Episode 18: Autistic Unmasking: Redefining Identity and Authentic Self-Discovery

Identity is complex and interwoven into the world around us. But as Autistic individuals who wear a mask, identity is often not entirely shaped by ourselves. Late in life discovery of autism or ADHD can set off a cascading journey of self-discovery and identity exploration. Once we start to embrace our authentic selves and explore our identity, everything can change.

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, dive into the topic of exploring identity as late-diagnosed Autistic individuals and discuss the process of exploration and claiming an identity that embraces all our neurodivergent uniqueness, how it impacts and changes daily life and choices, and how it can shift both new and old relationships.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand what unmasking and redefining identity can look like, as well as how it can impact both internal and external experiences, preferences, and relationships.
2. Discover how breaking free from a "mask" identity can allow autistic individuals to explore their creative side, set boundaries, and authentically accept their autistic identity.
3. Learn how to use pleasure and play to explore identity and discover your most authentic self.

Give yourself permission to explore uncomfortable emotions and experiences. Be curious, dive into the things that give you pleasure, and detach from others' expectations to unlock new paths of self-awareness and understanding.

Resources

What is Masking in Autism? Autistic Masking Explained (blog post): https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/what-is-masking-in-autism?rq=masking

Neuroqueer Heresies: Notes on the Neurodiversity Paradigm, Autistic Empowerment, and Postnormal Possibilities by Dr. Nick Walker (book): https://neuroqueer.com/neuroqueer-heresies 

Autistic Masking Workbook:

As a podcast listener, you can use this coupon code to enjoy a 25% discount on the individual workbook or the workbook for clinicians.

• For Personal Use, use coupon code: Unmasking25 here (https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/autistic-masking)
• For Clinical Use, use code: Unmasking25-Clinical here (https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/autistic-masking-therapy-resources)

 

---

Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone, you are listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick Casale.

MEGAN NEFF: And I'm Dr. Neff.

PATRICK CASALE: And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health, and there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So, we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

MEGAN NEFF: Are we going to start this conversation, Patrick? 

PATRICK CASALE: I like that. 

MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 00:00:15] I mean, I was like, "Oh, snap. I'm supposed to have the social lubricant here and ease this into a organic conversation." But I'm terrible at that.

PATRICK CASALE: I think about it as like the scene in Talladega Nights, if you've ever seen it, where Will Ferrell is like, "I don't know what to do with my hands." When he's on an interview. And like, "Just put your hands down." He's like, "Like this?"

MEGAN NEFF: Wait, oh my gosh, that has actually, like, destroyed my life. Right now my hands are in my pocket. My whole life I either, like I used to wear skirts a lot, which is interesting because I'm very gender-neutral in how I dress now. But it had to have pockets. So, I always had pockets or a coffee mug, like a travel mug with me. Otherwise, like, my hands, I didn't know what to do with my hands.

PATRICK CASALE: That's why I am always fidgeting with something in my hands or like, my dog is laying next to me right now, so I'm just petting him. He's not enjoying it. But I am like, so yeah, I am with you on that. 

So, I think today I can provide the social lubricant, is that we are going to do a two-part series on identity. And part one is going to be our own thoughts on identity, unmasking, etc. And part two is we're going to read some questions that came into our social media accounts and try to give some overview and depth into those.

MEGAN NEFF: Thanks for providing the thesis, for doing what my brain cannot do this morning. 

PATRICK CASALE: That's [CROSSTALK 00:01:46]-

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I don't know about you, Patrick, but identity, this is a really interesting topic to me. I think it's something I've been thinking about and talking about since the beginning of my autistic discovery because I think, especially, when you come at it later in life, so I was 37 when I self-discovered and then was diagnosed, there's a whole lot of life to unpack. And with that, a lot of core identities get kind of reshuffled in the mix. And I see this happen all the time, right? I work with a lot of people through the diagnosis process, the unmasking process, and it's a pretty intense identity exploration for a lot of people.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's very intense. And I was 35, so about the same age as you. And I think that it starts to, I think, well, my brain has so many thoughts in it right now. Number one is, I think that autistic people, especially, are so analytical, and there's constantly this existential questioning happening, no matter whether you know that you're autistic or not. Like, it's constantly a process. 

