Episode 103: Navigating Core Beliefs and Self-Worth
Apr 24, 2025
Show Notes
Struggling with feelings of not being “good enough” or questioning your legitimacy, even as your achievements grow, is a common but often isolating experience for neurodivergent professionals.
In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, discuss the complexities of “not good enough” schemas, imposter syndrome, and the compulsive drive for achievement, especially within neurodivergent communities. They examine how these beliefs can shape careers, relationships, and self-perception, while sharing personal experiences about preparing for significant milestones (like TEDx talks), returning to therapy, and the ongoing process of emotional growth and acceptance.
Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:
- Hear honest, relatable examples of how neurodivergent professionals navigate impostor syndrome and self-doubt in both personal and professional contexts, highlighting that these struggles are shared, even by those seen as accomplished or confident.
- Learn about concrete strategies, from parts work (IFS) to timeline exercises, that Megan and Patrick use to ground themselves when imposter feelings or perfectionism threaten to take over, along with reflections on identifying core drives beneath anxiety and workaholism.
- Discover how vulnerability and shared human experience can undo the isolation that comes with not feeling “enough,” and explore the value of seeking help, building supportive relationships, and allowing for imperfection within neurodivergent journeys.
If you’ve ever felt like you have to prove yourself or questioned your worth, this episode offers new insights to approach those persistent, deeply rooted beliefs.
🎙️Listen to more episodes of the Divergent Conversations Podcast here
🎙️Spotify
🎙️Apple
🎙️YouTube Music
▶️ YouTube
Thanks to Our Sponsors: iACTcenter, Jane, & The Autistic Burnout Workbook
✨ IACTcenter:
The iACTcenter is an elite global ICF-accredited coach education and training program designed to train people to become confident, skilled, professional ADHD life coaches. They prepare aspiring coaches to make a living while making a difference in the lives of ADHDers and other neurodivergent people. Learn more at iACTcenter.com.
Julien Mussi, our student, passed away unexpectedly during our inaugural class in 2015. We offer Julien Mussi Scholarships to honor his passion for helping others. Visit: iACTcenter.com/scholarship
✨ Jane:
Jane is a clinic management software and EMR designed to be an extra set of helping hands in your health and wellness business. Available online and on any device, Jane has branded online booking, scheduling, insurance billing, customizable documentation templates and online forms, integrated payments, telehealth, and more — wrapped up in one beautiful package that even your patients/clients will love. Backed by our unlimited human support available by phone, email, and chat (even on Saturdays!), Jane is here to help you get back to the work you love. Get 2 months off new Jane subscriptions when you use code DIVERGENTCONVERSATIONS at signup. Visit: jane.app/mentalhealth-us
✨ The Autistic Burnout Workbook:
I'm Dr. Megan Anna Neff, owner of Neurodivergent Insights, and I'm excited to announce the release of my book, The Autistic Burnout Workbook. I'm running a special deal for those who support my work. After you order, you will get a coupon code that you can use toward our store for the same amount. For example, the workbook costs $18.99, so after purchase, you'd get a credit of $18.99 to use in our digital shop or in our Etsy shop, which gets you another digital workbook of your choosing for free. This is technically a pre-order promotion that was originally set to end on March 10th, but for listeners of the podcast, I'm going to extend this deal, so if you buy the book in the next month, you can also redeem this special. Thank you for supporting my work. It means so much to me and I hope that you will find this a helpful resource for you as you continue to build a life that is a bit more resilient to autistic burnout.
- Use the following link to grab this offer: neurodivergentinsights.notion.site/17ea17a4bb8b8034ab2bf9b03c560a64
- After this deal ends, you can use this link to purchase this workbook: simonandschuster.com/books/The-Autistic-Burnout-Workbook/Megan-Anna-Neff/9781507223062
Transcript
PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.
MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.
PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. It's been a while. You've probably been listening to a lot of our re-released episodes as we've taken a break. And today, we are recording a fun topic that is probably afterwards I'm going to be like, "This episode felt like a therapy session."
MEGAN NEFF: I love those episodes, actually.
PATRICK CASALE: Me too.
MEGAN NEFF: The ones where like, I want to… I mean, I imagine our listeners can feel it. I know I do. Like, there's a energy that we sometimes drop into. Typically, sometimes we can do it when we're interviewing. Typically, it's when it's you and me. And it's where we're talking about something, but we're in it, we're metabolizing it, we're dropped in.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree. And you know, I always feel good when we do these solo episodes because it allows us to kind of reconnect. And it always feels good to me when I'm like, "Damn, okay, Megan and I still feel like connected despite not seeing each other often or talking often." Because interviews, admittedly, are hard.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: I always think like having that third person, or yeah, even potential fourth person makes it… the dynamics always shift and change, and they kind of feel just a bit different, that it doesn't always come naturally.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I know when we're like hitting record before having a guest there's a like, "Okay, I've got to be on." And then, I'm in my cognitive part of my brain a bit more less in my, like, experience of is this conversational enough? Like, thinking through how to word a question. Yeah. So, I get out of the experience a bit more. Also, I enjoy them. I've learned a lot from guests we've had, but it is a very different experience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Different dynamic, for sure. And I think, yeah, anyway, we're diverging before we even get to our topic.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Let's lay like the foundation or set the stage. And the stage is that today is February 10th.
MEGAN NEFF: 10th.
PATRICK CASALE: And I am giving a TEDx talk on February 22nd, which is horrifying. And you and I have texted and talked a lot about this experience. And my exact words to you via text were, "I think feeling undeserving or not good enough is a core belief, but also a driving force. Kind of a weird paradox."
