit of pressure to me. I'm like, "Oh, oh." Like, you're juicing all of the ounces of energy out of you for this conversation.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: And that feels like a kind of a little bit of a sacred gift, not just to me, but also to our listeners, in the sense of, I do know you're in a season of really low energy. And so it's like, "Okay, here's the one thing I'm going to do today."
PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate that. And no pressure needed. Like, weirdly, I feel the pressure where I'm like low energy. "Am I going to bring anything to the table?" That's where my mind immediately goes, like, "I don't want Meg and Anna to have to deal with the heavy lifting." So to speak.
MEGAN NEFF: I kind of feel like love that about our friendship and our dynamic here is like, that's the reality of being neurodivergent, right? Is like, you saw me through the fall when I, like, I had very limited energy for work, and you've seen me in intense brain fog when I can, like, barely words into cohesive sentences. And, I mean, I think it's tough when we're probably both in a down spot, but that's part of being in relationship. That's part of interdependence is like, yeah, you're low right now, I have a bit more energy. And often it's the reverse of that.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally, yeah. That's such a great reframe for me, which I love about you. That's a really good perspective, honestly. And I think that's so important, wonderful segue, by the way, into really what we want this next season and series to be about.
MEGAN NEFF: See, even in your fatigue, you've still got the social ligaments [INDISCERNIBLE 00:05:40].
PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. Yes, I do have the social ligaments. I think that's what we want this to be about, right? Like we bounced ideas off of why we wanted to take a break, and we'll talk about that in a second. But we want to be more intentional. We want to take more breaks. You mentioned having more feminine energy in the podcast, in terms of how we structure, how we schedule.
We wanted to do collections, Megan's word, and I think we wanted to start off with wellness. And we acknowledge that there is so much going on right now in the world, in this country, in the autism spaces, especially, and we're going to, you know, talk in a nuanced way, as we always try to do, and as we're both existing, and try and figure out things for ourselves.
MEGAN NEFF: That's really well said. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, we have a lot of themes that we talked about and that we'd like to do. Because I think our thinking right now is we'll do like, 12 episodes a season, and release a few seasons a year. And we definitely want to get into some of the complexity and heaviness that's happening.
But we wanted to set the tone with wellness, because that's partly why we took the break was, I think I reached out to you, and I was like, "I am not…" It was in middle of all of, so folks who, like know Neurodivergent Insights might know this, folks that don't know it was like, I did a website migration. My website's very huge. It went terribly, horribly wrong. And I, like, for the first time, was, like, am I going to have to, like, close my business because I've got four employees at this point? Like, we depend a lot on website visits and sales, and that was very stressful time. And everything was happening, well, not everything was happening politically, like, because it keeps happening, but it was in a moment where there's a lot happening politically, and I was shutting down. I'm like, "I can't handle being perceived right now."
And I needed a break. And I, like, reached out, And I knew that was a hard ask, and then thought through like, what would it look like to embody the things that we want to help other people see around? How do we do wellness, especially, amidst all that people are navigating right now?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said. I know that was a really, really stressful time for you for so many reasons, with the website migration, with all the issues that came with it, because I saw a lot of the behind-the-scenes of it. I mean, and then having the financial burden, plus just the… You've worked so hard to create it, to see that come like crumbling down at something that wasn't your fault is really frustrating. And you feel kind of powerless in that, you know, as well. And I think it, you know-
MEGAN NEFF: Fragility, yeah?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, fragility, true.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, I encountered fragility in a way that, like, and I hate that feeling, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I can't imagine feeling like, am I going to have to close up shop because of something that, you know, should have been pretty routine? And I felt, you know, we can speak candidly, I suppose, on here, about this experience, but I felt really guilty because I gave you the referral for that, and it felt horrible. You know, you're a friend, and I saw all of this happening behind the scenes, and it really was a painful experience. And it sounds like there were some lessons in it, too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And like, that's one thing, and I don't mean this in a toxic, positive way. And, yeah, you know, in psychology, especially, around, like, hard things, sometimes you talk about meaning-making. And like that to me has always been the thing that helps me is, like, going to meaning-making.