And number two is once you find out that you are in fact autistic, it can start to unravel these things that you thought you knew about yourself or believed about yourself. And then it becomes very hard to almost separate like, what is autistic trait tendency characteristic versus what is my actual identity? Are they intertwined? Do they overlap? 

A lot of us are using identity-first language in an affirmative sense. So, I know for myself now I almost introduce myself as an autistic ADHD entrepreneur, person, therapist, whatever. So, it's really a complicated conversation.

MEGAN NEFF: Okay, so that gets into, okay, my brain is also divergent. I think because this is such a big topic. So, like, what I heard in that of how you introduce yourself, you are integrating a new identity. So, that's task one, I would say. And these are not linear, I'm putting them into tasks to try and create some structure here. 

Task two or another task I often see is rethinking old identities. So, like, for example, for me, my gender identity, my sexual identity, my religious identity, my professional identity, all were on the table as I was also integrating a new identity. So, it's deconstructing old identities and re-conceptualizing them through an autistic… Well, through an autistic lens, but it's more like, once I learned to break free then there was like a, I want to use the word queering here. Like, I think learning I was autistic taught me how to queer my identity. It taught me how to think more critically, and constructively, and playfully about my identity, and that's contagious when that starts to happen. 

And then there can be this domino effect where all identities, or several identities start getting queered. So, queering, it means to challenge perhaps a common held narrative or social norm. It often uses storytelling, but it is a way of kind of subverting the socio-norms or the social norms. I'm sure there's other people that can describe it more succinctly. Nick Walker's work, if you're interested in the concept of neuroqueering will be a great resource. And we should add that to our notes, Patrick?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so it sounds like thinking about your identity from a lens where things start to blend that are no longer commonly clear, or sometimes even socially acceptable in terms of how we may have developed or how society sends messages as well. 

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: I think for a lot of people identity becomes an uncomfortable conversation, in terms of like, I don't even know what my identity is, which is why so many people often default to like, "My identity is my profession, my identity is my role in the family system." 

And you never really fully, truly step back and think about like, "Really, what is my identity? How do I identify? What is it made up of?" Because there are all of these different characteristics, and traits, and belief systems, and things that are important to you that create your identity. 

And it's a complex conversation. And I think it's one that makes a lot of people really uncomfortable. And once you receive a diagnosis or self-diagnose, I do think you start to explore your identity through that lens. And like you said, first and foremost, like, identifying through that neurodivergent lens, and then putting these pieces together. And I think there are a lot of pieces to unpack for a lot of people.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so, I'll share my experience. And also, I see this experience a lot. So, my mask, right? It was all about fitting in, taking up less space, not drawing attention to myself, unless it was for my accomplishments. So, it was very tied… 

It's interesting, in some ways, I was always willing to challenge social norms, but at the same time, my mask was very, like norm-driven. Like, I wanted to not draw attention to myself. And so once that got deconstructed of like, actually, all of this is kind of garbage and I'm liberated to be me, a lot of identity ripples came with that. 

And I see that a lot, which I think is hard on family systems. If a person is partnered, it can be hard on the partnership. I think it's confusing for the people around the person of like, you discovered this one thing about you, but you've completely changed. But it actually makes a lot of sense when you think about going from a constricted narrative of self to an open narrative of self that is to question things.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really well said. I think that's actually like hitting the nail on the head with that sentiment of going from constricted to open. And I think that what we're really trying to draw attention to is the correlation and connection between unmasking and identity, and how often they go hand in hand because when you are able to safely unmask, you are able to really start to become much more aware of the things that you enjoy, the ways that you move through the world. You no longer have to put on this facade about like, this is how I present, this is how I dress, this is how I look, this is how I speak. 

So, it really can be a complete mind fuck in a lot of ways of like, okay, now that there is this openness and this understanding, that can create a lot of internal confusion too of like, "Do I even like the things that I said I liked, or used to like, or participate in?" And then you're like, "Do I even know myself?"