And you said I'm just going to quote you. "Ha, yes. I know that paradox well. And you're right. It makes for a lot of mind fuck moments. Let me put myself out there to prove I'm deserving. Oh, it's actually happening. I am not deserving…"
MEGAN NEFF: I love how you're like, "I'm going to quote you. I'm going to quote you constantly Megan Anna."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. You know, it emphasizes the reality of the point and the experience, for sure. Definitely, where I'm at, I know you and I have talked offline about this in general about just me stepping more into like neurodivergent content creation, especially, around autism, ADHD stuff, feeling like I don't know enough, I'm not well-researched enough, being very concerned about saying the wrong thing because it's just a part of it. And then, I told you that I didn't think this experience or this talk was like significant or that big of a deal. And I think that was more of like a defense mechanism.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I was wondering because I was like, "Yeah, a TEDx talk is a big deal so is that you wanted to minimize or yeah, I could see how it could be a defensive or like, like if it doesn't go well, it's not that big of a deal." Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's just TEDx Colorado Springs. Like, it's not a big deal. So that's the way my brain is preparing myself.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, it's actually a helpful, right, some of these cognitive reframes. Like, we can, you know, dish on CBT, but some of these reframes are helpful of like, okay, so yeah, if it burns and crashes, then it won't go viral, so then, like, it won't be seen by thousands and thousands of people.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. When you say it like that. And then, also, if it does go viral, the amount of mental energy that it takes when something goes viral, like you and I both know that experience of the commentary, potential critique, feedback, and then the dopamine rush, all mixed into one can make it almost like hard to step away from it while it's happening. I know you have a really good mechanism, which is just like, "I'm just going to turn off the comments and I'm not dealing with this." And trying to get better at that. Haven't reached that plateau yet or that level.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, ignore.
PATRICK CASALE: Ignore, ignore.
MEGAN NEFF: If I don't see it, it doesn't exist.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Head and sand, ignore, never look at it again.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I know. That works for some things better than other things in the world.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. You know, when we were texting about that and I think we had just gotten done recording the episode where we were debriefing Belize. And you were talking about this idea of, "I don't know if I would connect with people if I didn't have a role, if I wasn't supporting them. Would people want to connect with me?"
So, I feel like there's a similar thread here or a similar energy, this idea of feeling undeserving and not good enough as a core belief, but also a core driving force. Like, I kind of wanted to dip into that because I think so many, so many neuro divergent people probably, it might not be as public as you and I experience that, but experience that of there is this core belief or this core schema, this narrative we have that I'm not good enough. So, we frantically work to prove that's not true. So, it's a driving force, but it's a… What's the word? It's a fantasy, it's a myth. There's a word, but I'm not capturing it. It's an illusion. We're chasing this illusion. If I do enough, all of a sudden, I'm going to know that I'm good enough.
PATRICK CASALE: Right.
MEGAN NEFF: But we're chasing it. It's like, kind of like the hedonic treadmill, but hedonic like trying to be good enough of trying to say, if I just reach that thing, then I'll know I'm good enough. But because it's so tied to core schema, it's an illusion that many of us end up burning out chasing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. That's perfectly put. And I'm sure some of you listening are like, "Well, that just sounds like capitalism in a nutshell." And it's so much more than just living in like a capitalist grind culture or society. It really does feel foundational in my being when I'm like, it just doesn't feel like I'm qualified enough, good enough, competent enough, et cetera. Some of that is legitimate insecurity. Some of that feels like core schema. Some of that is probably like childhood wounding. And some of it is societal messaging all wrapped into one.
But then I have like this complex nuance approach to it where I'm like, but you're also like one of the most privileged people in our country and in the world when you think about the fact that you have a master's degree, you're a cishet white man, and I have a lot of privilege. So, combating the insecurity/not good enough experience is kind of a mindfuck for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, with the privilege piece, is there like guilt of I shouldn't be feeling this way because of this privilege? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, majorly for sure.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, all of that tied up into approaching this talk about late-in-life autism discovery or adult autism discovery and just being like, do I even know enough to talk about this subject? And in reality, like, really talking about this from my own perspective, and my own experience, and my own viewpoint, acknowledging like, you're not going to get every piece of information into a 12-15 minute talk. Like that's just not-
MEGAN NEFF: And that would be a terrible talk if you're like-
PATRICK CASALE: It'd be awful.
MEGAN NEFF: …let me pack all of the autistic, ADHD information into a 12-minute talk. Sorry, my voice, would be a terrible talk, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: It would be awful, it would be awful.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. So, you'll laugh at this maybe, but like, they messaged everyone and they said, "Send us like a confidence sheet that you can have kind of in your vision, in your vantage point with like seven bullet points in large font."
I showed Arielle the other day and she's like, "This is horrifying. Like, it looks like a ransom letter." And the way I wrote it, it's just like little phrases or code words or even symbols for me to like pick up on and think about, and jog my memory. So, I was looking at that, laughing about it while I was…
MEGAN NEFF: I kind of want to see a picture of this.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, is it like, if you get stuck, you can look at this piece of paper and it'll jog your memory? Is that…
PATRICK CASALE: I think that's the goal. Yeah. They'll have it like maybe projected further down, like at the back and you'll be able to use it as a reference point [CROSSTALK 00:13:14]-
MEGAN NEFF: As a prompt.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Because you have, I know sometimes they'll have like a teleprompter at the bottom of this stage. Do they have a teleprompter or do they not do that? Because [CROSSTALK 00:13:28]-
PATRICK CASALE: I don't think so. Yeah, I don't-
MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, that's your like, if you get stuck.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And literally, it looks like a ransom letter. I'll send it to you later. It's pretty [CROSSTALK 00:13:39].
MEGAN NEFF: That's so funny. I'm sure it's amazing. Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. You know, it makes sense in my mind, which is all that matters. And you know, I've given a lot of talks and I improvise almost all of them. It's a strength of mine. I don't often script. Well, I don't ever script, I should say don't often. I never script. So, this is really challenging. And you and I were kind of texting about like the ways our brains process and retain information and they're very different in that way.
MEGAN NEFF: I know you're getting a taste of like the obsessive when you're describing, like, you're like, all I'm doing is this talk. I'm listening to it or I'm practicing it, and I'm like, "Yeah, Patrick, welcome to my world. This is how I prepare for talks. That's why I accept like two talks a year."
PATRICK CASALE: It feels like a lot of mental energy that goes into that process. So, I send you a lot of empathy for that. My dogs are probably sick of hearing it. I'm just doing it on repeat. And then, he just looks up at me every time I say like the specific word, like, "Are you really talking about this again?"