And maybe it's sometimes when I've effed up, like, when I've stepped in it, and I've done something that I feel really guilty or shameful about, it's like, "Okay, what's the invitation for me to learn? And grow, and do better?" Because then, there's meaning-making in it. That's like, the one thing that will calm down my OCD, to be honest, because I am so guilt-prone and rumination-prone.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And same thing with this stuff, is like, okay, there's got to be some invitation in here toward growth, if I see it. And again, not to bypass, like, all of the other negative emotions that came with it.
But the thing for me, and I think it does connect to this wellness, and even to how we started was interdependence of I've, over the last four years, two years, built up really strong digital walls around me because my nervous system cannot handle being perceived, being exposed, the feedback. Like, I'm always open to call ins, but like, just the level of feedback and being perceived was so much for me.
But what I realized in that process was I'd also blocked out, like, people's kindness and appreciation. And I needed community support. And I invited it. And I like, cried from joy and of like, "Oh my gosh, people have me." And as someone who's very hyper-independent, it was such a beautiful breakthrough moment for me, of like, okay, there is another way to do this, to do this whole human thing, to do this whole community thing.
And I think, like, back to you and me, but also back to our community, when I think about all we're navigating, like, the way forward is going to be through interdependence. It's going to be through community. It's going to be through building, like, grassroots movement and connections, where it's like, we've got each other, we've got each other in this.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, that's really well said. And, you know, I think when we think of wellness, I'm interested to see where people's minds go when they first hear that word. But it's holistic, right? Like we have to really take a zoom out approach and look at a lot of the different things that impact us on a on a cellular level, on a micro level, on a macro level, like on a community-based level, there's so much that goes into wellness. And I think I want to just applaud you on air, as you just said, "I don't like being perceived for asking for a break." Because I think that took a lot for you. And, to say, "Hey, I want to shift the way we're going to do this if we're going to continue going forward." And, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Do we want to? Like, especially, I feel like we're talking about wellness, and we're kind of getting into community and connection, which we didn't know how we were going to start, but I love that, actually, we're starting on, like, interdependence maybe.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:12:49].
MEGAN NEFF: Do you feel comfortable talking about our exchange and, like, the attachment reaction you had, and then, like, how we navigated that. Because I actually think, first of all, I'm really proud of us for how we navigated it. And I also think that might be helpful for listeners to hear how like rupture and repair can happen.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, you did send an email about it after asking me about it.
MEGAN NEFF: I did.
PATRICK CASALE: So, yes.
MEGAN NEFF: I did not name him but people might have intuited.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure, this person that I spend a lot of time with creating these things with.
MEGAN NEFF: The one friend I have in my life.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, of course, I'm happy to talk about it. I don't think we need to go into like black and white specifics about like everything, but yes, I think let's talk about what that was like for both of us. So-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, oh go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: Set the stage, go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Like, so you get my, like, long-ass voice memo. And first of all, like, your headspace, like, just all of our headspace are just messed up at this point. And what happens to you when you get that voice memo?
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, I get a long-ass voice memo. I think it was, like, seven minutes long.
MEGAN NEFF: Which you've told me before, like, do not send me longer than two-minute voice memos. I cannot do that.
PATRICK CASALE: I can't typically, like, listen and process it, you know, to a lot of audio messaging. So, after two minutes, that's usually my cutoff. But I listened to the whole thing. I was like, damn, did I just really listen to a seven-minute voice memo. So, I listened to the memo. I'm out with some friends. Maybe we are partaking in some alcoholic beverages. Maybe not. I don't… but nevertheless, not an excuse for my reaction whatsoever. But that was definitely the headspace I was in.
And I think I got the voice memo. I was like, "Hey, I think…" I don't remember how you phrased it. I would need to remember that correctly. But it was something like about taking a break, right? From Divergent Conversations. And I think you even mentioned like, when I see it pop up on my calendar, it's really stressful, it's really overwhelming. It causes me a lot of angst in a lot of ways. And I was just like, "Whoa." Yeah, and my immediate reaction was like attachment wound, abandonment stuff, insecurity, right?