Like, I know that I've been in that stage for, maybe last year was a place where I really was deeply in embedded and entrenched in the like, "Do I even understand what I enjoy doing for fun? Or who I enjoy spending time with?" Like, I made me question everything.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I experienced something similar. And I see that a lot. And that's part of that like social diffuse self, right? That comes with a mask of all of a sudden it's like, wait, what does bring me pleasure? What do I like? What are my preferences? Which sounds so basic and simple, but it's so complex? Yeah. 

So, I'm curious, okay. We've been kind of talking up here. Let's bring it back to like our experience. How have you changed both in kind of maybe like day-to-day basic, like, what you wear? What music you listen to? But also, conceptually, how you think about yourself? Like, what identity shifts have you experienced in the last year and a half?

PATRICK CASALE: I'm going to start with the easier portion of the question, which is like, how has my day-to-day changed? And I think like I've given myself permission to be open about my experiences that, you know, as an autistic ADHD human, I think that my clothing choices have changed drastically to really be sensory soothing. I definitely have started wearing more colors, too. I feel like used to be very muted. I think like very, like you said, not taking up space, not drawing attention to yourself. So, my wardrobe for so long was like black, blue, gray. And my wife was always like, "Do you want like a pattern or do you want anything?" I'm like, "No, I don't want any of that."

MEGAN NEFF: We went opposite directions with clothing. I went from colorful to black.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I've really embraced brighter colors. And just like being more open, I think in terms of like the creative portion of myself, too. And the part of myself that really enjoys brightness and vibrance too because I think for so long, it was like very, very, very muted. 

I think that, also, what else has changed? Permissions, permissions socially. Giving myself permission. I set boundaries, so say no to even not have to explain myself in social gatherings about whether or not I want to be there, whether or not I want to make eye contact, whether or not I want to participate in conversations. So, I think that a lot has changed like that, in that regard. 

The more nuanced question of like, like how am I viewing myself or identity wise, I don't know, that's so complicated. I still think I'm in this phase where I'm really trying to embrace and openly like, boldly be okay with saying like, "This is who I am, and this is my identity, I am autistic." And I think that I'm just trying to be okay with taking up space because for so long, I never felt like that was something I was able to do or that I was capable of.

MEGAN NEFF: I love that. There's been a lot of change in the last year and a half.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a lot change, for sure.

MEGAN NEFF: How has your wife and other key people in your life responded to that change?

PATRICK CASALE: My wife's been really a great support in that, in terms of like never really questioning anything. She doesn't like do a whole deep dive in terms of like, I would love for her to learn more about the autistic ADHD neuro type. I do think that she has been very supportive in my choices and like has really allowed me to say, "No, I don't want to go to this family gathering. No, I don't want to go to your friend's birthday party." Like, really being okay with that. 

So, she's been easy and that's come, honestly, pretty expectedly. Friendship-wise, I think that I've noticed the more open I've been, the more communicative I've been with my friend groups, the more I've attracted the friends that are neurodivergent, that are definitely autistic ADHD or one of one of the two. And I just noticed that, you know, I definitely have lost some friendships too from just maybe their own discomfort, or ableism, or just the inability to say like, I don't want to hear about this. Like, I don't want to talk about this.

MEGAN NEFF: It's become all of who you are. That's something I hear, like, people talk about the feedback they get a lot of like this has become all, like, reductionistic. People will accuse the typically autistic more so than ADHD like, "This has become all of who you are." Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: What about you? How has [CROSSTALK 00:16:02]-

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, gosh.

PATRICK CASALE: …shifted for you along this way of like your discovery in the last [PH 00:16:07] five years?

MEGAN NEFF: I really wish like we could go back and you could, like, meet masked Megan Anna and that I can meet masked Patrick. 

One, I was a lot more feminine and a lot of color. I wore, like, skirts. It's really interesting. There's something about presenting feminine to the world that was pretty baked into my mask that I'm kind of still sorting out. Very, like, high achieving. I was, you know, going through graduate program, so very people pleasing, kind of like, "Tell me what to do, I'll do it." 

I rehearsed so much. So, I would probably spend hours, like, scripting and rehearsing. So, my language use, it is less scripted now. And so, even I mean, I've talked about this, when I listen to this podcasts back is really different than what would have been before. 