MEGAN NEFF: And that is a hard part about a memorized talk like this is you have to memorize it to the point that it gets in your body so you can do it while on autopilot, but then you've got to get emotionally connected to it while delivering it. And that is always like a hard balance to find of be able to do on autopilot, but not to actually do it on autopilot.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I think, you know, the lack of autopilot when I'm speaking, I have that pretty nailed down. Because I really will tap into how uncomfortably anxious I am in that moment. The difference may be that I may not name it on that stage comparatively just because I don't know. I'm so fearful of like going off script. But I do quote you in it and I told you that with your consent. And like, I think it's a really good talk and I've practiced it on people and everyone always ends up crying, so I feel like I'm on the right track.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, tears feel like the right track for a TEDx talk.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tears is an engagement, you know? Like, that feels right. Making small jokes and every time I do it, people laughing. I'm like, "Okay, that works." I was telling you off-screen that someone mentioned you were going to be there and I got really nervous. I was like, "Oh no. Now I'm even more nervous than I was before." And you were like, "I'm not coming to that."
MEGAN NEFF: Okay, but you know, I'm listening to it?
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. I do think you are in the crowd though. And I could pick out your face. I'd be like, how is Megan reacting right now? What would I be thinking?
MEGAN NEFF: Why? Like, so you have like lots of people coming. So, what is it about our relationship where you're like, I mean, I know you've said it before like you respect kind of who I am in this space. And I've read your script and given you feedback, so like, what would it be about me being there that would make you anxious?
PATRICK CASALE: Megan doesn't approve of this. Like what if Megan…
MEGAN NEFF: I already have. I've been like, replace that start with this start, and then you're good to go.
PATRICK CASALE: And then I say this line and I look at Megan and you're just like, "What the fuck? What is he talking about?" I don't know. It's completely irrational. And it's like driven by, I think, some of that core belief stuff that we're talking about of like not being good enough. Or it just not being worth being out in the world, you know? So, I think it's really fascinating.
And then what you talked about, you mentioned that, or I mentioned it being a driving force and you kind of put it into the other words of like, but then it does drive you to try to get more opportunities to prove almost in a way that you are good enough, but your brain simultaneously like to prove that you're still not good enough. It's a wild ride.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:17:44]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:17:44].
MEGAN NEFF: I mean, that's the trap right there. And I think you've said something a couple times I think is really important. Like, it's irrational, right?
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MEGAN NEFF: And I think irrational thoughts very much frustrate autistic people, I think, but we have plenty of them. And that's how core schemas work, right? It's this belief that is so deeply baked in that it's not like we can rationally be like, "No, I am good enough. Here's why." And it's a driving force, right? It's how do we rework that? How do we understand the pain that is beneath that? How do we learn how to sit with that? I think a lot of it's also about emotional avoidance. Like, you know, I've talked really openly about how I've returned to therapy and part of it is working through workaholism, and this is it for me, right? Is let me prove that I actually do earn the space I occupy on this world.
And what is it about when I'm still, when I'm not producing, when I'm not being productive, when I'm not doing something meaningful, what is it about that experience that is so intolerable for me to sit with, right? That's the work psychologically I'm engaged in this year of… And for a long time, I was like, well, that's ADHD, so that makes sense. And I'm like, okay, yeah. ADHD is in there, the restlessness, but like, damn it, there's more.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It's much deeper than that, right. And you've mentioned on here before, like earning your, I think you used the phrase social currency or social capital.
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: Almost like, I have to earn the space that I take up. So, I have to be helpful or provide resources, or education, or knowledge, or support. And I bet you that almost every… If you're listening and if you're a mental health professional, there's a part of you that feels that way to some degree. Because I think a lot of mental health professionals often go into the work to almost heal themselves through the work that they do subconsciously, yet doing the work, you become a better therapist and you're able to kind of remove yourself from that.
But I think when you're taking into account like an autism diagnosis or any disabling condition where you are constantly made aware of how different you are or how hard you have to work to fit in, it becomes almost like illuminated in a different vantage point when you're constantly like, "I have to prove myself to be a part of. I have to do something to be a part of." Because, you know, at the core feeling so different than the status quo.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, right. We've had so many micro and macro experiences, likely telling us we aren't good enough. There's an interesting, I kind of want to dip my head back into it when I have capacity, but one of the workbooks I wrote a year or two ago was on personality. Oh no, I think this was the CBT one or like brain stuff.
Anyways, I went through the core schemas. Schema therapy is really interesting. It's where you look at, there's kind of some core schemas many of us develop early in life. And so, I walked through some of the common core schemas and then I talked about how neurodivergent experiences might predispose us to some of these core schemas. And a lot of the core schemas that get talked about are around, if you're inferior, I cannot say this word, inferiority. Or like, just ways that we might feel broken.
And it was a really interesting exercise for me to think through the feedback we often get, right? There's some interesting research about negative feedback and ADHDers, how, like, statistically they tend to get significantly more, we're autistic people, social feedback when we've misstepped and all of these things, whether it's correction, or whether it's like, stop doing that, or you're being obnoxious, or your needs are too much. There's all of these messages that many of us got in childhood because we didn't understand ourselves, our families didn't understand us. And absolutely, that gets baked in, in really complex ways.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, big time. And thinking about it from a micro perspective, right? If if it's happening on a small cellular level, it's almost like these little, like shocks to your system every time there's a mention of you not doing something correctly, or being too much, or overstepping, or reading that wrong, or not understanding. It's just like builds, builds, builds, builds, builds. And when you're not really aware of it, its hard to have an understanding of why all of a sudden this feels-
MEGAN NEFF: Why am I reacting at a 10 when this situation's a four? Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: Totally.
MEGAN NEFF: No, I think this is one of the most helpful things that psychological work helps people do is identify what are your, I don't love the word triggers, but I like the language of raw spots, which comes from emotionally focused therapy. Like what are your raw spots? So, like, ooh, when that gets hit, yeah. It's going to pull an eight or nine reaction, even if the interaction I'm having is like a two or three. Because It's hitting on a part that has a lot of history, that there's a lot of stories around. So, like, like for you around this talk, there's a lot of, I imagine, it's hitting on a raw spot of like, am I good enough? Am I good enough to be the one giving this TEDx talk? It seems like that's part of the raw spot that I was hearing when we were texting about it.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. Totally. One of the raw spots. My image now in my head is like a dog with a lot of like raw spots or like sores on their stomach from like, licking themselves too much. So, I appreciate the visual [CROSSTALK 00:23:28]-
MEGAN NEFF: That's a great image.