What I was experiencing was like Megan Anna, and I'm going to prioritize saying Megan Anna for the rest of this season. I just want everyone to hear that. Megan and Anna is apparently going to prioritize less cursing because I already heard you say F up, and I'm going to prioritize saying your name the way you want it stated. I experienced like Megan Anna doesn't want to do this with me and doesn't like me. That is what happened so viscerally for me. I was like, they are telling me that this project that we kind of, I wouldn't say, put blood, sweat, and tears into but…
MEGAN NEFF: We've put a lot into it.
PATRICK CASALE: We've put a lot into it.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Is something that they are no longer interested in being a part of, and that just hurts so bad in that moment. And it was more about, I think I was grieving the loss of friendship, and not really so much of project because, ultimately, project is great, and I'm proud of what we've created, honestly, in the last two years. But if it came to an end today, there would be some grief. But it would be more about the grief of the connection and the relationship. That would be the heaviest-hitting grief for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And once you said that, because, like, and then it kind of, which [CROSSTALK 00:16:22]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:16:22].
MEGAN NEFF: …happens with attachment. Yeah, it like, became about, like, a technical thing. And then I was like, "Whoa, I don't feel recognized here." And like, then we were texting, which is… And this is, like, the only time we had a text exchange where, like, I started to feel some heat in my body, like-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:16:37]-
MEGAN NEFF: I feel so misrepresented. Yeah, yeah. But I think we caught it pretty quickly. And we got on the phone because, and then it was like, we were able to get to, like, okay, what is happening here? Because it's obviously not about this conversation, right? It's happening at the surface.
And I think this is what's so important about, like, attachment wounds is, so if we were to map this out, I expressed a need it I, and I didn't think on attachment impact it would have for you. Like, this is my weird stuff, is I have this pervasive narrative that, like, I'm not that important, so like, it would not even occur to me that, like, I could activate an attachment wound in you, which is, like, I realize that's a really weird thing to say, especially, because we've talked about attachment. I know these things. So, that's not even in my mind, right?
You experience that attachment wound. Your defenses come online, because that's what happens to all of us when our attachment system. And I think us being us and us having the connection we do, we were able to catch it and be like, "What's going on." But so often this is what spirals. Someone expresses a need, attachment, injury, defenses come up, and then that activates the other person's defenses, and then you're off in a rupture that no one understands. And it's so painful, it's so painful.
PATRICK CASALE: It was painful for me. And I think if I can speak for you, you probably would say what's painful for you in the 30 minutes that it took place. So-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, totally.
PATRICK CASALE: If that had been prolonged, or we never repaired.
MEGAN NEFF: We never repaired. Can you imagine if our friendship ended in that way?
PATRICK CASALE: No, and it would have been, you know, 99% my fault in that moment, and I would have felt so guilty and ashamed of that for reacting in a way that is just not typically me. And I'm experiencing a lot of grief right now, as is, so like, I'm getting emotional thinking about this. But yeah, I would have had a really hard time living with myself for the next couple months, you know?
MEGAN NEFF: So, that's interesting, because I feel like for some of us our, like, defenses would come up, and the narrative would become one of anger. Like, "Megan Anna is so unfair." But it would have been like, "I fucked up."
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm(affirmative). Probably cursed. I-
MEGAN NEFF: Good, just made you happy.
PATRICK CASALE: Great. I would have went straight shame spiral, because I have enough insight and awareness to understand that that was my emotion that I was projecting onto you, and it wasn't fair for me to do that in that moment. There was, obviously, other contexts that we could have talked through in a different way, but that reaction was mine and not yours to receive, especially, as you were going through the shit that you were going through.
So, yeah, I would have went straight shame spiral. Like, my attachment rupture's typically end in like, significant shame spiral, but also significant, like, pulling away, and not just pulling away from our ability to repair, but just pulling away from life, like existing. And more so in, like deep, dark depression and self-hatred, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean I relate to that deeply. And there's also this, I've lately been wondering if it's, like, kind of connected to OCD, but also, like, it feels like an autistic thing. So, there's some question on a measure, I think, of, like, basically the idea of, if something's a little bit tainted, it's ruined. So, like, if there's a scuff on a boot, it's like, "Oh, those boots are ruined." Or there's a stain on a chart, "That's ruined.