For me, autistic discovery did lead to more exploration around gender. And I know we're going to do an episode soon on gender and sexuality, but kind of broadly, so I use she/they pronouns, and then identify, probably, a gender I think captures it most closely, I connect to some experiences. Like, I connect to the experience of being an autistic woman or the experience of being a mom, but I don't feel connected to my gender, and I now have language, or I don't feel connected to the idea of being a woman. And then I have language for that. And then the way I dress, and the energy I embody. I feel like I embody that versus the really feminine mask. 

Sexuality, I've embraced my queer identity as a pansexual human. That's complicated. I'm in a, you know, hetero monogamous marriage, but even just the ability to explore what is my sexual, like, experience as a human is something that I would have had so much repression around. And like, impression management. I would say I just had a ton of impression management going all the time. 

What other? Similar to you, I'm more sensory soothing. Like, cloths, everything. I go out in the world a lot less, which you know, I talk about this a lot on the podcast. So, I just don't push myself to do things that exhaust me in the same way that I used to. 

I talk about mental health struggles in a way I never ever thought in my wildest dreams I would disclose. The fact that I disclose my past history with depression, suicidality, self-harm, those were things I had so much shame about, but because I now understand them, I can talk about them openly. 

So, just, I would say a general openness that terrified me before, that's new. And so I mean, the idea that we even do this podcast and talk so vulnerably, like, if you had shown this to me five years ago, I would have been horrified that my future self was doing this.

PATRICK CASALE: Now that your future self is present self and doing this, how is it for you to experience being open and vulnerable with the world because there are lots of people all over the world listening to you talk?

MEGAN NEFF: You know, just not thinking about it is helpful. So, thanks for putting that thought in my head, Patrick. 

I mean, honestly, though, I think because now it's not the Megan Anna narrative, it is a narrative that wraps into a much larger narrative, which is undiagnosed autistic adults, specifically, undiagnosed autistic women. Again, that's where I do feel attached to that experience of being an undiagnosed autistic girl growing up. 

And so, it doesn't feel like I'm sharing my narrative, it feels like, you know, it's part of this tapestry of a much larger narrative. And that gives me a reason to show up vulnerably. And without that reason, and without it being part of something larger than me, yeah, there's no way in hell I could do this.

PATRICK CASALE: I give you a lot of credit because I know starting out the conversation was I want to be able to drop in, and share some of this, and be more personable instead of more cognitive. I think you've really embodied that, which, you know, I think that, again, coming back to your statement of openness, you just use the word openness again. So, it really is going from that constricted, like, everything has to be really, I have to be vigilant about how I do everything. And even the things that I don't enjoy doing, I almost have to force myself through them, right? 

Like, and that comes to mind for me socially up until the last couple of years. And I think that's where I always struggled the most was socially and with sense of self as most of us do. And I really think that it's allowed me to identify in a way that has just, when I think of openness, I almost think of the word permission, and I just think about permission to just be myself. And it's still a process. Like, it's not a binary process, it's not a linear process of like, identity exploration. I think I'm still trying to find that true identity that I can really exist within, feel comfortable with. And that's just a work in progress. And I think that's a constant, almost existential questioning, and like analyzing, and introspection, and really being honest with yourself about like, what do I enjoy? What do I like? What are my preferences? When something comes up, am I just people-pleasing? Am I just saying yes, to say yes because I'm so used to, like, having to show up a certain way?

MEGAN NEFF: I love that. You keep going back to, like, preference, and what you like. I think starting with pleasure is so important. Just yesterday, I finally uploaded August workbook, which, oh my gosh, Patrick, I really need to rein it in. I was listening to our podcast from a few episodes ago, where I was like, "These workbooks just keep growing." This ended up being my largest workbook because it's so huge. It's 170 pages which is just, I need to rein it in. 

But on the chapter on unmasking, I start with, like the number one practice is follow your pleasure. And I start with that very specifically because so many of us are dissociated from our bodies, and our pleasure, and are kind of cueing into other people's preferences. That I think is such a powerful place to start with unmasking is to follow your pleasure with curiosity because that's going to tell you a ton about yourself. 