PATRICK CASALE: Hot spots I think is what they call those in dogs. But yeah, I think that's true. Like it is a raw spot or an area of vulnerability. And I think it's weird. We talk about this a lot on here, but it is weird when you have any sort of audience or following and you're putting yourself into positions to constantly feel vulnerable over and over and over again. It almost is like, is this a compulsive act? Is this like self-destructive to constantly put yourself in situations that are going to potentially really impact your wellbeing from a stress perspective? And then, I think there is also the flip side where there's ego involved. And there's dopamine to it all too.
MEGAN NEFF: Well, and even for people who don't have audiences, there's ways that this, we could call it like a compulsive pattern shows up of I'm going to put myself up to take lead on that project, or I'm going to put myself to like, I'll volunteer to help them. Like, there's other ways that this could show up where it's maybe compulsive helping or compulsive, "I'm going to do something that I don't believe I can do to try to like assuage the part of me that's telling me I can't believe it." But then I'm going to have a lot of stress and anxiety. And then I'm going to do it. And I'm still going to have that belief. It's still going to be there. Like, that didn't fix the belief. Yeah, yeah.
I am curious. I don't want to derail too much, but I am curious, it's bopping in the back of my head, if you've done Enneagram stuff? Like, I'm an Enneagram three and that's a, like, achievement is the driving force for an Enneagram three. So, I'm curious, or do you do Enneagram stuff?
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, I do. I'm one. I want to just name that I really love the word assuage that you used.
MEGAN NEFF: I was really impressed I said it.
PATRICK CASALE: I was impressed that you said it. You got it out.
MEGAN NEFF: I know. I was like, the phonetics on this might not come out, but it worked. I don't know if I could repeat it.
PATRICK CASALE: It a great word. So, yeah, Enneagram stuff, I've done a lot of it actually. I would say when I first moved here in 2011, massive, massive masking/people pleasing. I got identified as an Enneagram two, which I'm certainly not. I more recently come to terms with being an Enneagram six, with a seven wing, was going back and forth of like, am I a seven? Am I a six? Some people would classify me as a three, but if you really knew me, it really doesn't fit because achievement is never really the driving force for me. But six makes sense. And I started like deep diving that with my former therapist and a good friend in town who does a lot of Enneagram work.
And I text her and I was like, so I was talking on Enneagram with my therapist and she was like, "Wait, let me answer before you say it. Like you're a six." And I was like, "Oh, okay. I thought seven." And she was like, "Nope, you're six. But you can come to terms with that however you'd like to." And did a lot of deep diving on that. And yeah, I feel pretty comfortable with that.
MEGAN NEFF: That actually does make sense. I don't know that I would've, like, that would have been the first thing I picked out for you, but when you say I'm like, "Oh yeah, that, that does make sense."
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. The loyalist makes sense. Being kind of staunch in belief also gets me into trouble. But I do think like leaning towards a seven when I'm in like a healthy space and I'm like, ooh, romanticism, and ideas, and travel, and creativity. And then, like, I never really looked at what a five is actually. So, I couldn't even tell you what the other side of it is. But yeah, that's always made sense to me.
MEGAN NEFF: That makes sense. A five is like that kind of intellectual. I actually thought I was a five for a long time. Like, getting to, or I haven't been fresh on it for a while, but a lot of curiosity, a lot of meaning through kind of intellectual discovery and exploration.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And I think a lot of those do, you know, obviously, when you look at stuff like that, a lot of it, you can take a lot of it and say, "Oh, that's applicable, that's applicable." And then really looking at like, what is the driving force here and what's the big fear here?
MEGAN NEFF: One that, oh, sorry.
PATRICK CASALE: I don't know what I was going to say, so go ahead.
MEGAN NEFF: I think that's why I thought about it. Because It's about, yeah, what is the core drive, which that's how we started this conversation. This idea of the core drive being I'm not good enough.
And actually, it's interesting that you are a six because that can also show up in relationships. And that's what you were talking about the last time we recorded, the post-Belize of, if I'm not supporting the person, right? Am I good enough to connect with? And so, the, am I good enough that can move us toward compulsive work? Like, for me can also move us toward compulsive, like being compulsively available to people, being compulsively helpful and it's all about, let me scratch this itch if I'm not good enough. But the more we scratch the itch doesn't magically go away.
PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. It almost like spreads like poison ivy. And it's interesting that that is at the, like, foundation for so many of us. And I can like definitely define that definitively for myself where I'm like, yeah, of course, it makes sense to, like, have to prove that you are good enough. And then, the flip side is like, and having to feel like you have to do things to ensure that you're proving your worth, whether it be responding, which I am always overly responsive working on that, being available, being helpful, providing information, you know, putting yourself into, like you said, like leadership roles, task-oriented roles because the reality is if you really examine that and step back, what's at that core? And the core is like, but if I'm not helpful or if I'm not available, why wouldn't anyone want to have connection with me? That's really what a lot typically comes back to for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: But, you know, I am starting with a new therapist on Thursday.
MEGAN NEFF: How are you feeling about that? I went back to therapy. I went back to my old therapist. I went back last Thursday.
PATRICK CASALE: How did that go? And we were texting about it offline.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. It went well. It was interesting because, you know, I started with this therapist when I was in grad school, and then, the last couple years I worked with him, we were mostly doing telehealth. But I went in person. And so, it brought me back to like graduate school self. And so, it was really interesting just to occupy those memories of, you know, pre-discovery, pre-COVID, I was a very different person. Actually, after I reached out to him to come back, then I had a lot of like, "Do I really want to do this?" Like resistance.
But yeah, it was good to be back. It's someone I trust a great deal. He like understands my inner worlds. Walked through the, like, discovery and diagnosis and kind of everything that was coming up for me around that. So, I still have some resistance around, like, time scarcity of any time I invest in anything, it means I'm not investing in something else, in 10 other things. And given like all of the health challenges that my family has, when I invest in any medical commitment, all of a sudden, I'm like, "But I should be doing X, Y, Z, Z to the four." Like, I should be doing all these other things. You know, but I'm sitting in that resistance of like, this is interesting. What's this about? Yeah. So, overall it feels good to be back.
PATRICK CASALE: Good. And this person you had mentioned before is like psychodynamic or psychoanalytic trained, right?