And I've got some of that thinking, and it's easy for that to creep into friendships, but it's, especially, bad when it's like, I've been the one to do something wrong, right? And I was like, "Well, I ruined that friendship, so I just need to throw it away and start over from scratch, where I can be the perfect relational being and not hurt that person at all." Which, of course, never happens. But there is that mindset of like, "Well, that's ruined now, so that goes away."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep. So, anyway, fast forward to now, that was like two months ago, right? Maybe, two months.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and then-
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:04] in March.
MEGAN NEFF: I don't know your feeling, but, like, I felt so much closer to you afterwards.
PATRICK CASALE: Same, no, true.
MEGAN NEFF: Because we could work through it, and we understood it, and we're like, "Wow, our brains are fascinating."
PATRICK CASALE: And, you know, it's another good prime example, right? Where I hate talking on the phone, as I just said. Like, I hate voice memos in general. I hate audio processing because it's so hard for me. Talking on the phone really helped us, like, immediately repair that, opposed to if we continued texting back and forth, I think things would not have ended well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, it would not. And that's such a good like reminder of, like, okay, when people are getting into a hot exchange, first of all, what is it actually about? Is it about the thing, or is there a story, and an injury happening underneath the thing? And then, like, how do you get back to connection?
PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yeah, for sure. Because I think for a lot of you listening, you might think like, "Oh, man, I've had this experience so many times, and I could see myself in it." Or, "I've talked about it with the person and it never repaired." And I think there is a risk of that sometimes happening, right? Of like, pre and post-rupture, you even might have that, like, repair conversation, but really, maybe both people aren't in the same space and able to give the same energy and desire to the repair.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and that's painful, and that's something to grieve when it's like, there's been a rupture, and you can't do all the work. A person can only meet you halfway. And such a big piece of it is this meta-awareness piece we're talking about, of can we get to the conversation underneath the conversation? And when there's not the capacity for that, it does make repair a lot harder, because we get pulled back into the content. And then that makes it so much more difficult to do that repair work. And if someone can't meet us there, they can't meet us there, and that's painful.
PATRICK CASALE: Great. And you met me halfway in that situation, because I kept saying via text, like, knowing that you were getting hotter and hotter, like, via text, can we please just talk about this on the phone? Like, I feel like some of this is getting really misconstrued. But at first, you were like, "No, I'll just talk to you when you get back from Ireland in like a month." And I was like-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and that's my-
PATRICK CASALE: … if we don't talk right now, we will never talk about this.
MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:23:39]. Like, that was my attachment stuff, right? So, I've talked about being avoidant, so I felt hurt in that moment. Then it was like…
PATRICK CASALE: You were like, fuck you.
MEGAN NEFF: We'll sort this like, go to Ireland, we'll sort this. Like, yeah, that was my avoidant coming out.
PATRICK CASALE: And then, eventually you were like, "No, let's do that." And I just felt so… Like you said, honestly, so much closer to you. And Arielle had asked me when I came back in the room. She was like, "Are you okay?" And I didn't really give her the context in that moment. But I know that, like, I would not have been able to sleep that night if we didn't actually speak. Regardless of what the outcome was going to be, I knew like, if we left that conversation in that text form, I was going to ruminate on that and obsess on that all freaking night.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, and like, I would have had stress dreams. So, I would have been this, okay, I'm not proud about this, but, like, I would have been, I think, ruminating in like, a bit of anger of like, and kind of done some of the victim mindset stuff. And then I would have been like, I would have amped that up, and I would have been getting angrier and angrier at you. And then, I would have probably built a really unfair narrative in my head around that, which would have then made that repair work so much more to dig out of and like, catching it right away, and hopping on, and getting to the conversation underneath.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, agreed.
MEGAN NEFF: So, wellness tip number one, like, catch it when your attachment system is activated, get to the conversation underneath, and if it's safe to do so, and there's capacity there, like, connect with the person, but not on the like, content conversation, whatever it is.