Like, for me, my unmasking, when I look back, like what was my first thing I did that was unmasking? I didn't realize it was unmasking at the time. And this feels like a silly thing to share. But I threw away, like, all of my lacy feminine underwear. 

A, it's uncomfortable AF. B, I don't even know why I ever owned that shit. Like, probably because culture says women should own that kind of stuff. But I threw it away because it's really uncomfortable. And I was like, "I'm never going to wear this." 

And that was a simple step of me following my sensory pleasure, my sensory preferences. And that started a whole rabbit trail of discovering both sensory delight but also gender. And so much of my identity discoveries have started by following my pleasure with curiosity.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that, I love that. Especially, you know, for everyone listening, that's an easy first step for you to start examining. And again, that gives me the perception, the image. I have this image of the word permission. Like, permission to do that, permission to probably really work through like not feeling ashamed about that, for a society like creating these narratives, to have permission to say like, this is not comfortable for me, I'm not going to do this anymore. 

And I think that's what we're talking about is like, and that can be simply as like, trying really, really hard to just even think about what it's like to experience a day inside and outside of your body. 

Like, I think about that so often as so many of us do. And the proprioceptive and interceptive just experiences, but I am constantly thinking about, like, what it's like to even be in my body. And I don't think I've ever been so aware of that in my life. And it's almost permission to just be uncomfortable being uncomfortable. And-

MEGAN NEFF: Uh-huh.

PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead because you [CROSSTALK 00:25:39]-

MEGAN NEFF: Oh, no, I love that, permission to be uncomfortable. How did you say it? Permission to be comfortable being uncomfortable? 

PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative.)

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. There's an acceptance that comes with permission that you're identifying versus resistance, which yeah, constriction resistance go together. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, absolutely. So, it's like, I think, for me, and for so many people I've talked to the permission with being uncomfortable, like, permission being comfortable with being uncomfortable because like, I'm not going to change this discomfort, this feeling that I constantly experience for the most part, but I can at least give myself permission to be comfortable with the fact that that is my reality and that is okay. 

And that has given me permission to just be like, I am uncomfortable. I'm noticing that. Like, I'm really noticing that moment by moment, I'm experiencing this feeling, or this emotion, or this sensation, and this is like, almost every day of my life. But it's okay because like, I'm not fighting so hard to change how I feel.

MEGAN NEFF: Right, right, right. Yes, I have a story. I think I've shared it on this podcast before of like walking to get the mail. And instead of just like, you know, constricting my body, and like dissociating, and sprinting down to the mailbox, I let myself experience the sensory, like, elements. Let myself experience being overloaded, but with openness. 

And I think this is so huge of creating space to be uncomfortable and being okay with it. I mean, it sounds a lot like mindfulness, when you talk about it kind of the way you're narrating your experience. 

I had a aha moment maybe like a year ago where I was working on some mindfulness stuff. And I was like, "You know what mindfulness really is when done like this? It's a radical form of self-attunement." Which for a lot of us, we haven't accurately been attuned to by others, by the world, we haven't accurately been able to attune to ourselves because of masking. So, when we can narrate this is an uncomfortable experience for me, I am overwhelmed right now, I'm anxious right now, and when we can self-attune, that's actually pretty radical work. It sounds simple. But that's significant.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree 100%. And I will attribute a lot of this too. Like, you know, we're going to get to this in our second episode today. But a lot of you want to know, like, how do you get to this place? And a lot of it is doing your own work, a lot of it is introspection, but a lot of it has come through also just being in therapy, honestly, almost all of my life. 

And the narratives have shifted, right? Speaking, again, about identity. I, maybe a couple of years ago would have went to therapy for attachment-focused work, like, relational trauma, trauma within the family system, struggles I had growing up as a child, which are all certainly related to an autistic childhood experience without a diagnosis. And I wasn't going to therapy because I was autistic at the time. Now I'm going to therapy to figure out my own neurodivergence, my own experiences as an autistic ADHD human. And I think that has shifted over time as well. And the focal point has shifted too.