MEGAN NEFF: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:31:54] oriented.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: That's cool. And it's probably interesting to do the timeline. Like, oh, this is where I was when I was seeing this person to now and what's going on in my world. It's interesting, right? Where you're saying, I really want to work on the workaholism piece. So, I noticed this resistance coming up because time scarcity and all the other things I could be doing. So, sounds like it's the perfect timing for this in that regard.
I am feeling ambivalent. I think because I had reached out to a bunch of therapists prior or right after Hurricane Helene here in Asheville. And I was really struggling in that moment. I probably needed some, like, honestly like acute trauma therapy and I was being way too rigid and specific about what I would-
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, you had a list. You were like [CROSSSTALK 00:32:45]-
PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:32:45]-
MEGAN NEFF: …entrepreneur needs to be autistic, can't be impacted by Helene.
PATRICK CASALE: Yep. It was a long list. How many of those people read that list and then responded completely differently? Almost all of them. Which, you know, definitely made me have resistance about anyone. But that's why I started that back in October. Fast forward four months, I'm like, damn, a whole nother set of life and challenges has arisen. And I want to talk more about like how impacted I am on a daily basis by justice sensitivity, pattern recognition, hyper-focus on things, doom scrolling, like rage posting, you know, all the things that I spend all hours of my day doing. So, it's interesting. We'll see what we talk about on Thursday.
And it's also hard for me, you know, as someone who does a lot of, like, traveling for work to find consistency in therapy or find consistency in anything. Like, I noticed with my physical therapist until I went to Belize, was seeing them pretty consistently. After Belize, haven't seen them a single time. I've canceled on them twice already in the last like month. And it's just interesting for me how disruptive travel is on a schedule when you want reliability and consistency to be like, yes, I can meet you on Thursday and then I can't meet you for like three weeks. So, it's hard in that regard.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that would be hard. I think part of deepening that conversation really is the consistency of, yeah, so that would be hard. Absolutely.
PATRICK CASALE: And I [CROSSTALK 00:34:29]-
MEGAN NEFF: I've noticed, oh, go ahead.
PATRICK CASALE: …new relationships, like new therapeutic relationships, I hate that. You know, like an intake appointment, I don't know, I just don't enjoy that experience and will inevitably leave that session thinking like, "I don't want to see this person again."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. Intakes are hard, especially, if there's pressure of like, somehow, I have to download all of the context of this information. Actually, really that was one of the reasons I liked the therapist I worked with for several years and I'm back with is in the intake he said something like, and right, I don't know if this is what he does for everyone or if he sensed something about me based on, I did fill out intake paperwork, something about like, I sensed in a way it'd be comforting for me to go through a list of questions and ask you, but I almost don't want to do that. Like, so we just like organically open into a conversation. That's not the exact wording, but it wasn't, and again, psychodynamics. But it wasn't like a structured intake, it was more exploratory and even of like what was coming up for me around like not doing a structured like, here here's my life context.
I mean, we found our way obviously, because we ended up doing good work. But yeah, the structured intake can feel like a lot of pressure, especially, if we're putting the pressure on ourselves of I've got to download, you know, 30 years of history to this new person.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Not a fan. I take almost like an atypical approach to things medical. Like, I know a lot of autistic friends and colleagues who have very, very lengthy responses and very well thought out thorough responses to almost every question that comes up on an intake questionnaire, whether it be medical or mental health. And I want them to be as short as possible. Like I am starting to realize that I think I probably have a PDAer profile in a lot of ways and a simple like, answer these questions for something you are pursuing and off and asking like for help with. And I'm like, "No, I don't want to do any of that." I'll put a lot of NAs or a lot of like not applicables, or very like one-word answer to things. Like, that would probably be much more helpful if I did the opposite, but can't bring myself to do it. But she does listen to this podcast, so I'm sure she'll [CROSSTALK 00:38:52]-
MEGAN NEFF: I was just say you mentioned that. Yeah, yeah, that would be interesting. I wonder if she will continue to listen, what the two of you will decide there, because I could imagine that could be complicated.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure, for sure. So, you know, we'll see how that goes, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: I'm also realizing we're both working. So, I'm working cross neurotype. You aren't. But we're both working cross-sex with therapists and I tried a lot of female therapists and it did not work for me. It wasn't until I found a man. Have you always worked with, because I know your past therapist was a woman too. Have you always worked with women?
PATRICK CASALE: I've had a lot of therapists in my life and I think I've had one or two male therapists in my life. And the relationship never lasts very long. Maybe like a month and then-
MEGAN NEFF: Interesting.
PATRICK CASALE: …I'm over it and want to move on.
MEGAN NEFF: Huh?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it is interesting.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. That's interesting.
PATRICK CASALE: I think that this person is autistic or ADHD. So, we'll see how that goes. I think I feel optimistic. They checked almost all of my boxes. They read my post. I actually copied my post into my email thread to them and they're like, "Yeah, I think I check every single one of these boxes, except I do know who you are and if that is a problem for you, then you know, I want to be transparent about that." And I was like, "I will take the leap of faith if you like check all of those boxes for the most part, then I am okay with it."
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll be curious to hear.
PATRICK CASALE: I will probably text you afterwards and let you know.
MEGAN NEFF: I think this is why people like, I know you don't listen to podcasts and I listen to some, but mostly in different spaces where people are like, this feels like a different podcast. Maybe it's because we talk about ourselves. Here's my experience of therapy, here's yeah, no, but I like, because there's a lot of vulnerable questions that come up around these things or even talking about like, yeah, I'm someone who provides for both of us, like provide education in the space and I do therapy. I've still got issues people. Like, there's some vulnerability there.
PATRICK CASALE: I always thought that was the whole point of this podcast was just to have like vulnerable, real, relatable conversations to help just affirm and normalize things. Because, I mean, I haven't worked as a therapist in almost three years, a little over three years now. And the amount of people who really believe that your therapist has it all together and they are like, it's like pristine members of society. It's almost like this [CROSSTALK 00:41:24]-
MEGAN NEFF: You don't struggle. Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: And it's like no. I mean, if anyone is representing themselves that way, I would be really concerned. I would be…
MEGAN NEFF: But I wonder is there a fantasy there, right? Like, do we need to see our, because idealization, this is a defense. Do we need to trust a therapist? Do many of us need to see them that way? Like, you don't struggle with this thing I'm talking about. You've figured it out. You've got it together. You're holding space for me.