I feel like it might be helpful. I'm not going to go into details. I just feel like it might be helpful with people like, what do you mean by content? It became for us about finances in the podcast and like, who'd contributed what? And so, that was the content conversation that like, so if we'd stayed at that content, we weren't actually talking about what was happening. That was the vehicle that our attachment stuff was using.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. And for a lot of you, like you've heard me talk about, I mean, I think we both talk about our own money stuff on here at times, but money is so triggering for me. It brings me back to like gambling addiction days. It brings me back to like self-worth shit. Like, it's so shame-based in so many ways. So, like, yeah, if we would have stayed in that content, we never really would have gotten to the real, like, meat of the issue, or what was actually happening for both of us behind the scenes.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And that's what happens often with these dynamics, is you get pulled into some content. And yes, it's kind of about the content, but typically, that's just like, the signal to whatever's happening underneath.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, wellness tip one, get to the story beneath, know when it's happening, and then, like, if capacity, like, connect. And so, this is also, and this is part of the reflection, because, yeah, that newsletter where I wrote about this was because of the climate we're all living in people's nervous systems are activated, where a lot of us, like our threat signals are all over the place, for good reason. But it means that there's going to be more misunderstandings, because our nervous system is looking for threat signals.
So, something like, I want to take a pause from the podcast, or a partner being like, "No, I don't want to go on that walk with you right now." Like, which maybe at normal base level might be okay. Like, if our nervous systems are looking for threats, we're going to start seeing attachment threats from like neutral stimuli.
PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, yeah. You've kind of talked about this a bit in some recent content that you've put out too, like getting past the content phase and not focusing in on that content phase in regards to how you even react, or people react on social media in situations, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I think so. Wait, say more about what you mean.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think you were, maybe I'm misremembering it, and it could totally be. I thought you had made some content recently about like getting past initial like meaning, because there can be so much like, disagreement, and arguing in autism advocacy spaces.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Like, sometimes we have to, like, give each other grace and like permission to be accountable, and responsive, and apologetic too.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Like, kind of zooming out. Yeah, this is kind of like my thing, Patrick, it's like, always zooming out from the content to be like, what is happening here and what's going to anchor us in understanding. So, yeah, the essay I wrote this last weekend was on, it was definitely a very Megan Anna like ideation, happy place of connecting many different theories, but the idea of putting out a neurodivergent identity development model of like, when we're integrating this new identity, especially, if we're white, especially, if we are later in life identified, there's kind of a typical developmental arc that happens.
And when we're in the early phases, like an immersion phase of like, I feel so connected to autistic pride, and I feel so seen in this, it can be easy when we're in that space to comment in ways that where we might be missing things, where we might hurt other people. Like, for example, you know, saying things like, when RFK is saying terrible things, he's not talking about me as an autistic person, he's talking about others. Like, that kind of thing, which you also talked about in social media, how that's actually really painful to divide ourselves in that way.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep, maybe we'll do an episode on this.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Probably should.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, if today's theme is wellness through interconnection, like it connects of how to… Like, we as a community right now, there's so many painful things happening. And part of what I'm seeing I'm not on there a lot, but part of what I'm seeing is a lot of fracturing. And that's what happens, but it's how do we as community come together, pull together, and also, like, show the world a different way of being?
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. 100%. Yeah, it was that identity arc newsletter you put out and made some posts about, and I thought that was really good. And just the acknowledgement of as you go through your maybe potential discovery phases are going to be different, like, layers to that as well, and different developments, and things you might want to walk back or things you wouldn't say. I think I've said it on here too. Like, I totally, like, at first, bought into, like, the kryptonite superpower narrative and trope. And fast forward to now, I would never say those things. But four years ago, five years ago, I was like, I didn't really know any differently at the time, and I thought I was doing the right thing.
MEGAN NEFF: And that's developmentally appropriate, which is why I love models, because it's not like shame on you, Patrick. It's like, of course you did. That's the like, developmental arc way is you go from, like, not knowing anything about this. Like, oh my gosh, my whole life makes sense, and kind of idealized.