MEGAN NEFF: The focal point of your therapy?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, you know, I actually got this from a, I was on a podcast [PH 00:29:20] Divergent Pod and she's the one that gave me this lens, but I loved it. She talked about having the accurate lens and that's what autism diagnosis does. And I've used that language ever since.

And it sounds like you bring that into your therapeutic work. You are perhaps working on the right things but not with the right lens on and now [CROSSTALK 00:29:39]-

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly.

MEGAN NEFF: So, work on those things but with an accurate lens, which totally changes it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yep, spot on. And again, like, it doesn't change how hard the day-to-day is. I just wanted to say that too, for everyone listening. But it does give you the accurate lens and when you have the accurate lens things seem to, like, fit together easier. Like, things fall into place easier. I can make sense of things from a different perspective. And regardless of whether they are challenging or not, it allows me to at least understand them better. And for me and my brain, I need the understanding. Like, I am seeking it all the time.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, I think, I feel like you hit on this at the beginning of our conversation, but that understanding is so foundational, especially, for a lot of autistic people, we need to understand, which is partly what can trigger that kind of huge identity crisis in the aftermath of a self-discovery, or self-diagnosis, or medical diagnosis, or however you get there. 

PATRICK CASALE: However, you get there. I like that. And for those of you listening, like start with Megan's first tip. And also, I just recommend, like, when you are exploring, when you are trying to figure out what do I enjoy? What brings me pleasure? What brings me enjoyment? Double down on it, do more of it. Like, incorporate more of it into your life because we so often just default to what I think I'm supposed to do or like what I'm supposed to say yes to. 

So, I just really recommend that to try to be and like Megan said, curiosity is key as well. And just being curious about your own interests and your own likes. And really, really, really trying not to shame yourself for not knowing at first because I think that's quite typical in the process, when we are starting to explore, especially, later in life, especially, if you've gone through decades of your life, you know, thinking a certain way or experiencing life in one way.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I love that. If I could sum it up in two words, I think I would, pleasure and play. Like, those are two things, I love how you said kind of, like, linger with the things that you enjoy. [INDISCERNIBLE 00:32:06] Winnicott who is a psychoanalytic thinker, I mean, the, okay, you don't even know who Winnicott is. He talked about play. And the way he talks about play is so fascinating. He talks about play is where culture is born, play is where identity is born, play is how a child developmentally learns who they are, play is the place of identity. And so, pleasure and play, that's where unmasking is, that's where identity discovery is.

PATRICK CASALE: And one, I absolutely love that. Two, this is why identity is so complicated and so nuanced because so many of us, especially, who are late diagnosed or diagnosed in adulthood didn't have that ability to have playfulness and attunement as children. And that's why it is so, so hard to identify your identity, your likes, your dislikes as an adult when you did not have that experience in childhood and why it can be so freaking hard to drop into playfulness as an adult.

MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I don't know that I'll have the energy to do this anytime soon, but one project I've had in my head that I thought would be really interesting would be to go through Erickson's Stages of Identity Development, but through a neurodivergent lens to see, like, why we get stunted in certain parts more easily because of being autistic or ADHD. And I think that would actually be really interesting. I think there's a lot of ways being neurodivergent impacts our identity development, but play, like you just highlighted, being such a key one.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I'm not going to hold you to that because I don't want Megan to take on more projects these days, but it's a good idea.

MEGAN NEFF: You sound like my husband. He's like, "I just want you to learn how to take on less." Yeah, yeah, I need. But I mean, it would be really interesting. Someone should do it.

PATRICK CASALE: All can be true. All can be true. So, this is a great wrapping-up point, I think.

MEGAN NEFF: I agree, I concur. 

PATRICK CASALE: You are reading the room correctly.

MEGAN NEFF: You are reading the room correctly.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes. So, what am I awkwardly trying to do right now?

MEGAN NEFF: You're awkwardly trying to end the podcast. And then we're going to stop recording, and then we're going to record another one. But the listeners will hear it next week.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, that's it. All right. Well, thank you so much for listening to the Divergent Conversations Podcast. New episodes are out every single Friday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. And goodbye.