So, I also wonder how much, I mean, some of that is like as a field, you know, until recently we don't talk about self of therapist openly very much. But I think there might be also, maybe some of us, like I do that with my therapist. And like I know better, I am a therapist, but of course there's this tendency to idealize of like, yeah, well he's not going to understand that struggle.
PATRICK CASALE: Right. Totally. I think that's a hundred percent valid. I know there are professions where I do want to have that, like, ideological fantasy where doctors, airplane [CROSSTALK 00:42:38]. I'm like, yeah, they have no issues, no medical, no mental health, no substance use.
MEGAN NEFF: They're perfect.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah., in my brain they're perfect. And I know that is very, very inaccurate. But I need to believe it. I need to believe that the person doing open-throat surgery on me doesn't struggle with major anxiety or drinking. Like, I just need to believe that they're going to have like a super steady hand when they're cutting my throat open. I need to believe that every time I get on a plane the pilot doesn't have severe insomnia or whatever else. I just need to believe it. So, that makes sense.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. It does. It does. Yeah.
Okay. I feel like I'm now wanting to jump back to the conversation because it's existing in an itchy way of like, we've named this thing and there's not an easy resolution, right. There's not an easy resolution to, like, we'll do this five-step program and then you're going to believe you're enough.
PATRICK CASALE: We could start selling it though. Maybe that's a new business plan.
MEGAN NEFF: I mean that's why there are Instagram therapists who, you know, that is their whole thing.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, true.
MEGAN NEFF: Like, do this-
PATRICK CASALE: Totally.
MEGAN NEFF: Okay. But I do feel like we like opened it and then it's just there. So, there's an idea, Dr. Judith Joseph, do you know who that is?
PATRICK CASALE: Mm-mm (negates).
MEGAN NEFF: She's big on TikTok and Instagram and like has done stuff with Oprah I think. I've been on her podcast a couple times and she has this term. At first, I didn't like it because I associated it to high-functioning autism, but it's called high-functioning depression. And she, I think, like, was the researcher who looked into this, who kind of clinically defined it. And she talks openly about her past experience, but it really is this idea, this hyper productivity as a way of addressing trauma and that can lead to what she calls high-functioning depression.
So, her book I think just came out or is coming out. So, I've been tracking her stuff and that's been part of this lens I've been thinking through around when a core driver is I'm not good enough and how that can drive us to things like high-functioning depression or mental health conditions because we are frantically trying to fix something in us that perhaps we don't even realize is there. Maybe we don't even have insight into how this core belief is a core driver in our life.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Actually, that name now rings a bell because I think you mentioned them to me before about coming on here. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me for sure. And I think, again, like frantically trying to, even when we are subconsciously, or even yeah, subconsciously trying to fix something that we don't even know is there, or when we're experiencing something that we really just can't pinpoint or really like confidently define. I get that. It feels really real to have maybe like compounded complex PTSD from childhood experience and then throughout your life, constantly trying to fix a wound or offset some mental health struggle, and convincing yourself, like, if I do more, if I create more, you know, if I pursue more, then all of a sudden this will like disappear, or it will dissipate, or it won't be as intense.
MEGAN NEFF: I just had a really weird association, bear with me. So, back when I was you know, religious and studying my masters of divinity, the part that was really interesting to me was Ancient Near Eastern literature. And in Ancient Near Eastern texts, there is a word that's used for greed. And I think the meaning of it is like, kind of a, can't remember what kind of creature it was, but a creature who constantly is stuffing their mouth but never full. And in some of the wisdom text, it talks about how, like, this is the problem with lack of contentment is it creates a sort of greed where it's stuffing self but never full. And how, like, that's what leads to suffering in the world.
And we could look at that, right? Like ecologically, that's what humans have done to the planet. Like, that is like the problems with capitalism. It's, I am stuffing, I want more and more and I'm never full. I'm never satisfied. And the more I stuff, actually, like, the more I want.
And that this is, I think, part of the human condition for many of us, is that that longing for more and more and more. And it never statutes in the way that we want it to. And until we can, like, existentially wrestle with that, and understand that, and understand what's driving that for us, I think many, many of us do, or I'll talk for myself, like I do struggle with contentment because there's that illusion of, well if I just feed myself with this thing, then I will be full [INDISCERNIBLE 00:47:58].
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally relatable. I think that's a great reference point. Yeah, totally relatable. I think that does feel like a lot of human existence and experience for a lot of people in one form or another. Yeah. And I do think being able to existentially identify that and make sense of that is important as well. Yeah, absolutely.
MEGAN NEFF: So, we're not going to offer a five-step program because we haven't developed it yet.
PATRICK CASALE: Once we do though.
MEGAN NEFF: Oh, once we do, 50% off. But I am, let's talk about like how we are with these experiences in ways that are helpful for us.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: So, like-
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:48:45] are doing what we said we were going to do back in the day of like, let's not leave episodes. Like, just [CROSSTALK 00:48:53]-
MEGAN NEFF: Like, life sucks people, here you go. Have a nice day.
PATRICK CASALE: All right, yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, there are some ways, like I still have work to do on this, but there also are ways like I am with this differently. I think one thing, I love the word multiplicity and you know, we've talked about IFS a lot in this, the idea of we are made up of multiple parts. So, I think one of the things… I'm doing a lot better job of connecting with whatever part is active. So, like if I'm feeling anxious about something instead of swatting away, I'd be like, "Oh, Okay. Hi there. What going on? Tell me what's up? What information do you have for me about either how I'm feeling or maybe about my values, something that's important to me."
I do a lot of, I think I've probably talked about it on here before too, like flipping the coin is what I call it of, if I'm ruminating on something or if I'm anxious about something, then flipping the coin to what's the meaning behind that? What's the value behind it? Dr. Steven Hayes, who's the founder of Acceptance Commitment Therapy, has talked about we hurt where we care. So, if I'm hurting, if I'm anxious, I will literally, like right now you can see me, but listeners can't. I'll often put a hand to my chest and I'll like, "Okay, I'm flipping the coin. Oh, you're, you're anxious about this because you really care about whatever it is." And it doesn't make the anxiety go away and that's not the point. But I get more grounded in that experience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.