So, I had a conversation with Callie last week, the Black Spectrum Scholar. And one thing they said was have self-compassion for wherever you are in the developmental arc. And in that context, she was speaking on racism, but it would also apply to like ableism, and love that of we actually can't make progress in being antiracist or anti-ableist from a place of shame. We have to do it from a place of self-compassion. And if we see it as this is a developmental arc, then I can more easily have compassion for wherever I am on that arc.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%. And that ties directly into wellness. And I think that arc, right? That ability to have self-compassion, whether it's antiracism, anti-ableism, whatever arc that is, if you're in that shame space, you're much less likely to be involved in community, because you're probably less likely to put opinion, or statement, or fact, or thought out there, because you're so concerned about how it is going to be received opposed to being able to be accountable, apologetic, and learn from mistake, which I think is super important as we're going through some of this trajectory, too, is like being accountable, being apologetic, and truly learning from mistake. Because I think so often we are going to say something that we're like, "Oh, that wasn't exactly landing the way that I intended for it to land."
MEGAN NEFF: Right, that's where it gets into, like, the accountability piece and the learning of shame shuts us down, right? And then, we're not very helpful to the people we've hurt when that happens.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. So, wellness. I think this is a good, like, gateway into whatever this series is going to look like. And…
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Should we talk about that for a minute?
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, we should do that.
MEGAN NEFF: See social ligaments. You still got it.
PATRICK CASALE: One thing that I just have deeply ingrained in who I am, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Like, I like, marvel at people who can do that, because it's not my strength [CROSSTALK 00:33:25]-
PATRICK CASALE: …like, peripheral, keeping an eye on the time, keeping my one active brain cell on conversation.
MEGAN NEFF: You feel engaged to me. Like I feel immersed. And I can tell when I feel immersed in conversation, and I feel I feel like we're both in it.
PATRICK CASALE: We say this so often when we haven't, like, seen each other in person for a while, and then we like, drop into conversation, and it makes me just feel really connected to you.
MEGAN NEFF: Same, same. Like-
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:34:01] texting. I've been in New Zealand. I've been in Ireland. We've been texting. But like, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, that's actually also like, maybe part of wellness and community is like, thinking through how we connect. Because I think it's actually really easy. I avoid synchronous meetings like the plague. But then when they happen, like, even with my team, it's actually I need to work on this, because I do a lot of async meetings where I just send a video. And then, when I actually meet with them, I'm like, "We will generate ideas from that that wouldn't have been generated otherwise."
Or like you and me, we do stay pretty connected. We text, I think, pretty much every day. But this felt experience right now is so qualitatively different. And like I feel a different energy, a different groundedness in my body. But I'm always going to have so much demand avoidance if I have a meeting on my schedule. So, being able to remind myself, yeah, I'm going to have demand avoidance when it's this kind of social interaction. And I also actually know that that kind of social interaction is really important for my wellness.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it is one of those both ends for me as well. I avoid meetings as much as humanly possible. And when I see them on my calendar, I think of every way I can get out of them. I actually canceled a podcast this morning. It was like, "I don't want to, I can't do this right now." Because it was with people I didn't really know. And it would have been a different back and forth. I would have had to drive the ship a lot more. And I just wasn't in that headspace this morning.
But like, I do have to remind myself too, even when my team meetings with my staff at Resilient Mind Counseling like, "I dread meetings." But then when we're all in one space, I'm like, it's kind of nice to see everyone's face and, like, actually be able to speak to you in this capacity. So, yeah, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:35:51].
MEGAN NEFF: So, we don't always want to do the things that are good for us. I think that's a good thing [CROSSTALK 00:35:57]-
PATRICK CASALE: Hashtag wellness.
MEGAN NEFF: …having mine, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, take it from two licensed mental health professionals when we can tell you that it's really sometimes hard to practice what we preach.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm(affirmative). So, actually, I have a, like, colleague… It's interesting, we actually went to the same doctoral program in psychology. And like he was diagnosed in childhood. And it was kind of a big deal for an autistic person to be going through a doctoral program in psychology. So, we briefly knew each other then, but we've reconnected since.
And here is a framework I love. I shared this. I posted it to Neurodivergent Insights. I think this feels like a very autistic thing, the ability to just like just, like, conceptualize ideas in ways that are like, "Oh yeah. Now that makes sense."
But he talks about self-care as like, two types. They're self-soothing. So, like, when we're like, in active distress or sensory overwhelm, it's the things like it feels good. So, maybe that might be binge watching Netflix, it might be, like, sensory soothing. I mean, for me, it'd be a hot shower. I know showers are like hated for me autistic people. So, self-soothing, it's easy to do. It feels good to do it. And then there's self-nourishment, which we have a little bit more friction around doing, but it's the things that's good for us. So, it might be like making that green smoothie, trying to get more nutrient dense food into us, doing the movement, prioritizing sleep.