MEGAN NEFF: So, that's one thing I do.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that. And I do that as well to some degree about, like, I don't look at, you know, also doing a lot of IFS work, internal family systems, for those of you who don't know what that means. I have done a lot of parts work and trying to acknowledge that there are no bad parts. And that they all exist for a reason. They're all rooted in something that feels like it's important or meaningful. And sometimes it is about like, how do we acknowledge that part, that anxiety part, that shame part, whatever it is. And just saying like, at this point, like, in this moment, I appreciate that you're trying to protect me and I also like, it's just not useful or I don't need that right now. And really trying to identify when I do need that part, and when it's like you're being really loud, and it's because something is unresolved, or I'm just experiencing something that might be a raw spot, et cetera. I love doing timeline exercises, like visual timelines for me. As someone who is like a former addict, timelines are so helpful for me to say.
Like, if I zoom out and I think life is horrible right now and, and I'm really freaking struggling, and I zoom out of that, not to minimize that it might not be, but to acknowledge that back in like 2004 to 2012 when I was an active gambling addiction, life was horrific. And I can look at like how bad it was and how I can like reprocess some of those memories, and also jump to other blips on the timeline to kind of comparatively say, okay, yeah, life is really hard right now for whatever reason, or it's really sad, or it's really grief written or whatever. And I also acknowledge like it doesn't feel as horrific as it was when I was in that space because those were some bleak, bleak times.
So, just being able to offer that for myself and like, you know, being able to hit those milestones or even like look at markers on the timeline and say like, okay, graduation in 2017, fast forward to 2025. Damn, some of the stuff that's happened in life has been pretty amazing like since that time. So, it's helpful for me to kind of reframe and readjust perspective at times.
MEGAN NEFF: I love that, the timeline. And to you thinking about it and using it in that way intentionally of, okay, I know this moment is hard and let me zoom out.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And that doesn't mean like moments in current day aren't horrible at times. You know, like that's certainly a valid experience too. But it allows me to at least anchor into like, knowing that I've been able to get through stuff as well. And stuff that felt pretty impossible if I was to rewind the tape, so to speak.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting, I wouldn't have had a name for it, but I have done that a lot with pain experiences because it's ebbed and flowed, but had definitely seasons of a lot of chronic pain. And I'll refer back to like, okay, yes, I'm having pain today and then I will refer back to higher pain points. And it's comforting of like, yes, this isn't uncomfortable. And like, okay, it's not that bad. Or I survived that.
And yeah, partly, it brings because we can get pulled into like a helplessness when things are hard of like, it'll always be hard. And so that's what depressed mind's so good at pulling us into that helplessness.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure.
MEGAN NEFF: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:54:15] be like, not in a gross, toxic, positive way, but in a, like, yeah, I've done hard things. I can do hard things. Like there's resilience here.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:54:27].
MEGAN NEFF: That can be really powerful. There will be more hard things. Yeah. I mean, I think, I've seen other people talk about this, this idea of like happy getting conflated with, you know, being comfortable or being like, I think even our idea of what a good life is has kind of gotten warped by some of the messaging we have. Yeah, yeah.
Also, when there's people that I hear about and are close to and respect and I know if they've gone through something similar, and hard, and survived it, I'll also bring them to mind. Especially, with shame if someone's experienced, yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: You know, I respect and appreciate that one a lot just because I know you and I have often talked about like shame experiences and shameful moments in our lives. And you've talked a lot about the religious perspective in some ways and there's a lot of shame in that arena and for a lot of different reasons or people, and other reasons that have happened, you know, throughout life for us.
And that's one of the emotional experiences that I've really struggled with. So, it is helpful sometimes to anchor into and resource with like friends or colleagues or people I really care about or respect who I know who have also gone through periods of shamefulness, or shame spirals, or whatever we want to call it. And it's like, okay.
Again, I think for me, helping like "normalize" the human experience or validate the human experience is really important for my mental health to be like, you are not the only one in it.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And that this actually weaves you into the human experience, you know, and connects you to others who have experienced similar things. Yeah, yeah.
There's a poem, I can't remember it, but it's something about yeah, getting woven into the human experience and suffering and compassion. It's a beautiful poem. I'll probably go look for it. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it, but things that remind us, like, yeah, this is actually, other humans have experienced this, and survived this, and this actually connects me in a tender way to the human experience.
PATRICK CASALE: For sure. Yeah. Super relatable for me. You know, that's something I will probably anchor into when I'm doing my TEDx to bring it full circle is to really interweave like the pain, and the vulnerability, and the suffering, and the struggle to help other people interweave or kind of interject, that's not the right word, to move into that human experience piece where they might feel really lonely, or different, or disconnected, or like, I'm the only one who has had this experience or these experiences. And it's a goal that I often try to move towards because I think it's so painful when you're in that position of I am the only one who experiences or has experienced A, B and C and it makes you feel even more different than you already feel a lot of the time.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just learned a new term. I was a clinician who was on the clinical call in the Nook this month, and they used the term undoing aloneness, which I loved. And so, then I looked it up and it comes from AEDP, which is a form of therapy. But it's the idea that when we feel our emotions deeply in connection to others, we are undoing aloneness. And I love that.
And like, ideally, I think we're doing that in relationship, but sometimes also there's something about tapping our experience into the fabric of humanity that can also provide a sense of that. And that's what I'm hearing when you're talking about this, that you want to tap into some of that energy and that shared human experience.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. That's definitely it. And I like that too, undoing aloneness. I like that a lot.
MEGAN NEFF: I think it's, I will look it up because it will bug me afterwards. It is Diana Fascia. Diana Fascia is the person who I believe coined that term.
PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:59:04].
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. well, we've been talking for a while, so I do, okay, well, does it feel like we we're leaving anything? I mean, of course we're not neatly wrapping this up because that's not what we do [CROSSTALK 00:59:22]-
PATRICK CASALE: No, I feel like we went all over the place for a little while, then you reigned it back in. And I think it feels good to me. Do you have other, as you call them, itchy or sticky thoughts?