And I just find that framework for self-care so helpful. And then, the idea is, like, if we have too much of one and out of the other, then we might feel off balance. So, the question of, like, okay, which, like, maybe I need more self-soothing in my life. Or actually, maybe I've gone so much to self-soothing and I actually need some of that self-nourishment. Like, I'm actually going to meet with Patrick and see my friend, even though I've got demand avoidance, right? That kind of thing.
PATRICK CASALE: That's a great framework. I like that a lot. Yeah, that self-soothing piece comes much more naturally for me. For sure, I think I default into it-
MEGAN NEFF: Same.
PATRICK CASALE: …sometimes to the point where it's like, "This is maybe becoming problematic for this week or this month." But I just allow it to be that way.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, this is a month I think a lot of us need a lot of self-soothing. And you, especially.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. But that self-nourishment piece really trying to keep that in perspective when we look at our calendars, or when we think about what we say yes and no to. And it goes back to like something you say a lot, and I can't remember how you frame it. It's like that cost benefit analysis piece you've talked about, like, with, okay, if I go do this activity with the family, it's a high values event, it's going to cost me a significant amount, right?
It's kind of in that regard, looking at it from that lens for self-nourishment for me, sometimes when I'm like, "Okay, I should go take the dog for a walk around the neighborhood and get out of my house, because I haven't left the house in five days." And, like, I resist it, I resist it, I resist it. And then, I do it for like 20 minutes. I'm like, "Do you feel a little bit better? Fuck."
MEGAN NEFF: Like, you were right? Yeah, yeah. So, that feedback loop, which I would also tap and put in the meta awareness bucket, is so important because, especially, if it is a higher friction activity, there's not going to be as much momentum or motivation to do it. So, then when it's like, "Okay, that did feel better."
So, same thing for me. Like, I recently got a walking treadmill, and my default would be to use while I work. My default would be like, "Oh, it's more comfortable on the couch." But I know my energy is better if I use the walking treadmill. I know I feel better. And then, when I am having that resistance, I'll remind myself, "Okay, yesterday, you were in the spot, and you did it and you felt better."
PATRICK CASALE: Right. That's a good way to, like, reframe back to that, and anchor back into that, too. To like, say, like, "Okay. Like, here's some actual evidence. You did feel better, literally, yesterday when you did this thing." Yeah, I like that as well.
MEGAN NEFF: So, okay, I'm now I'm feeling the antsy time, or we are going to wrap this conversation up. So, I have two thoughts. One, I want to, like, hear what you're hoping for that we'll explore in this series. That's one. And then two, I thought maybe I'd mention Substack, because we've been talking about community so-
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, go for it.
MEGAN NEFF: …much and our thoughts around that. Which one do you want to-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:40:25]. Is that what's happening?
MEGAN NEFF: No, no, no. First, I'm saying we have two bullet list things to talk about until my brain is not itchy [CROSSTALK 00:40:37]-
PATRICK CASALE: I was just excited to hear that-
MEGAN NEFF: …then we can close the episode.
PATRICK CASALE: …because it's always a fun experience for me.
MEGAN NEFF: It is a fun experience. Hi, if you like us go like us.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, so yes, number one, what am I hoping to get out of this? It's not even just about the wellness-
MEGAN NEFF: We'll explore, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think I just want to have, I'm excited to kind of do this podcast in a way that is kind of the epitome of like what wellness is, in a lot of ways, which is boundary setting, asking for what you need, doing things in a way that maximizes your energy. So, things like, if we're going to batch seasons in like a week and a half, two weeks and then have extended time off, I am personally excited for that to say, like, hell yes. I love batching for that reason.
Also, I want to really honor what you want and need. And for me, wellness is sometimes that, like, doing for others and friendship and acknowledging, like, what someone you care about wants and needs in relationship. That for me is really important. And then, I like just tangible tips, strategies, action tips that I'll never implement in my own life, but it's fun to talk about.