MEGAN NEFF: Well, I do feel like I should say this. And if we can process it and if we can wrap. So, you're an Enneagram six, so relationship like and support matters. So, my sense after Belize, I knew you knew it was a big deal for me to travel. And so, I did decide to come to your TED talk, told Arielle I'm coming.
PATRICK CASALE: Oh, no. So, she was-
MEGAN NEFF: She was, no, she wasn't supposed to tell you, because I was like, I wanted it to be a surprise in the sense of like, I want Patrick, like I'm sure he'll be anxious and I want him to feel like deeply supported as he goes on. And I want him to know like that, even if he's like, this is not a big deal, that I'm like, this is a big deal, and it's a big deal that I'm even going to travel, and I'm going to come see it. But then I was also like, but is it the kind of surprise that would throw him off? I definitely don't want to do that.
And so, it's maybe good that she accidentally slipped because it sounds like it would've thrown you off if like you went on and you just like see me in the audience, and it's like, "What the hell are you doing here Megan Anna?"
PATRICK CASALE: That is so funny. And I love how quickly she tried to walk that back of like, "Oh no, I didn't mean to say that." Like, I was like, "How could you mistakenly type that out?" Cassie, if you listen to this, you have done two treacherous acts now where you replace my image for the Scotland Summit with Arielle's and now this. And I just feel like. Yeah, okay. Joking aside, that's very kind of you, that's very sweet of you to do that. And I know how much it takes for you to travel, so that really does mean a lot to me. So, I appreciate you wanting to support me in that way.
MEGAN NEFF: Also, like if it does make you too anxious, I can stay back in the Airbnb. I can watch virtually.
PATRICK CASALE: No, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, I imagine, and here's another reframe, not to get off track, for any of you in spots like this or in situations, I do now practice and exercise, not just for this event, for everything that I do that I'm nervous about to rationalize and acknowledge that however it happens, good, bad, ugly, et cetera, there's going to be a next thing that I'm moving on to or like that's happening in life, right? And it just helps me realize like, okay, you're so anxious, you're so overwhelmed about this, you think it's going to suck, and guess what? It's going to be 15 minutes of your life. And then, life is going to continue happening.
And that has really helped me with some of these experiences to be like, I'm allowing myself to feel nervous, vulnerable, overwhelmed, anxious, because that is really a driving force for me in terms of like, like you mentioned, acknowledging that I really care deeply about what I'm doing and helps me with creating more of that sense of belonging. And 15 minutes after it happens, I will have like a rush of adrenaline, and a crash. And then, life will continue happening. And like I can live with both of those spaces and acknowledge that. And that's really helpful for me.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. I love that you can live in the tension of all of that.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm like, all right, if it's the worst TEDx of all time and I feel some shame about it, or discomfort, or vulnerability, or embarrassment, whatever, or guilt for having almost 40 friends and colleagues traveling to Colorado Springs in the middle of February to support me, which I deeply appreciate, once it's over, like, it's okay. And then I think that's important for anyone, but for me that is something I anchor into as well.
MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. That it will be over and at the time, like I've seen graphs of this, of like a time graph of how big this feels today. Like, say you do something awkward and embarrassing and it be a huge circle. Like this feels huge. Or if your TEDx talk goes bad, it'll feel terrible that day. And first of all, I don't think it will, but if it does.
PATRICK CASALE: Sure.
MEGAN NEFF: And then like a week later it'll be a little bit smaller.
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly.
MEGAN NEFF: And then a month later, a little bit smaller. And every time I have a big thing that feels like a big deal, I'll do that. I'll be like, okay, how will this feel in a week? How will this feel in a month? How will this feel in a year? And I'm like, "Okay."
PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. Yep. And that's-
MEGAN NEFF: It's like the opposite of the timeline. It's like a forward [INDISCERNIBLE 1:04:06]-
PATRICK CASALE: Yep, it's just like that trajectory into the future of acknowledging like any year from now am I going to be thinking about this TEDx? Probably not. Unless I do something like that goes viral because it's embarrassing, then yes, I probably will be thinking about it for a long time. I love when delivery drivers come into our porch because our Shih Tzu handle that. I'm really glad I told you about this ransom note-looking document now, because you're going to be in the audience and you're probably maybe going to see it and part of the document has your name on it. So, I remember like, to reference the quote that I'm referencing. So, I would be really weird if you were like, what the hell does that mean? And now-
MEGAN NEFF: Why is my name on Patrick's ransom note?
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. So, okay. Really glad to end on this note. Not going to think about this for the next 12 days of my life, and I guess I'm going to see you twice in less than a month, month and a half.
MEGAN NEFF: Month and a half. Yeah, yeah.
PATRICK CASALE: The rainforest of Belize to the frozen tundra's of Colorado.
MEGAN NEFF: And I learned something, you don't like surprises or this would not have been a like… And I was wondering, I was like, should I text? I was thinking I would probably text you the day before. So, it wasn't like you were seeing me when you were on stage for the first time, but I was like debating if it would be, I wanted it to be something you felt like when the anxiety was high, like towards the end that you felt some extra support. But-
PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate that.
MEGAN NEFF: But surprise is not maybe your language.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm not good at receiving surprises. I don't know how to react to them ever. And we don't need to diver into this right now, but like, and I reference this in my TEDx, like I don't know how to react to gifts. I don't know how to react to like surprises because it always feels like it's the wrong reaction. Whether I was like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." "Ooh, is that too much?" Or if I just like stood there like completely vacant, and like flat, and expressionless to it, would that hurt your feelings? Like, I hate surprises. So, I'm really lucky we had this conversation.
MEGAN NEFF: And I would've told you over text for that reason. Yeah. Like, it was just a matter of when, when I tell you.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I feel really bad for Arielle and like her surprise gifts that she's tried to give me over the last 10 years because every time it's the wrong reaction. And it's always just like, I might appreciate it in a day or two or a week or two. It's not going to be in the moment where I'm going to be able to give you what you need.
But yeah. No. Cool. Well I'm looking forward to seeing you. We've gone all over the place today, as Megan said before, and I don't know what we'll record about next week when we meet, but we'll figure it out. I'm not wrapping this up smoothly. I haven't done it in a while. So, yeah. Thanks for listening to Divergent Conversations. Episodes are out on Fridays and all major platforms and YouTube. And goodbye.