MEGAN NEFF: It's fun to give other people advice.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'll leave these meetings and be like, "Yeah, you know what? That was a really good point." And then, yeah, on the couch watching Lord of the Rings or basketball.
MEGAN NEFF: I feel like such a contradiction being in the like, I guess I am pretty much in the wellness space of like, yeah. Like, a lot of this stuff I totally struggled to implement. I struggled to implement it consistently. I would say.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, same for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, which is very ADHD. And then, we have to, again, having self-compassion, like, for that, of like, yeah, that is going to be hard.
PATRICK CASALE: 100%. What about you?
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I love what you said about, like, just embodying the wellness and almost treating it as like a living lab. I love that kind of stuff where it's like, let's try this and talk about it and reflect on it.
Like, community wasn't the first thing that came into my mind when we were like, "Let's talk about neurodivergent wellness." But I love that it did, because it has been on my mind a lot this year. And so, I'm just kind of excited this conversation's felt really alive, and I'm just excited to see what comes of it. I don't yet have a bullet list of like, "Okay, we'll do an episode on this, this and this." But I'm sure it'll come. So, yeah, I'm just excited that we're having this conversation right now, because it really matters.
And one of the things we talked about was we're not going to do guests for this season, which you and I both have noticed that feels like a… We appreciate it. We learn so much from our guests, and it is a heavier cognitive, energetic lift for both of us.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: So, I'm excited just to, like, nerd out, and talk with you a lot over the next two weeks.
PATRICK CASALE: You keep texting me like, "You're going to get sick of me. You're going to get sick of me." I'm like, "Okay."
MEGAN NEFF: Did I?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. You've said that-
MEGAN NEFF: Well, it's because I'm like, really in a like boppy energy right now, and you're not. And if I was low and someone I was in relationship had a lot of energy, that, to me would be sensory overwhelming.
PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate your trying to look out for me from that perspective. I don't know, am I ever in a boppy energy, just curiosity-wise? Maybe in more than now, but not probably like up, up.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I don't know that I've seen you up, up.
PATRICK CASALE: Me neither. It would be nice.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, maybe it'll rub off. Maybe my boppy energy will rub off on you over the next few weeks.
PATRICK CASALE: So, Substack. What do you think?
MEGAN NEFF: So, Substack. So, over the last couple years we've been like, "We should do this. We should do this. We should do this for Divergent Conversations." And one of them is like, do we start a Patreon? Do we start a whole, like, a big community? And then, my brain always wants to make it bigger, and then we don't do anything. We're really fun to work together.
But like, another thing that came with, like, the website migration, was I was just like, "I just want to get on Substack, because it feels like a different culture." If my website's going to go down, like it feels, I don't know. I just felt the pull. And I've really enjoyed the community and the culture there.
And so, one quote I've shared quite a bit. I can't remember if I've said it here yet or not, probably not, because we haven't recorded, it's from Adrienne Maree Brown. I'm reading Emergent Strategy right now, which is all about transformational justice and community. And there's a quote in there about what if instead of building mile wide, inch deep communities, we built, inch wide, mile deep, communities. So, been thinking a lot about community. And I know a lot of folks I think have had interest around like Divergent Conversations, and where do I continue this conversation? But we've also both been very burnt out.
So anyways, we've talked about starting a Substack where we're not exactly sure what it'll look like, but it would be a place where people could continue the conversation in community. So, it's not just them listening to us have a conversation.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think that feels like almost the most natural transition point in this like container, because, like you said, we've floated a lot of ideas around. Some of them we, like, kind of quarter the way, maybe started a little bit, and then didn't start. So, it does feel like a natural place for these conversations, and connections, and communities to continue to grow, because it's really hard for both Megan Anna and I to respond to messages on Instagram, or on email, or all of the places. And although we really appreciate all of the love, and support, and acknowledgement, and questions, and all the things, it's just too many places to be checking and responding. And so, it would be much easier to do so in a nice, like, cultivated, curated community in that way.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay. So, we are so glad to be back, and we're glad that you're with us, listening, and supporting, and hopefully staying as safe as possible right now. And Divergent Conversation episodes are on all major platforms and YouTube on Fridays. And you can like, download, subscribe, and share.
